Link this thread next time Narrative makes a massive change with no prior community input.

CupcakeTrap·10/9/2014, 6:48:59 PM·152 votes·7,812 views

http://i.imgur.com/jH0t5rm.png

A basic fact: meaningful community engagement about a change must happen early enough that it can influence that change. Discussion of what's already set in stone is not meaningful community engagement.

Narrative: Allergic To Community Engagement, Addicted To Shock Reveals, Or Both?

Lately, Narrative works exclusively by shock reveals. We hear about upcoming changes through someone at Surrender@20 noticing an updated file. They've gone so far as to say that they were hesitant to speak to us before the retcon of the League of Legends from League of Legends, because if the topic turned that way they'd have to "smoke-bomb" and vanish: as though it were beyond questioning that they couldn't have discussed this truly fundamental change beforehand. Everything, it seems, must be a total surprise.

http://th02.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2012/253/3/5/fiddlesticks_by_dw628-d5ebc89.png SURPRISE! CHECK OUT ALL THIS NEW LORE! YAAAY! … hey, why are you all running? :(

Surprises are exciting, and can be a good option in some circumstances, such as where they're illustrating in more vivid detail an already established event. They are, however, fundamentally incompatible with meaningful community engagement, and are not appropriate where the change is a huge retcon that tears up the foundations rather than building upon them.

Their Actions And Their Words

Narrative has now several times made some immensely destructive retcon, then showed up on the Boards acting surprised at our reaction and assuring us that the lack of prior discussion was simply an oversight on their part. I've asked them point-blank if they've decided to break from the Riot model of community engagement (e.g. on Champion reworks) and go it alone. In reply, they insisted that was not the case, and it really was just a mistake: they wanted to bring us into the discussion, but … forgot. It's hard to imagine that someone would really be so negligent as to "accidentally" fail to notice pages and pages and pages of the lore community trying to reach out. (For example, a lot of us saw the retcon coming, and tried to get Riot to talk about it.) I really don't believe that's what's going on.

Nonetheless, until they officially announce that they do not care about the lore community, I plan to remind them of their pledge every time they violate it.

We've Never Stopped Trying: An Index of Prior Threads

http://i.imgur.com/EuiqXGZ.png You kicked us out of Runeterra and tore years of our creative work to shreds because you thought it might inconvenience you. We're still trying to help.

Here's a partial index of prior threads documenting their failure to engage with us. I plan to keep adding to it as I'm able. There are many examples here of Reds posting, so they obviously know these threads exist … but to date, there have been virtually zero attempts to have a substantive discussion about something that isn't already locked in.

If Riot Does Respect Us

http://i.imgur.com/NsYyNHQ.jpg I think we deserve some respect.

If Riot respects us, we need fewer shock reveals and more meaningful, Riot-style community engagement that takes place early enough in the process to really matter.

Riot has insisted that it respects the lore community. To me, that entails:

  • You respect our investment in the characters, settings, and themes of League … and will harness that as a resource through discussion beforehand, rather than treating our affection for the LoL universe as an obstacle in the way of your Great Lore Plan.
  • You respect the creative work the community has done over the years … and will not casually pull the rug out from under it all without giving us a chance to help you find a better way.
  • You respect our ability to come up with and critique ideas … and will talk to us early enough that our feedback can be part of the process, rather than sound and fury following a fait accompli.

If they respect us as anything more than a passive audience, they need to start talking with us about upcoming retcons and rewrites far enough in advance that we can have a meaningful discussion. It's no good if they only talk about things once they're packaged up and ready to publish; after an enormous sum of money has been spent polishing it up, they're not seriously going to make any real changes. For example, it's too late for the Shadow Isles now. Any discussion that occurs will be primarily limited to "ask us questions, receive playful teasers about what we've already decided!" or "tell us how much you like our new Shadow Isles." So let's talk about the next project, or the one after that.

Follow Riot's Long History Of Community Engagement

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140716213938/leagueoflegends/images/a/a3/Morello.jpg Look into his kind, kind eyes and ask for help. Maybe offer to write a story about Irelia accidentally hacking her own arm off.

If you're genuinely confused, Narrative team, you don't have to look far for good role models. IronStylus is getting to basic concept work on a Taric VU. One of the first things he does: go on the forum and pitch ideas back and forth. Or read through all of the posts from Morello and others concerning Support starvation and the gold income problem that evolved into a major rework of the entire Support role. Or pick a Champion with a rework, and observe highly paid professionals taking the time to argue back and forth on the forum and give serious thought to what the community has to say, and then to incorporate that discussion in a very serious way.

Of course, at the end of the day, the buck stops with you. I understand that. But I also understand that Riot has become the success it has in no small part because of its willingness to leverage the community's passion and insight, even when it requires them to rethink their prior notions of How It Should Be. Look at Morello and healers, for example: there's someone with exceptional talent and strong, well-founded opinions … who nonetheless has been humble enough to look at it from another perspective, and allow his stance to evolve through community engagement.

If your problem is "forgetfulness", then let this thread and others like it be a constant reminder.

If your problem is a lack of role models, walk down the hall and ask anyone not in the Narrative department.

If your problem is that you can't see any other option, start a thread and ask for some.

60 Comments

Lord of Awesome10/9/2014, 8:48:07 PM28 votes

I'm still pretty bummed over all of the Shurima lore changes. Not just in that they invalidated the identities of the characters they'd already made - for example, why does Renekton hate Nasus now? There's no mention of it in the lore - but in that they just straight gutted the amount of content there was. 2 - 3 lines of lore for a character doesn't feel good at all. Stories like Jax's are so much fun to read, and when it's sort of a one-and-done, where you only have to write the lore once, I just don't see much of an excuse for it to be so short. And it's awfully sad.

Ark Angel HFB10/10/2014, 2:58:13 AM27 votes

Jax "Imagine if I had a real lore team."

LordHippoman10/10/2014, 4:44:50 AM21 votes

I think the biggest issue in Lore is consistency. We don't have any guarantee that anything that's stated is really happening for good, or if it will be retconned in a year or so. This is why the retcons are such a big issue. I've been around since Season 1 (around Renekton release) and I can't imagine comparing the stuff I read 4 years ago to what exists now and thinking "This is the same story." I was into the Journal Of Justice, I read all the Bios, I wrote a dumb parody fanfic about Swain and Sion. I was into Lore. It's changed a lot, and I wouldn't say for the better.

All that being said, though, some of the behavior from our end has been downright awful as well. I don't need to mention the threats towards Opeli and Entropy (I think it was Entropy? The guy who was on GD a lot), especially ones that had to do with their personal lives (hobbies, previous work, gender, etc.) being awful and unnecessary, and I certainly don't want to say that's all of our faults. The people who made those threats were people I had never seen in my aforementioned 4 years of Lore nerding. But we still have to own up to basically turning Lore Discussion into a warzone over the past few weeks. A lot of really good posters seem to have been driven away because of backlash due to them supporting the retcon or Riot, even in small capacities. GentlemanGaston, FoolishLantern, etc. And some people have the idea now that it's best to yell at Riot constantly, tell them they aren't real writers, campaign for them to be fired, etc., and I have to say, if I was working at Riot, I sure as hell wouldn't want to talk to these boards.

Riot screwed up. But we also screwed up. I'm not going to start the argument over who screwed up more (It's the people who made death threats over the plot to a video game, but that in no way represents most of us.), but I am going to propose a few ideas for us. OP has a good list of things Riot should be doing, and I'm going to shamelessly crib that concept to do something similar for us.

We Should: -Continue to discuss Lore. Show Riot we're still interested. The retcons are a pretty big downsize, but just letting them know we're into it can help show that it's worth putting work into. Reborn was awesome.

-Keep making community works, with or without retcon inclusion. Some people have written great stories for League. I'm going to be a big dork here and reference "Exaltation To Exile", which is a story my real life friend Bub-Omb started after I told him about League and we got into Lore. It's long now, and he had never written before. Same thing with "Light of Redemption", something another friend of mine, TheLastMessage, started writing when he got into League lore. (You can read them both on FanFiction.net if you want to pay attention to my shameless plugging for friends) And those are just people I know. People are making cool stuff for League every single day. The Summoner's Showcase used to help display that, and I think that's the biggest tragedy. We lost something that showed off how creative our community could be and gained "BIG PLAYS", where we just watch people paid to play video games mash on Riftwalk with Kass for 12 seconds.

-Not harass Riot. Yes, the new lore feels like a downgrade to most of us. Yes, it's hard to trust their word after JoJ canning, Freljord, Trundle, Shurima lores, etc. But yelling does us little good. This is a really well thought out thread, for example, and I'd hate to see people use it as just a quick "gotcha" to Riot to try and "own" them or whatever. Use it as a resource. And it's fine to use constructive criticism (EG: Xerath's lore felt a lot more personal and real when he had motivation to do what he did, and the removal of that really hurts his character), but not pointlessly aggressive "mad posts" (EG: Xerath=Jafar now, god you idiots couldn't fill a cup with creativity, you hacks!)

Communication is a two way street, but I think both sides can cross it if we use more respectful tactics. Also I wonder if there's a character limi

BlazingSalvo10/10/2014, 7:13:55 AM17 votes

I'm still absolutely dumbfounded that a company like Wizards of the Coast used to commission an entire 300+ page NOVEL for every single set 3 times a year, releases webcomics, commissions over A THOUSAND pieces of art for their 4 sets + promos + theme decks every year and that's just Magic. D&D has a ton of novels and even more art itself.

Meanwhile they make less money than Riot.

Riot on the other hand can barely commission all new splash arts for each champion (twitch rework only got a new main splash? we still have to look at the 2009 Shaco and Zilean?) and their lore is basically nonexistent.

There should honestly be 100+ pages of lore for each League champion. I mean, Urza's Saga is like 1200 pages of text, Time Spiral was like 950 pages of text.

Ravnica's lore was so rich they could have had a 300 page novel for each of the 10 guilds and still would have had characters and places to work with.

Yet Riot can't even break a paragraph.

Durmeth the Vile10/10/2014, 3:16:43 AM14 votes

I've concluded that Riot has gone mad with power, and I'm just waiting now to see if they ever come to their senses. I find their excuse that they just need to communicate better pretty weak. What good is it for them to communicate their ideas better if they have already settled on them and just want to tell us about them earlier?

If they want to dialogue about things as you mentioned they sometimes do with updates, and take into account the community notions that would be great. But I'm not seeing it so far and the "just trust us, we're getting better" is pretty hollow now. Narrative has taken a great story that immersed the player, and turned it into generic fantasy arena. Then they claim they wan't me to be able to recognize my favorite champ in whatever media they put them in. Well, Nasus and Renekton aren't the same guys I originally found compelling. Skarner went from being sympathetic and interesting to generic sand critter. And now Hecarim is just some spooky horse that stabs people.

If Riot would like to come show me they have actually cool stories to tell, that would be great. But if I'll be waiting half a year to get one or two tales on the level of this Shurima stereotypical junk, I'll pass thanks.

I guess ultimately, I don't understand Riot's new policy that seems to be, make changes drastically and then ignore protests from the players. Small sections of the player base maybe, but why alienate people from your game? And why expect them to get stoked about upcoming things after you ignore them?

Sure, I'll still play their game. But I'm now far less excited about future champions because at least for the foreseeable future, they don't have much personality to them. I'm not a summoner working in tandem with them so they're just people and creatures beating on each other. I have no further plans to buy any RP to get a skin or champ or anything along those lines in this trend. Just waiting to see how it goes.

HowPlayGAEM10/10/2014, 8:53:48 AM13 votes

Good thread, but the problem is this:

The lore team has ignored everything for ~2 years, and now say they made a mistake in communication. In that two years, lore has stagnated heavily, and recently we learned everything is retconned/deleted. As you yourself said, something like that isn't a "mistake" or "woopsie, we forgot teehee ;)" its deliberate. If they've been behaving like that for so long, I do not think a thread like this will change their mind.

Now champ lore is being replaced by 3 sentences each because of tech issues. Really? This was just discovered? What have they been doing these two years? The Shurima event was planned far in advance, and these tech issues weren't addressed earlier?

Really, I just stopped caring; I have better things to read than Riot's excuses. League's lore is not at such a level where I can believe Riot's "trust us" phrase, and its definitely not at the level where I'm fine with being publicly mocked by Riot Opeli (hur dur I make joke out of lore y dey mad? GD sucks, halp me twitter friendz!!)

Dotintheparadox10/10/2014, 6:10:29 PM8 votes

Although this entire retcon thing just feels wrong, like there is some kind of ulterior motive right now... I don't know, I'm probably just being paranoid, but this feels like some kind of power-play driven by Abernathy-philosophy indoctrination.

...and no matter what, I will remember Yorick

SmokingPuffin10/10/2014, 3:27:17 PM8 votes

Really good OP.

Riot needs to decide if they want meaningful community engagement in lore. If they do, we need the lore equivalent of parrot's ongoing Taric thread before the work is too locked down to change.

CupcakeTrap10/10/2014, 7:54:04 PM5 votes

I cannot believe my cupcake eyes: it looks like the Narrative team is starting to consider public dialogue about Mordekaiser.

Impetual10/10/2014, 8:01:05 AM5 votes

Well written post, filled with good points. Hopefully we can get a Red response here.

Frosty Hoodoo3/16/2015, 10:10:06 PM5 votes

5 months later and nothing seems to have changed. That just isn't right.

TerraRising10/14/2014, 3:46:54 AM4 votes

Here's an update. RiotOpeli doesn't seem to be part of the Narrative team anymore. Her new title is "Project coordinator," or something.

Merxamers10/13/2014, 9:30:28 PM4 votes

I love the recent threads that RiotCarnival (?) made regarding lore stuff; i just feel like i've been burned so many times before. Every new lore event makes things worse, and every time its "Oh sorry, we'll do better."

I believe they're trying; i just want to see something that doesn't punish me for my patience.

Dotintheparadox10/13/2014, 11:55:49 PM4 votes

Cupcake, I'm currently working on a story based off the retconned lore, and I wanted to include some of the RP lore community. I know this doesn't exactly pertain to this thread, but I was wondering if you could tell me if you have a "Summoner's" title, and your favored champion.

I'm also trying to get more names for summoners, and possible politicians as well.

Zyorhist11/25/2015, 8:53:32 PM2 votes

This post begs for a "Don't forget your roots" section comprising of how riot or Moba's even became an existing thing. Fans had an idea and made it into something. continue that concept further forward today and they should be remembering that we are who they used to be.

Velivolo10/17/2014, 9:17:53 PM1 votes

As someone who's been playing for... Less than a year, I really don't understand even half of this discussion.

It's Riot's company. They own it. They're under no obligation to talk to us about their decisions concerning the game. It's definitely nice when they do, and we all love it, but it's kind of annoying to see everyone pitching a fit over it.

Please keep in mind that "Everyone on the forums wanted this!" isn't a valid argument. They've stated before that the forums are a vocal minority, and I'm 100% sure they're right.

Also I'm with Riot on the idea that retconning the whole "summoners" thing was an excellent idea. Did I need a reason for random characters to fight each other in Super Smash Brothers? No. Do most people? I'd bet not. The "Everyone wanders Valoran" thing is kinda weak and definitely needs work, but at least it's way more open ended than "And then he/she/it joined the League!" It seems like they're leaning more toward the lore and the game existing as separate entities, and I think in the long haul it'll make both more enjoyable.