Link this thread next time Narrative makes a massive change with no prior community input.

CupcakeTrap··152 votes·7,812 views

http://i.imgur.com/jH0t5rm.png

A basic fact: meaningful community engagement about a change must happen early enough that it can influence that change. Discussion of what's already set in stone is not meaningful community engagement.

Narrative: Allergic To Community Engagement, Addicted To Shock Reveals, Or Both?

Lately, Narrative works exclusively by shock reveals. We hear about upcoming changes through someone at Surrender@20 noticing an updated file. They've gone so far as to say that they were hesitant to speak to us before the retcon of the League of Legends from League of Legends, because if the topic turned that way they'd have to "smoke-bomb" and vanish: as though it were beyond questioning that they couldn't have discussed this truly fundamental change beforehand. Everything, it seems, must be a total surprise.

http://th02.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2012/253/3/5/fiddlesticks_by_dw628-d5ebc89.png SURPRISE! CHECK OUT ALL THIS NEW LORE! YAAAY! … hey, why are you all running? :(

Surprises are exciting, and can be a good option in some circumstances, such as where they're illustrating in more vivid detail an already established event. They are, however, fundamentally incompatible with meaningful community engagement, and are not appropriate where the change is a huge retcon that tears up the foundations rather than building upon them.

Their Actions And Their Words

Narrative has now several times made some immensely destructive retcon, then showed up on the Boards acting surprised at our reaction and assuring us that the lack of prior discussion was simply an oversight on their part. I've asked them point-blank if they've decided to break from the Riot model of community engagement (e.g. on Champion reworks) and go it alone. In reply, they insisted that was not the case, and it really was just a mistake: they wanted to bring us into the discussion, but … forgot. It's hard to imagine that someone would really be so negligent as to "accidentally" fail to notice pages and pages and pages of the lore community trying to reach out. (For example, a lot of us saw the retcon coming, and tried to get Riot to talk about it.) I really don't believe that's what's going on.

Nonetheless, until they officially announce that they do not care about the lore community, I plan to remind them of their pledge every time they violate it.

We've Never Stopped Trying: An Index of Prior Threads

http://i.imgur.com/EuiqXGZ.png You kicked us out of Runeterra and tore years of our creative work to shreds because you thought it might inconvenience you. We're still trying to help.

Here's a partial index of prior threads documenting their failure to engage with us. I plan to keep adding to it as I'm able. There are many examples here of Reds posting, so they obviously know these threads exist … but to date, there have been virtually zero attempts to have a substantive discussion about something that isn't already locked in.

If Riot Does Respect Us

http://i.imgur.com/NsYyNHQ.jpg I think we deserve some respect.

If Riot respects us, we need fewer shock reveals and more meaningful, Riot-style community engagement that takes place early enough in the process to really matter.

Riot has insisted that it respects the lore community. To me, that entails:

  • You respect our investment in the characters, settings, and themes of League … and will harness that as a resource through discussion beforehand, rather than treating our affection for the LoL universe as an obstacle in the way of your Great Lore Plan.
  • You respect the creative work the community has done over the years … and will not casually pull the rug out from under it all without giving us a chance to help you find a better way.
  • You respect our ability to come up with and critique ideas … and will talk to us early enough that our feedback can be part of the process, rather than sound and fury following a fait accompli.

If they respect us as anything more than a passive audience, they need to start talking with us about upcoming retcons and rewrites far enough in advance that we can have a meaningful discussion. It's no good if they only talk about things once they're packaged up and ready to publish; after an enormous sum of money has been spent polishing it up, they're not seriously going to make any real changes. For example, it's too late for the Shadow Isles now. Any discussion that occurs will be primarily limited to "ask us questions, receive playful teasers about what we've already decided!" or "tell us how much you like our new Shadow Isles." So let's talk about the next project, or the one after that.

Follow Riot's Long History Of Community Engagement

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140716213938/leagueoflegends/images/a/a3/Morello.jpg Look into his kind, kind eyes and ask for help. Maybe offer to write a story about Irelia accidentally hacking her own arm off.

If you're genuinely confused, Narrative team, you don't have to look far for good role models. IronStylus is getting to basic concept work on a Taric VU. One of the first things he does: go on the forum and pitch ideas back and forth. Or read through all of the posts from Morello and others concerning Support starvation and the gold income problem that evolved into a major rework of the entire Support role. Or pick a Champion with a rework, and observe highly paid professionals taking the time to argue back and forth on the forum and give serious thought to what the community has to say, and then to incorporate that discussion in a very serious way.

Of course, at the end of the day, the buck stops with you. I understand that. But I also understand that Riot has become the success it has in no small part because of its willingness to leverage the community's passion and insight, even when it requires them to rethink their prior notions of How It Should Be. Look at Morello and healers, for example: there's someone with exceptional talent and strong, well-founded opinions … who nonetheless has been humble enough to look at it from another perspective, and allow his stance to evolve through community engagement.

If your problem is "forgetfulness", then let this thread and others like it be a constant reminder.

If your problem is a lack of role models, walk down the hall and ask anyone not in the Narrative department.

If your problem is that you can't see any other option, start a thread and ask for some.

60 Comments

Lord of Awesome28 votes

I'm still pretty bummed over all of the Shurima lore changes. Not just in that they invalidated the identities of the characters they'd already made - for example, why does Renekton hate Nasus now? There's no mention of it in the lore - but in that they just straight gutted the amount of content there was. 2 - 3 lines of lore for a character doesn't feel good at all. Stories like Jax's are so much fun to read, and when it's sort of a one-and-done, where you only have to write the lore once, I just don't see much of an excuse for it to be so short. And it's awfully sad.

Fried Noob8 votes

Except they have said multiple times the the 2-3 sentence lores are just short summaries that are meant solely for the in-client lore section. The full lore will be on the website but last minute changes to Azir and Xerath's lore (most likely by community request) and some technical issues have delayed the full lore from being released.

Diahane21 votes

Except they have said multiple times the the 2-3 sentence lores are just short summaries that are meant solely for the in-client lore section. The full lore will be on the website but last minute changes to Azir and Xerath's lore (most likely by community request) and some technical issues have delayed the full lore from being released.

It doesn't sound that much convincing that a renown company such as Riot doesn't have the tech to run the oh so hyperbolic number of two databases in the time that has passed since the Shurima event. I do want to trust them, but while I can understand that they need more time to revamp Azir's and Xerath's lore I can't really fathom how they could take so much to realize this new tech. Maybe I'm just naive when it comes to web tech, but creating a new database to draw the lores from for the site and keeping the old for the client (or viceversa) seems not that hell of a development project. It doesn't even need to be the definitive thing, they could even put the lores on the site manually until they get the code and the database done. There'd be just webpages and a whole lot of copy & paste, but they'd be able to keep the long lores that are ready somewhere for people to access. They don't want to spoil the page with manual input? They could do brand new temporary ones realized manually and change the links to redirect there for the time being. Then they could switch the links back to the updated page digging in the new database.

It baffles me if Riot doesn't have either the tech or the manpower to do this. The only possible hindrance is that they should do that for every language in every region they support and that could be considered an hassle. Still, it's been a long time since the Shurima event, they would've had the time for this too.

I don't intend to be demeaning towards Riot in any way with this post, it's just that I am actually perplexed as to how said tech issue could really be this huge of a problem.

Ulric Greatsword25 votes

Me every time I see the retconned bios: "Look at what crawled out of the plot holes!"Gangplank

Ark Angel HFB27 votes

Jax "Imagine if I had a real lore team."

CupcakeTrap28 votes

Jax "Imagine if I had a real lore team."

Nerfing himself to use a lamppost doesn't make much sense if he's not fighting on the Fields. I guess it's a Musashi reference? Whatever. I guess he's just going around challenging people to fight him for kicks? Gosh, sure would be cool if he could somehow find a giant battle arena where he could go up against all the most powerful warriors in Valoran. And they could have a series of lore pieces exploring his study of these other fighting styles, as he also assesses the personalities and motivations of his adversaries.

Nope, I guess now it's just Jax walking up to Darius and saying "hey wanna fite lol? but like not 4 serious i have this lamppost n stuff k?"

DG Ashabel22 votes

I guess he's just going around challenging people to fight him for kicks?

I've seen that brought up multiple times now, but have you noticed that the lore team complained about how it's boring to conclude all their lore entries with "And then the character joined the League of Legends," but now they won't stop concluding said entries with "And then the champion went off to wander Valoran with a vague goal of achieving something"?

CupcakeTrap22 votes

I guess he's just going around challenging people to fight him for kicks?

I've seen that brought up multiple times now, but have you noticed that the lore team complained about how it's boring to conclude all their lore entries with "And then the character joined the League of Legends," but now they won't stop concluding said entries with "And then the champion went off to wander Valoran with a vague goal of achieving something"?

Yep.


Maokai was bound to a gnarled tree by the dark magic that transformed the Shadow Isles. The once-peaceful nature spirit is now a corruption of his former self. Infused with power that he never asked for, he has become a destructive force, sundering his enemies with wild magic and crushing limbs. Maokai continues to wander Valoran, seeking the means to bring life back to his forest home.

Riot complained that it felt weird ending bios with "and so they came to the League of Legends to pursue this goal." Apparently, "wandering Valoran in search of ______" doesn't give them the same discomfort. There's a lot of it about.

No, no, don't have Maokai go to the League and try to find allies to help him retake part of the Isles, or to find arcane secrets that he might be able to use to restore his forest: just have him "wander Valoran".


There should be a script that just adds, "Now, s/he wanders Valoran." to the end of bios.

LordHippoman21 votes

I think the biggest issue in Lore is consistency. We don't have any guarantee that anything that's stated is really happening for good, or if it will be retconned in a year or so. This is why the retcons are such a big issue. I've been around since Season 1 (around Renekton release) and I can't imagine comparing the stuff I read 4 years ago to what exists now and thinking "This is the same story." I was into the Journal Of Justice, I read all the Bios, I wrote a dumb parody fanfic about Swain and Sion. I was into Lore. It's changed a lot, and I wouldn't say for the better.

All that being said, though, some of the behavior from our end has been downright awful as well. I don't need to mention the threats towards Opeli and Entropy (I think it was Entropy? The guy who was on GD a lot), especially ones that had to do with their personal lives (hobbies, previous work, gender, etc.) being awful and unnecessary, and I certainly don't want to say that's all of our faults. The people who made those threats were people I had never seen in my aforementioned 4 years of Lore nerding. But we still have to own up to basically turning Lore Discussion into a warzone over the past few weeks. A lot of really good posters seem to have been driven away because of backlash due to them supporting the retcon or Riot, even in small capacities. GentlemanGaston, FoolishLantern, etc. And some people have the idea now that it's best to yell at Riot constantly, tell them they aren't real writers, campaign for them to be fired, etc., and I have to say, if I was working at Riot, I sure as hell wouldn't want to talk to these boards.

Riot screwed up. But we also screwed up. I'm not going to start the argument over who screwed up more (It's the people who made death threats over the plot to a video game, but that in no way represents most of us.), but I am going to propose a few ideas for us. OP has a good list of things Riot should be doing, and I'm going to shamelessly crib that concept to do something similar for us.

We Should: -Continue to discuss Lore. Show Riot we're still interested. The retcons are a pretty big downsize, but just letting them know we're into it can help show that it's worth putting work into. Reborn was awesome.

-Keep making community works, with or without retcon inclusion. Some people have written great stories for League. I'm going to be a big dork here and reference "Exaltation To Exile", which is a story my real life friend Bub-Omb started after I told him about League and we got into Lore. It's long now, and he had never written before. Same thing with "Light of Redemption", something another friend of mine, TheLastMessage, started writing when he got into League lore. (You can read them both on FanFiction.net if you want to pay attention to my shameless plugging for friends) And those are just people I know. People are making cool stuff for League every single day. The Summoner's Showcase used to help display that, and I think that's the biggest tragedy. We lost something that showed off how creative our community could be and gained "BIG PLAYS", where we just watch people paid to play video games mash on Riftwalk with Kass for 12 seconds.

-Not harass Riot. Yes, the new lore feels like a downgrade to most of us. Yes, it's hard to trust their word after JoJ canning, Freljord, Trundle, Shurima lores, etc. But yelling does us little good. This is a really well thought out thread, for example, and I'd hate to see people use it as just a quick "gotcha" to Riot to try and "own" them or whatever. Use it as a resource. And it's fine to use constructive criticism (EG: Xerath's lore felt a lot more personal and real when he had motivation to do what he did, and the removal of that really hurts his character), but not pointlessly aggressive "mad posts" (EG: Xerath=Jafar now, god you idiots couldn't fill a cup with creativity, you hacks!)

Communication is a two way street, but I think both sides can cross it if we use more respectful tactics. Also I wonder if there's a character limi

CupcakeTrap18 votes

All that being said, though, some of the behavior from our end has been downright awful as well. I don't need to mention the threats towards Opeli and Entropy (I think it was Entropy? The guy who was on GD a lot), especially ones that had to do with their personal lives (hobbies, previous work, gender, etc.) being awful and unnecessary, and I certainly don't want to say that's all of our faults.

I shared your reaction to the anti-Opeli threads. It was such an awful thing for people to do, and such a misdirection of energy. I don't want anyone fired. That's insane. I go on and on about the retcon, but if you gave me a choice between having the retcon stick or having the Narrative team fired (let alone some of the horrible stuff being said in those threads), I'd take the retcon every time. Have a sense of perspective, people.

The reason I don't often bring it up is that I agree with you that it is not fair to pin that on all of us.

As for the new lore, the short version of my take is that it's not really even about quality per se, not at this stage. I thought Shurima was weak and Sion was pretty strong, in terms of quality. But I'm kind of fine with both of them, because neither clash in any significant way with the League lore.

I don't like trash-talking, so please understand that I write this knowing that (especially when doing cartoony LoL-style lore) sometimes you just throw a bunch of stuff at the wall and see what sticks. But just as an example, look at Mordekaiser's current lore. It is absolutely ridiculous. It reads like an over-the-top swing-and-a-miss. HE CONTROLS HIS OWN PAIN … AND THE PAIN OF OTHERS! (This makes me think of House with a bottle of Vicodin.) But there's a difference between the character concept and the quality of a particular piece of writing. And before we even talk about "quality" in some abstract sense, we need to make sure that the new lore isn't doing a great deal of damage to existing lore.

It's like …

"Hi friend! I set up a new gazebo for you."

"What happened to my house!?"

"Ah. Yes. It was in the way of the view from the gazebo. Fortunately, it was really pretty easy to remove. I just splashed some gasoline around and tossed in a match. View's much nicer now. More open."

"AAAAAAAAAAAARGGGGGHHHHHHHH!"

" … oh. I'm sorry. I should have realized. You don't like the color of the gazebo."

"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"

LordHippoman14 votes

"AAAAAAAAAAAARGGGGGHHHHHHHH!"

" … oh. I'm sorry. I should have realized. You don't like the color of the gazebo."

"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"

Someone photoshop Xerath pulling the football away from Azir Charlie Brown now, please.

Diahane5 votes

I stand with you and this position. Nonetheless it's pretty difficult to discuss lore as of now, because there really isn't any solid basis for it. The new things are all summaries, apart from Sion, while Sion himself has little to discuss, because what could be inferred from the sources we got has already been said. We could at most argue endlessly whether LeBlanc is Jarvan IV or just impersonated him once (that's my stance), but that got old =P Basically, we can actually only await, perhaps for a long, long time to get some material to work on; meanwhile the only active thing we can do is being creative, but that doesn't really help keeping this lore board alive (the fanfic, fanart thingys go elsewhere). To sum it up, the current situation is the definition of stagnation.

BlazingSalvo17 votes

I'm still absolutely dumbfounded that a company like Wizards of the Coast used to commission an entire 300+ page NOVEL for every single set 3 times a year, releases webcomics, commissions over A THOUSAND pieces of art for their 4 sets + promos + theme decks every year and that's just Magic. D&D has a ton of novels and even more art itself.

Meanwhile they make less money than Riot.

Riot on the other hand can barely commission all new splash arts for each champion (twitch rework only got a new main splash? we still have to look at the 2009 Shaco and Zilean?) and their lore is basically nonexistent.

There should honestly be 100+ pages of lore for each League champion. I mean, Urza's Saga is like 1200 pages of text, Time Spiral was like 950 pages of text.

Ravnica's lore was so rich they could have had a 300 page novel for each of the 10 guilds and still would have had characters and places to work with.

Yet Riot can't even break a paragraph.

LordHippoman6 votes

Most people were unwilling to read the JoJ because it was "too long". That was like 2 pages, max, with pictures. A 100 page lore book, while fantastic to most of us, would send your average League fan running in the opposite direction.

Blaine Tog11 votes

Well put, CupcakeTrap.

Most people were unwilling to read the JoJ because it was "too long". That was like 2 pages, max, with pictures. A 100 page lore book, while fantastic to most of us, would send your average League fan running in the opposite direction.

Yeah. but they don't need to make the average League fan read those lore books to make a profit. Lore is always going to be a niche part of the game, but that doesn't mean it can't be rich, flourishing, rewarding for some players, and profitable for Riot.

DG Ashabel16 votes

Yes, and people explained to them back then why making the lore shorter won't actually make it more popular. As a rule, people with interest in lore of video games they play will read it regardless of how long it is, while people with no interest in lore won't magically develop interest in it when the lore becomes shorter. Interest in something isn't some kind of adjustable scale, it exists or it doesn't.

Here is another example - World of Warcraft. The vast majority of people who play WoW don't even touch the story campaign, they hastily level themselves to level 20 and then tackle dungeons all the way to maximum level. They aren't interested in the story at all, they just want to raid. A fine proof for that is that you can pay Blizzard 60 bucks for them to boost your character to level 90, a service that's apparently been making them plenty of money. In the meantime, the story areas are mostly empty (I never see more than 2-3 other people per area while leveling a character once I leave the starting zone).

If Blizzard acted by the Riot narrative team's logic, they would have removed all of the story campaign from WoW and reduced it to a couple trailers and a handful additional raids with their own dialogue. Instead they keep on producing massive locations with their own story arcs and also writing 700+ page books. Why is that?

Well, it would be because those two sections of the game are developed for different niches of their community and both bring them a lot of money, albeit through different sources. No amount of shoving story into raids will suddenly make people who like exploring the game to raid, and nothing will keep the hardcore raider from skipping the story (already happens all the time, you need to be in a RP guild to convince people to let you hear out all the dialogue in a raids). They're separate groups within the same community, and need to be pleased in different ways.

Right now, it looks like Riot is trying to please all niches of their community with the same content and that ends up imploding on them. Repeatedly.

Dreamspitter2 votes

Sad but true.

Dreamspitter2 votes

I'm still absolutely dumbfounded that a company like Wizards of the Coast used to commission an entire 300+ page NOVEL for every single set 3 times a year, releases webcomics, commissions over A THOUSAND pieces of art for their 4 sets + promos + theme decks every year and that's just Magic. D&D has a ton of novels and even more art itself.

Meanwhile they make less money than Riot.

Riot on the other hand can barely commission all new splash arts for each champion (twitch rework only got a new main splash? we still have to look at the 2009 Shaco and Zilean?) and their lore is basically nonexistent.

There should honestly be 100+ pages of lore for each League champion. I mean, Urza's Saga is like 1200 pages of text, Time Spiral was like 950 pages of text.

Ravnica's lore was so rich they could have had a 300 page novel for each of the 10 guilds and still would have had characters and places to work with.

Yet Riot can't even break a paragraph.

Thing is....are most league fans the types that would read it?

Still I wont deny that Riot SHOULD have the resources to fully redo splashes. If they do write books -those books are going to written directly to lore forumites and the like. I doubt the average player cares for lore more than a reason to make a character seem cool "enough". That aside, if there's enough money in it for Magic to do it, Riot is probably missing out free money. They would probably be in E-book format like the Block Novellas in the last few years.

Durmeth the Vile14 votes

I've concluded that Riot has gone mad with power, and I'm just waiting now to see if they ever come to their senses. I find their excuse that they just need to communicate better pretty weak. What good is it for them to communicate their ideas better if they have already settled on them and just want to tell us about them earlier?

If they want to dialogue about things as you mentioned they sometimes do with updates, and take into account the community notions that would be great. But I'm not seeing it so far and the "just trust us, we're getting better" is pretty hollow now. Narrative has taken a great story that immersed the player, and turned it into generic fantasy arena. Then they claim they wan't me to be able to recognize my favorite champ in whatever media they put them in. Well, Nasus and Renekton aren't the same guys I originally found compelling. Skarner went from being sympathetic and interesting to generic sand critter. And now Hecarim is just some spooky horse that stabs people.

If Riot would like to come show me they have actually cool stories to tell, that would be great. But if I'll be waiting half a year to get one or two tales on the level of this Shurima stereotypical junk, I'll pass thanks.

I guess ultimately, I don't understand Riot's new policy that seems to be, make changes drastically and then ignore protests from the players. Small sections of the player base maybe, but why alienate people from your game? And why expect them to get stoked about upcoming things after you ignore them?

Sure, I'll still play their game. But I'm now far less excited about future champions because at least for the foreseeable future, they don't have much personality to them. I'm not a summoner working in tandem with them so they're just people and creatures beating on each other. I have no further plans to buy any RP to get a skin or champ or anything along those lines in this trend. Just waiting to see how it goes.

HowPlayGAEM13 votes

Good thread, but the problem is this:

The lore team has ignored everything for ~2 years, and now say they made a mistake in communication. In that two years, lore has stagnated heavily, and recently we learned everything is retconned/deleted. As you yourself said, something like that isn't a "mistake" or "woopsie, we forgot teehee ;)" its deliberate. If they've been behaving like that for so long, I do not think a thread like this will change their mind.

Now champ lore is being replaced by 3 sentences each because of tech issues. Really? This was just discovered? What have they been doing these two years? The Shurima event was planned far in advance, and these tech issues weren't addressed earlier?

Really, I just stopped caring; I have better things to read than Riot's excuses. League's lore is not at such a level where I can believe Riot's "trust us" phrase, and its definitely not at the level where I'm fine with being publicly mocked by Riot Opeli (hur dur I make joke out of lore y dey mad? GD sucks, halp me twitter friendz!!)

LordHippoman8 votes

She made an established reference to a very well known line from a well known movie to try and lighten the mood of a sensitive topic. It didn't work. She apologized that the joke didn't go over well, but frankly it's way better than a corporate robot response.

Then she got death threats. Don't pretend GD was in the right here.

HowPlayGAEM5 votes

Don't pretend GD was in the right here.

Disagreeing with Riot does not mean I support GD's death/rape threats.

You're basically calling me a rapist for not accepting Opeli's trivialization of lore concerns. Ridiculous.

LordHippoman7 votes

When did I say that? I just think it's within her rights to use her private Twitter to talk about the shit she was getting. I think there's a misunderstanding here. I wouldn't just randomly call you a rapist. Hell, they aren't rapists, they're just assholes with too much time on their hands. Trust me, I'm not going to lightly use that term. I know a few real life victims of that, and that's not something to joke about or toss around on League boards over a Lore disagreement.

I just think people took a joke way too seriously. It was probably a bad idea to make, but it certainly wasn't the worst thing to happen in Lore history. If she had approached it too seriously, she would have been bashed for being a "corporate drone". There's really nothing she could have said in that situation that would have defused that ticking time bomb thread.

LeeDark5 votes

It wasn't just a joke, because the punchline was literally: "Your opinions don't really matter."

SmokingPuffin8 votes

Really good OP.

Riot needs to decide if they want meaningful community engagement in lore. If they do, we need the lore equivalent of parrot's ongoing Taric thread before the work is too locked down to change.

Dotintheparadox8 votes

Although this entire retcon thing just feels wrong, like there is some kind of ulterior motive right now... I don't know, I'm probably just being paranoid, but this feels like some kind of power-play driven by Abernathy-philosophy indoctrination.

...and no matter what, I will remember Yorick

Dreamspitter3 votes

Abernathy left anyway.

Can always adapt a new philosophy, I mean look what Shurima got them.

Dotintheparadox6 votes

Yes, he left, but they're still following his design philosophy apparently. Which is, ignore everything that was already established, make mediocre characters under the pretense of "Nuanced personality", and inject a poorly designed plot, and then wait for a comedian to give it the best writing actually present in the game.

Dreamspitter2 votes

Yes, he left, but they're still following his design philosophy apparently. Which is, ignore everything that was already established, make mediocre characters under the pretense of "Nuanced personality", and inject a poorly designed plot, and then wait for a comedian to give it the best writing actually present in the game.

Werent they already doing this?

Dotintheparadox7 votes

The plot wasn't poorly designed before the current retcon, it was just weird, but it was original, but now, it's "WANDERING POORLY-PLOTTED WARRIORS OF RUNETERRA"

I also figured out how to fix nearly all of the Shurima's glaring plot-holes after 1 night, but since they seem to actually ignore suggestions because, "It's already done, can't change OUR canon now, right?" there's no point in telling them.

So I'm just going to write.

Impetual5 votes

Well written post, filled with good points. Hopefully we can get a Red response here.

CupcakeTrap5 votes

I cannot believe my cupcake eyes: it looks like the Narrative team is starting to consider public dialogue about Mordekaiser.

Skyhawke4 votes

Hey CupcakeTrap, do you have any links or could you give me a tl;dr of the Rioter controversies you mentioned?

Google is not helping me atm.

Great post, by the way.

CupcakeTrap2 votes

Thanks! Which "Rioter controversies" are you referring to?

Skyhawke3 votes

I guess the Opelius and Entropy ones that were mentioned a few times in this thread. Sorry, should have been more clear.

CupcakeTrap4 votes

I guess the Opelius and Entropy ones that were mentioned a few times in this thread. Sorry, should have been more clear.

This might sound odd, but I'd rather not link to them. But trust me, it was way, way out of line. The moderate thread was one calling for someone to be fired. And from there it evolved into rape/death wishes. It was bizarre and awful. I think someone went through those threads with a banhammer later on. I'm pretty sure they were at least closed.

Skyhawke4 votes

Oh no, the tl;dr is just fine. I was just curious what happened.

Sad that it happened :/ but thanks!

Keep up all your great work in the community! You're the one who came up with that concept for the "Synergy mastery" for supports getting gold, right? And I think you also headed up the factions lore stuff. Thanks for being awesome.

CupcakeTrap2 votes

Keep up all your great work in the community! You're the one who came up with that concept for the "Synergy mastery" for supports getting gold, right? And I think you also headed up the factions lore stuff. Thanks for being awesome.

Thanks! Yes, I'm still doing Factions, and I started the Synergy thread a while back. I appreciate the encouragement.

Frosty Hoodoo5 votes

5 months later and nothing seems to have changed. That just isn't right.

Merxamers4 votes

I love the recent threads that RiotCarnival (?) made regarding lore stuff; i just feel like i've been burned so many times before. Every new lore event makes things worse, and every time its "Oh sorry, we'll do better."

I believe they're trying; i just want to see something that doesn't punish me for my patience.

CupcakeTrap2 votes

I love the recent threads that RiotCarnival (?) made regarding lore stuff; i just feel like i've been burned so many times before. Every new lore event makes things worse, and every time its "Oh sorry, we'll do better."

I believe they're trying; i just want to see something that doesn't punish me for my patience.

CarnivalKnights' thread is an important first step, but it's only a first step. It shows a Rioter gathering community input on Champions who are likely to get some lore reworks in the future.

The next step would be them giving us some idea of what they're actually doing next, and then inviting discussion before it's locked in.

Dotintheparadox4 votes

Cupcake, I'm currently working on a story based off the retconned lore, and I wanted to include some of the RP lore community. I know this doesn't exactly pertain to this thread, but I was wondering if you could tell me if you have a "Summoner's" title, and your favored champion.

I'm also trying to get more names for summoners, and possible politicians as well.

CupcakeTrap5 votes

You mean Summoner Cupcake Trap, a yordle from Ionia whose name is a translation that would more literally be rendered as "small-cake-hazard-device"? And often joins forces with Veigar on the Fields?

You might try coming by Factions; there are quite a few established Summoner characters.

Dotintheparadox2 votes

Cool, but I should still give some insight here.

It will most likely conflict with several already established RP storylines, so I'll just apologize in advance, I'm not an RP'r myself, but I have enjoyed the things (Although I have read only a few.) from these communities far more than the current lore team. I want this story to feel right though, so I would appreciate as many Summoner's names as possible, and their favored champions.

I'm planning on setting this just after the dissolving of the IoW, with an void invasion happening afterwards as well, I'm also making it BIG. I'm also making the narrator, technically Shaco, since as a demon jester, who's seemingly uncontrollable by any force other than his desire to cause chaos, he seems like he could actually operate as a observer of events. He, to me at least, exists just outside of the world's rules.

I'm just having a little bit of trouble determining politicians for the meeting deciding the fate of the League and it's assets. The trouble being I need more people outside of the League from each nation, so it acts as a more objectively focused group, so people like Karma, Ashe, Tryndamere, J4, Swain, Darius, etc. can't be a part of the group.

Sorry about this rant, it's 2 AM where I am, and I just wanted to get this info out at least. I also apologize for my most likely terrible grammar and run-ons.

TerraRising4 votes

Here's an update. RiotOpeli doesn't seem to be part of the Narrative team anymore. Her new title is "Project coordinator," or something.

CupcakeTrap7 votes

Here's an update. RiotOpeli doesn't seem to be part of the Narrative team anymore. Her new title is "Project coordinator," or something.

That … makes me really sad. I seriously hope it wasn't backlash.

Zyorhist2 votes

This post begs for a "Don't forget your roots" section comprising of how riot or Moba's even became an existing thing. Fans had an idea and made it into something. continue that concept further forward today and they should be remembering that we are who they used to be.

Velivolo1 votes

As someone who's been playing for... Less than a year, I really don't understand even half of this discussion.

It's Riot's company. They own it. They're under no obligation to talk to us about their decisions concerning the game. It's definitely nice when they do, and we all love it, but it's kind of annoying to see everyone pitching a fit over it.

Please keep in mind that "Everyone on the forums wanted this!" isn't a valid argument. They've stated before that the forums are a vocal minority, and I'm 100% sure they're right.

Also I'm with Riot on the idea that retconning the whole "summoners" thing was an excellent idea. Did I need a reason for random characters to fight each other in Super Smash Brothers? No. Do most people? I'd bet not. The "Everyone wanders Valoran" thing is kinda weak and definitely needs work, but at least it's way more open ended than "And then he/she/it joined the League!" It seems like they're leaning more toward the lore and the game existing as separate entities, and I think in the long haul it'll make both more enjoyable.

Diahane6 votes

As someone who's been playing for... Less than a year, I really don't understand even half of this discussion.

It's Riot's company. They own it. They're under no obligation to talk to us about their decisions concerning the game. It's definitely nice when they do, and we all love it, but it's kind of annoying to see everyone pitching a fit over it.

Please keep in mind that "Everyone on the forums wanted this!" isn't a valid argument. They've stated before that the forums are a vocal minority, and I'm 100% sure they're right.

Also I'm with Riot on the idea that retconning the whole "summoners" thing was an excellent idea. Did I need a reason for random characters to fight each other in Super Smash Brothers? No. Do most people? I'd bet not. The "Everyone wanders Valoran" thing is kinda weak and definitely needs work, but at least it's way more open ended than "And then he/she/it joined the League!" It seems like they're leaning more toward the lore and the game existing as separate entities, and I think in the long haul it'll make both more enjoyable.

The point is that they make statistical claims such as "the forums are a vocal minority" then tell you they don't run driven by surveys. If you do no surveys, you can't know the forums are a minority, so you should listen to them. If you know the forums are a minority, you must have some statistics to back it up and you should say so and you shouldn't lie to users saying that you don't decide based on surveys. All this just speaks about lack of trust, which is the whole point: a lot of people don't trust the narrative team, because they behaved in such a way that no one who has been around from season one and has followed the lore could actually do so.

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