Retcons suck: I'm not that far from wishing I'd never gotten involved in League's lore.

CupcakeTrap··249 votes·32,141 views

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100821100304/leagueoflegends/images/c/cd/MapofValoran.jpg

I've spent a genuinely stupid amount of time and energy on the League lore universe over the past couple years. Until a few months ago, I was extremely pleased by this decision. It got me out of writer's block, because the lightness and, well, derpiness of the League universe melted away my anxiety about writing: "come on, it's a story about freaking LEAGUE lore, just write, it's fine". It connected me with a community of other lore fans. And hey, people actually read what I wrote, and said they enjoyed it, so I like to think that I wasn't the only one who benefited from this decision. It meant a lot of jokes from my friends about working two full-time jobs, but I felt it was worthwhile.

http://i.imgur.com/v310XA7.jpg Pictured: A Zaunite techno-Summoner, 333lom, preventing conflict and constraining characters. Look at her! Art by 333lom, a community member.

I am far from the only one.

Was it a mistake? It might have been.

http://i.imgur.com/8WXE9Sb.jpg I sometimes prefer to think that Riot is genuinely ignorant of how much its community has invested in its lore.

I think I'm still glad that I chose to get invested, but suddenly, I have real reservations. I've spent a ton of time exploring and developing a world that has now several times been retconned and reworked beyond recognition. Riot was always kind of mercurial about lore, redoing Champ backgrounds and such, but nothing like this. There's sort of an implicit understanding between a universe's authors and the community, implicit within the invitation to get immersed, that the fantasy walls will hold, even if some furniture gets moved around. Here, Riot doesn't seem to hesitate before sledgehammering major pieces of its setting.

I don't know why they're doing this. My lead theory is that they want to make more Runeterra games, and consider themselves to be back in the "blank slate" stage.

Whatever their rationale, clearly they think it outweighs the decimation of the lore community and their (our) years of investment into the setting. I'm not quite saying I want to go back in time and take back my decision to start Factions or read the Journal of Justice. I'm just saying that the stress and anxiety that those decisions have brought me are serious enough that it's not any easy call.

The Great Retcon was just the first punch.

http://i.imgur.com/VwNfxO6.jpg Garen (constrained horribly by Summoners) strikes through the Great Barrier, clearing the path for a Demacian assault on Shurima, triggering an international crisis. This will stop making sense when they release the new map and there is no Great Barrier between Demacia and Shurima.

Retcons are about the worst thing you can do to a community. There's nothing that breaks immersion or invalidates prior community creations quite the way retcons do, especially sweeping retcons.

Let's take a brief inventory of Riot's larger retcons:

  • The League of Legends. Riot retconned the League of Legends from the lore of League of Legends. Let that sink in.
  • Summoners. Riot also retconned us out of the universe.
  • The layout of Valoran. Though they haven't released a replacement map, they have said that the current map is no longer canon. After retconning the League, and Summoners, this was about the most continuity-breaking retcon they could pull.

We no longer have a connection between the game and the storyverse. We no longer have a presence in the universe. And we no longer even know what the world looks like.

So place your bets: is this the last "last time"? Or are they going to keep their serial retcons coming? Have they written off the League universe? Are they just trying to bang together a marketable Runeterra setting?

The retcons aren't just killing the community. They're killing the heart of the lore.

http://i.imgur.com/xh7eul8.jpg More art by 333lom. It shows a yordle scientist at the moment of her great breakthrough at Piltover Academy, which may or may not exist tomorrow.

Maybe Riot's giving up on having a story for League, and is banking on a new media empire with this Leagueless Runeterra at its center. Even if that's their goal, I would question their decision: what a setting needs is a certain magic, a certain internal chemistry. I think, for all its faults, the old League universe had that. This new League universe? It's pretty hollow. It's overproduced and hollow. It does everything just right, hits all the authorial buzzwords and media reqs, but it has no heart. It's like a Hollywood movie: the product of a truly painful volume of highly paid talent, gone over a thousand times with fine-toothed combs looking for any hints of a "mistake", venturing nothing, risking nothing, surprising no one, inspiring no one.

If I'd started League a couple weeks ago, I'm pretty sure I'd never have started writing League stories or becoming invested in the universe. I'm fairly certain I'd never have started Factions. There's nothing here that inspires. Nothing novel or interesting. Just a bunch of well-produced intro-marketing pieces for new Champions and skins.

The original League universe was stupid as hell sometimes, but it caught the eye. I mean, a fantasy UN created to prevent the world's destruction through magical WMDs, an interconnected fantasy universe with newspapers and ray guns and knights all crashing together into one surreal metropolis: these are eye-catching ideas. The new Runeterra? "Here's Ekko. He is from a place called Zaun. It's basically Shadowrun with some extra mutants. Now watch him exercise his agency to confront a difficult challenge and emerge from the experience having grown as a person." It is absolutely the way to write a character story. It is correct. It is professional. It is dull as hell. The original characters in League didn't have such well-produced backstories; their backstories were crazy grab-bags of random events and flashes of personality. But the idea of all these characters, most of whom were ripped off from one place or another, joining the League together and meeting one another? Whoa. That's kind of a neat idea. What if a frontier sheriff and an Arthurian knight ended up crossing paths? I can work with this. No individual faction in Runeterra is particularly interesting, either; they're all rehashes of standard fantasy tropes. But putting them all together on one planet? That's pretty freaking interesting. That gets my attention. I can write stories about that. That's fun.

The new Leagueless Runeterra? You can't say it's bad as such. You kind of have to agree it's good. But it's not inspiring. It's got no soul. It's too freaking careful for a soul. There are no derpy gaps or plot holes within which a quirky kind of magic can develop. It's all hammered-down, tightly-sealed "product". Even if all Riot wants to do is start stamping out more games, books, movies, and merch, this new Runeterra doesn't have the heart to sustain it.

I'm reminded of what I think may serve as a cautionary tale: Wars TCG. It was a customizable card game, like Magic. It was created by the same people who did the awesome original Star Wars CCG. They lost their Star Wars license, so they made their own setting. It was filled with art, music, lore. Much of it was quite high-quality. They really broke the bank. And it failed, not least because, although everything was done right, you cannot reliably create magic. Sometimes a setting springs to life. Sometimes it doesn't. It's perhaps also not unlike the Star Wars prequels compared to the original trilogy. It's hard to predict whether a creative work will really take off and thrive, but inasmuch as these things have rules, one rule seems to be that derpy, slapped-together, somewhat frantically constructed settings have a higher likelihood of coming to life than overproduced Hollywood ones. George Lucas running around with a handful of underpaid crew members going "OH MAN WE HAVE LIKE FOUR WEEKS LEFT SOMEONE GET ME SOME BATTLESHIP MODEL KITS AND A SHINY METAL ROBOT SUIT OH FORGET IT LET'S JUST REMAKE A KUROSAWA MOVIE WITH LASERS" in the desert produced something magical and memorable. George Lucas sipping coffee in front of computer screens, surrounded by hundreds of millions of dollars of technology, talent, and shiny-eyed staff eager to pour all their hard work into making one tiny piece of this project absolutely perfect produced something eminently forgettable.

http://40.media.tumblr.com/126717f6169a5f5c0b078e69fa62a099/tumblr_mngeu7Ng0Z1rwthleo1_1280.png Another heartfelt piece of community art broken by Riot's casual blank-slate retcon. From Becoming a Summoner.

The original League lore was smacked together on a tight timeline with a primary objective of "give this game a story". That's an awkward, difficult task. And it brought out some crazy leaps of creativity. Slapping down totally standard, and (with all due respect) not terribly well-executed fantasy tropes onto this rocky, bumpy, awkward foundation produced some remarkable innovations, by necessity. It also produced some cracks and gaps which needed filling. An engaged, enchanted community is very willing to pour its love out to fill in those little imperfections. (Again, Star Wars: it's full of half-built allusions and apparent contradictions, which have been embraced by the community and transformed from mistakes into gems. "A Kessel Run in 12 parsecs? Let's figure out why that could possibly make sense. Hey, what if there's a big black hole?") But now Riot's ripping up that rocky foundation, sanding it smooth, and pouring sparkly shiny product on top. Naively, one might think that removing the awkwardness will make it better; take out the strange and leave the good. But it doesn't work like that. It's a living, interconnected thing.

Riot's like Johnny 5 trying to "RE-ASSEMBLE" the butterfly or grasshopper or whatever it was. You can't smash a living thing to pieces and then put it back together, expecting it to return to life. Complex organic systems don't work like that. Re-rolling your setting is a really risky move. The old Runeterra had some kind of spark of life. Riot's pulling a Wars TCG now. There's some chance that new Runeterra will develop its own spark, but the odds don't look that good.

The diehards are dying. This should concern Riot.

http://static.tumblr.com/aidcuae/7JXm48ntx/lileyx_chan_comission_by_gladosy-d472gtt2_copy.gif More community art broken by Riot. This example from the Becoming a Summoner site.

Anyone who has stuck with Riot's loreverse for this long is pretty crazily dedicated. When we start saying "screw this, I wish I'd never cared about your stupid universe", that should be a cause for concern. I'm pretty sure the top-level people think about chroma packs and such about a thousand times more often than they think about lore. Riot as a company seems to still have an "oh yeah, there's lore or something, right?" attitude. But I think we're finally at the point where even the diehards are, well, dying. If there's a time for Riot to have some serious qualms about what it's doing with its storyverse, I think it's now.

If Riot wanted to be decent about this, they would have, perhaps years ago, published a simple letter stating that they were closing the League universe and making a new one. Stringing us along like this was a dick move. To be honest, the main thing that keeps me going is sheer bloody-mindedness, mixed with a not inconsiderable amount of anger. I'm not sure how much longer that will last.

That's where I am. I am saying that I'm going to sneak off in my little bits of free time to write fanfic based on the old Runeterra with some other diehards who don't want to die just yet. Underneath it all is the truly insane belief that there's enough magic in the old Runeterra that this scrappy band can produce better, more compelling lore than whatever the giant clanking Riot machine can churn out. Understaffed by a thousandfold, underqualified beyond comparison, underfunded by an essentially infinite multiplier, but we think there's something special in old Runeterra and we think that can be enough. We're going to take the stone they rejected, the League, and make it our cornerstone. This is certifiably stupid. It isn't going to work. I can't see how it can end but badly for us, and yet I also can't see a way to make myself not want to do it. Let's at least go out tilting at windmills.

282 Comments

CupcakeTrap38 votes

I was feeling pretty bitter, fatalistic even, after writing this post. But Summoner Aliceandsven just cheered me up. I'm laughing hysterically as I type this. He actually says it. He actually says it!

Ekko WELCOME TO ZAUN!

Make it stop. Please. Heeheeheehee. I can't. I can't see straight.

DG Ashabel67 votes

Here is something funnier to consider.

What the fuck is a Zaun?

Obviously, to us, the name is associated with an industrial city in the northeast of Valoran. However, that particular geographical position is no longer canon. Furthermore, there is absolutely no information on the official League websites that say anything about Zaun, be it outdated pre-retcon information or otherwise. A new player, one who joined after the retcon and doesn't yet know that one can only obtain information about locations and such from an unofficial wiki, would have no idea what these words mean. Is Zaun a city? A village? A neighborhood? A giant wombat on the edge of the universe whose fur has become populated by people over the years? They would have no idea!

Basically, from the perspective of everyone who doesn't have access to insider Riot info, Ekko's lore is a bunch of gibberish filled with pointless moonwords. And yet, somehow, it passed editorial control.

I'll let you ponder that.

Finnical11 votes

Actually the giant wombat idea sounds awesome. Fuck yordles, the giant wombat people are the weirdest group you will ever meet!

BetaDude4012 votes

BRB.

Fanfic incoming.

EDIT: ABOUT THE WOMBAT PEOPLE, NOT YORDLES FUCKING!!! Just to clarify before anyone says anything...

Sneak Dog25 votes

Well, one who should be one of Riots greatest advocates in lore if you measured his passion, just made this thread...

I agree though, I don't care about this new lore and why should I? Riot doesn't even care:

Why should I invest in a lore where the writers have such a history? Even Jaredan doesn't even address these points, he avoids talking about it every time he enters a thread. All he wants to do is move on, whereas to 'move on' for me would mean abandoning the lore and the investment I made in the old one entirely.

Captain Aishi14 votes

lol, rereading that post about trundle makes me sad "huge opportunity for storytelling in the future" and two years later they haven't produced anythiing new trundle-wise...

TerraRising5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=E745nAEe,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2015-06-01T12:22:53.430+0000)

Well, one who should be one of Riots greatest advocates in lore if you measured his passion, just made this thread...

I agree though, I don't care about this new lore and why should I? Riot doesn't even care:

Why should I invest in a lore where the writers have such a history? Even Jaredan doesn't even address these points, he avoids talking about it every time he enters a thread. All he wants to do is move on, whereas to 'move on' for me would mean abandoning the lore and the investment I made in the old one entirely.

You should take everything Runaan says with a grain of salt. For a while, her job was damage control for any lore changes: Narrative would announce a change, the community would get up in arms, and she'd come in and try to be the "reasonable voice."

It was when her words didn't work after the Retcon announcement that she stopped posting in the forums and the boards altogether. Her one trick didn't work and she went into hiding like everyone else.

pWasHere3 votes

It was also around that time that the old GD got axed.

I have always thought the two were connected.

Loken Stoneheart8 votes

{quoted}

It was also around that time that the old GD got axed.

I have always thought the two were connected.

This too. They simultaneously made two pretty terrible changes.

The lore retcon, and axing GD for their own personal benefit (and then continuing to favor reddit over their own forums anyways).

pWasHere2 votes

IDK, I don't remember a single thread that didn't just devolve into pointless bitching. I don't blame them for seeing that whole Runaan situation as the final straw. Although I can't say boards is much batter for having a constructive discussion. Its just that all the bitching is interspersed with pointless memes.

Reddit is just much better for what they need.

Loken Stoneheart9 votes

{quoted}

IDK, I don't remember a single thread that didn't just devolve into pointless bitching. I don't blame them for seeing that whole Runaan situation as the final straw. Although I can't say boards is much batter for having a constructive discussion. Its just that all the bitching is interspersed with pointless memes.

Reddit is just much better for what they need.

At least there was a community. Community was axed in favor of reddit style upvotes and posts so that Riot can quickly sift through posts and proceed to ignore them anyways. The just turned the boards into Reddit 0.5 . Reddit is a better Reddit than Boards, and Riot acknowledges that by spending most of their time there. I mean, FFS they have announcements that they ONLY put on Reddit.

They had the boards back when they cancelled lifetime rewards. But, nobody would ever know that if they didn't also frequent Reddit. I'm sure most people still don't know that they did that. The only "official" thing they had was the promise of lifetime rewards, which, again, were cancelled as an exclusive announcement on Reddit :3c

Earl Eulrich2 votes

same for the recent "TTT change-debate" and some other stuff...it´s really annoying that even on actual important stuff they don´t use their own creation. It´s like seeing Bill Gates operate everything at home on Linux while he advertises for windows in the same spot.

pWasHere1 votes

There is simply too much hostility here. Regardless of whether it is their own creation or not, the reddit community is more welcoming.

They are going to go where they know they can get better feedback.

Earl Eulrich9 votes

if you want better feedback you usually go to more critic people and not to a bunch of blind followers. if you donßt care about the quality of your work and just want to be praised however...

pWasHere3 votes

there is a difference between being welcoming but helpfully critical and just being plain hostile.

Sneak Dog8 votes

It is the argument that determines the quality of the feedback, positive or negative, friendly or hostile.

Besides, there's quite a past to be hostile about.

pWasHere4 votes

All I am saying is that if an argument is hostile, it wouldn't be the most shocking thing that ever happened for that argument to be ignored. One can have the most well reasoned argument, but it will be the tone that determines whether that argument actually makes a difference.

Sneak Dog10 votes

Well, there's this thing with Riot being 'player-focused' and wanting to 'improve communication.' Then there's also getting ignored for so long one doesn't care to set a friendly tone anymore.

333lom23 votes

Nine months had passed since the Great Retcon, and things are looking more grim than ever. I've been silently watching your threads and upvoting CCT, and now I have to finally express my opinion on this.

That announcement of the Retcon literally gave me chills. We've been left in the dark for so long, just the known parts of the lore vanishing into the abyss, with only a few plastic sentences to replace them. I call the new lore plastic - because, as you said, it follows a strict scheme of how to make a cool character background, how to make a cool fantasy world, with big budget and technology to make it polished. And I unfortunately, don't like a single bit of the new lore. If there is any.

I believe they are actually making something. They're probably really rewriting the entire Runeterra, and they want to release the final project, complete, because that's how polished companies do. And I believe everything new will be like these things after the retcon - sparkly, overdone and hollow.

I truly believe the Narrative is capable of better, capable of expanding the characters, and not just rewriting them into cliche villains, evil monsters and whatnot. But I get the feeling they were given the job of rewriting the lore specifically to fit the audience of twelve-year-olds whose attention cannot hold longer than two sentences. What if Riot figured their playerbase is mainly composed of children who are content with the kind of lore they're making now? I would be very disappointed if this turns out to be the case. But also hopeful, maybe.. they could be convinced to return to the old lore. The kids aren't interested in the lore either way, why write only for them?

The Runeterra after the Retcon is, what? A generic fantasy land with every faction for themselves? Nobody is aware of anyone. Hey, at least we now feel their world is big, so the champions never encounter each other. What? Then why are they on the same planet at all? Why not make separate universes named Freljord, Shurima, etc. Why are they even still called Champions? The League of Legends without the League? Those names were obviously too tied to the franchise to cut them out too, but I think they would do that if they could.

The lore nerds have spoken. We want the IoW back, we want the Summoners back, and we want the old Runeterra back. Just give the old lore minor adjustments, make the IoW the fantasy UN which struggles to keep the entire planet from breaking apart, rather than overpowered control center. Just like in Factions. Summoners were already perceived as assistants to Champions - even though in the old lore they were more powerful. But that's nothing that can't be tweaked a bit to be what I previously mentioned, nothing that creates horrible boundaries that hold the lore from advancing. "Oh no, the Institute is preventing us from turning Runeterra into a generic fantasy world!"

I can't wait to get back to Factions, after these university tests are finally over. Factions literally feel more alive than anything of the new lore ever will - there, Champions interact, the City-states are connected, Summoners are running around doing things.

Tearsong5 votes

Whenever there is a change in anything the community/fans will always be split. I can give so many examples, but I'm sure everyone here knows. Some people will like the changes, others will hate it with a passion. Some will run around screaming "this is the best thing ever!" others will go sulking and crying in a corner thinking that it has ruined <insert any franchise here>. It's too early to jump to conclusions. When a change has occured and things aren't set in stone yet, never make conclusions, if you turn out to be correct sure you can be all smug, but if it's wrong, then shame. And all that emotional energy invested! All the time! Spend it on something else instead. But here's the thing, if you just sit back, give it some time, perhaps things will sort themselves out. Riot did say they're working on a new lore, give them time to do it. I must say I liked the old lore, however I also see why they are throwing it out, the limitations present within the previous lore was pretty obvious for the creation of new ideas. I know having all of your work nullified is like a sucker punch to the gut, but does everything have to be canon? Why can't it be non-canon? What's wrong with non-canon? Just leave your old work to be based upon the old lore, I'm sure people will still enjoy it, and for those newer members, it might even help them discover a bit of the game's history that they never knew of.

All in all, I'd say just wait it out, the new lore isn't out yet, lets not jump to conclusions and give it a chance. Who knows, it might even be better than the old lore.

**Edit: **After seeing the arguments and experiencing the boiling rage of the community, I've decided to stop commenting on this post altogether. I believe the new lore could be good, or it could be horrendous. But I was never too invested in the old lore to begin with. It seems as if everyone here hates the new lore with a passion. You won't convince me it sucks - because I haven't seen enough of it to justify saying that it sucks. And I won't convince you to give it a chance. So lets just agree to disagree.

DG Ashabel43 votes

People have been sitting back and giving it some time for nine months now.

For me, the last drop came earlier this week, when the Senior Narrative Editor misspelled "canon" as "cannon". That was the point where I realized that the narrative department gives such a negative amount of fucks about the lore that me giving a damn about it would be somewhere between awkward and criminal.

Tearsong2 votes

whops, thanks for pointing out my horrible spelling. I can never get the right one. Most people don't proof read comments on threads, I think it could be a simple typo - but I'm not going to claim it is.

And yes the wait time has been agonizing, but what good thought out story/lore is written up in less than a year? I mean I wait for around about 1-2 years for a new book to be released within a series. Sure riot has more employees working, but coordinating a team may be harder than being a single author. Who knows. Either way I'm content to wait for longer since riot's main focus is and should be the gameplay, everything else is just bonus content imo and I'll take what I can get. But that's just my opinion - feel free to disagree.

Awoof15 votes

{quoted}

And yes the wait time has been agonizing, but what good thought out story/lore is written up in less than a year? I mean I wait for around about 1-2 years for a new book to be released within a series.

They started to exclude Summoners and the League from lore years ago, just saying. The official confirmation may have been 9 months ago, but when I started this game in season 2 when Zyra was released, there was already nothing of the League and Summoners left in the new lore. So I, for one, don't count on them proving their competence with time.

CupcakeTrap15 votes

[{quoted}](name=DG Ashabel,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=E745nAEe,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2015-06-01T11:27:56.860+0000)

People have been sitting back and giving it some time for nine months now.

For me, the last drop came earlier this week, when the Senior Narrative Editor misspelled "canon" as "cannon". That was the point where I realized that the narrative department gives such a negative amount of fucks about the lore that me giving a damn about it would be somewhere between awkward and criminal.

Aw, be nice to Jaredan. His heart is in the right place. A fellow can only be around posters who misspell "canon" for so long before they're infected themselves.

RiotRiotJaredan18 votes

Honestly, making that error in public still hurts me in some profoundly OCD irrational ways. But yeah, I made a typo. It happens.

Thanks CT.

Impetual5 votes

I'm really sorry, Jaredan, I don't want to be disrespectful here, but I gotta ask: What gives? Why ignore the initial question?

Jaredan, you've obviously read this thread as you specifically responded to a specific comment.

Why haven't you, or anyone else on the Narrative/Foundations teams responded to the initial comment? Through Riot's new(ish) upvote/downvote system, it's pretty obvious that players want an answer to the OP's question much more than they wanted an answer to the silly question you answered.

I would think/hope that this would make it a higher priority....That's Riot tried to sell us on these new boards anyways.

The OP has more than 10x the upvotes.... Still no answer, after more than a week.

It's obvious that you read it, as well as a bunch of comments made about it.

Why respond to a silly post about you misspelling a word by one letter while leaving a pretty highly upvoted question to Riot unanswered?

RiotRiotJaredan18 votes

It's because this is a very personal thread where Cupcake is going through his own reasons for his involvement in the League community, what he does, and his response to changes. It just doesn't feel right at all for me to comment on most of his post.

Cupcake and I have chatted before, we see things differently, but I very much admire his passion for League and his creativity. I don't want to start questioning the elements that are very personal to his motivation for doing the work he has done.

I can talk specifically about a few points.

Cupcake is absolutely right in his frustration that we have not replaced certain things that we appear to have taken off the table. Summoners have not been taken out completely, but they are different to what they were (they're not tied to the IoW, they can't be the same). Saying that doesn't help, it's one of the things we haven't shown you yet, so the frustration is completely understandable.

The same for the map. We haven't fully fleshed out certain aspects of Valoran and we also haven't told enough stories to reduce the chance that a definitive map would be restrictive. We would be having place define story rather than the other way round. We were very close to releasing a world map that looked so detailed it would have locked us into a definition of the world before we had started properly exploring it.

Before the "well, a good writer would know how to work with restrictions," argument, this isn't just about the writing, it's about a number of teams, various designs and other things that will have a dramatic impact on the final overall look of Valoran and beyond. Those things aren't ready yet, and putting out a world map that we might have to change rather soon would be problematic.

We will be releasing the map over time through various artifacts, as seen in the Shurima and Harrowing examples, but we're creating a world built from story and character, we didn't want that defined in a way that could quickly feel arbitrary.

Aside from that, I'm not going to exhaustively go through Cupcake's post as I respect his view, his work, and his personal viewpoint. Do I agree with him that the new story we're building is hollow? Not at all. But we haven't shown enough of it to prove that yet. So I understand why it looks that way and the emotion involved in that view. Until we deliver, it's the truth of what you have in front of you.

Cupcake has a very particular view, shared by others on this board, and he's expressing it in a very personal honest way. Whether I agree with the details in his post, I completely support and agree with the way he's expressing them. I don't want to dig into those details as it can quickly appear to be a criticism of his personal view. Which I wouldn't do.

Essentially, that's why I didn't respond.

CupcakeTrap12 votes

Thank you, Jaredan, for taking the time to write such a considerate response. I appreciate your sensitivity to the fact that this thread is a somewhat emotional and personal one—to put it more bluntly, it was a late-night angst-rant—and may not be the ideal context for a substantive discussion of League lore. This was indeed mostly a personal thread talking about big-picture feelings and themes. It was intentionally a somewhat one-directional thread. I feel like I've been heard.

While it was a deeply personal post, I did raise two larger themes. You've commented on them somewhat above.

Hollowness

I agree that this is mostly a matter of showing, rather than telling:

Do I agree with him that the new story we're building is hollow? Not at all. But we haven't shown enough of it to prove that yet. So I understand why it looks that way and the emotion involved in that view. Until we deliver, it's the truth of what you have in front of you.

And for what it's worth, I do hope that you are able to flesh out the new Runeterra into a place with as much heart as the old Runeterra. I've shared some thoughts above on my personal view that some willingness to fumble, and some rockiness to work around, are both important for producing a flavorful universe. This might be a good topic for you to discuss with the community in future threads. If I may presume to say this, I feel it's also a conversation that should happen within Riot from time to time. There is a real danger of overproduction, especially when working on a game that originated as a hacked-together Warcraft III mod. That zaniness and slapdash feel are, I think, part of League's core identity at this point.

Retcons

I maintain that this is something that needs to be discussed more with the community. This thread may not be the right place for that, but those discussions should happen. I won't deny that there are some ways in which the schism that followed the Great Retcon has been helpful. If you guys didn't feel excited about writing lore that involved the League, then you made the right call to write about something else. There may be a silver lining to leaving that part of League's lore to the community. But in that sense, the Great Retcon was the least damaging of all the retcons, because it was a clean cut. Retcons to established characters and settings continue to be highly problematic.

On the specific topic of the map, I feel this is another balancing question. You've explained above that the primary reason for leaving it unclear is to maximize future flexibility. There's some value to that. But I hope this thread and others like it have helped to impress upon you that there is a cost to keeping everything undecided for so long. It's a problem for immersion, as well as community creativity, to not be able to print out a map of Runeterra and stick it on the wall. It's all a big question mark right now. And I would further question whether it would really be so constraining for you to at least describe a map in broad, broad terms, e.g., "Demacia's here. Ionia's over here."

Example: Veigar

Bringing these topics together, I would encourage Foundations and others at Riot to pause rather seriously before taking the axe to an established character or setting. Don't be too quick to judge a given "old school" character for being slapdash and amateurish. Take a look at Veigar. He's a fuzzball who went mad from lack of snuggles and became a dark mage. That's kind of a stupid character concept, from a certain point of view. You've got so many talented authors over there that I bet you all could work out a better concept for "tiny mage with big hat who casts meteor spells and cages people" in a matter of hours. I really don't doubt it. But this isn't a blank slate. When you overwrite a character like Veigar with a snazzy new concept, however brilliant that new concept might be, you're doing two things:

  • First, you're disrupting the cohesion of the universe through a retcon. All prior Veigar artwork and lore becomes incompatible with modern canon. Everything from sad stories of Veigar's imprisonment to LilyPichu's biographical video get tossed by the wayside, or consigned to an alternate reality. Individual players' senses of immersion are compromised. It churns up the foundations of the universe, and drives another crack through the suspension of disbelief that makes a fictional universe feel like a universe. The cold reality is that this is all "pretend", and in many ways universe-building is an effort to overcome that reality. Backpedaling and rewriting established lore erodes that carefully constructed appearance of a real world with objective existence.
  • Second, you're stamping out part of League's artistic tradition. I've spoken above about how I value the silliness and amateurishness of League's lore, and how integral I think it is to League's creative identity. Each old-style character you smooth over deprives League of part of its creative inheritance. This is the Johnny 5 problem. Perhaps you could also say that it's the Star Wars Special Edition problem: "the original had something special to it, but we surely won't compromise that by adding some more CG creatures here, or adding a scream there, and changing the lighting here…and you know, really, Han shouldn't have shot first…"

Given those two costs, even if you (e.g.) have a new Veigar idea that seems significantly better in the abstract, or in isolation, it may be better to stop and say, "hold on, though, guys—what if we kept the silly angry fuzzball lore, with all its strangeness? Can we improve and further develop that concept, rather than starting from scratch?" I think that, more often than you might imagine, it's possible to improve old concepts without completely replacing them.

Anyway, in closing, I wanted to echo your kind sentiments. I respect your devotion to the task ahead of you, and I hope neither you nor anyone else mistakes our disagreements for profound animosity. (I also hope that my indulgence in some jokes about THE ANCIENT WEAPON IS A KEY!!! and such are not taken as personal attacks. I do like a lot of the new lore, and as I've written above, I consider fumbles to often be a sign of the kind of adventurous writing that leads to real creative breakthroughs.) I imagine we'll talk more substantively in future threads.

Vistha Kai11 votes

The "new lore" is what we've been waiting for the past 3 years and we have yet to see any kind of progress different than retcons.

I can see reasons too, but beyond them we have and for a long time will have nothing.

Tearsong1 votes

3 years? I thought the old lore was scrapped about a year ago?

Vistha Kai16 votes

Journal of Justice and Champion Judgements were discontinued in May of 2012 as a part of "finding better ways to deliver the lore".

Sneak Dog25 votes

But here's the thing, if you just sit back, give it some time, perhaps things will sort themselves out.

All in all, I'd say just wait it out, the new lore isn't out yet, lets not jump to conclusions and give it a chance. Who knows, it might even be better than the old lore.

Probably will be 'better' than the old lore in raw writing quality...

The Freljord event is part of the new lore, happened two years ago. Removed Trundle, moved a couple to the Freljord for arbitrary reasons, I've seen compelling arguments Ashe got her character changed. That was a finished product. It got released. I'll conclude things out of released products. I'll conclude Riot doesn't care about its characters and will happily change them to fit their stories. Xeraths story in the Shurima event only reconfirms this.

On top of that, the game is entirely irrelevant to the lore now, intentionally so. The lore doesn't care one little bit about the game. There is no more immersion whatsoever. The game is just a bleak representation of the new lore. It feels hollow to just play the game.

If I sit back and watch Riot retcon this all, I won't be able to even care about the new lore, no matter how well written. If Riot doesn't care about their characters, I won't care about their lore. The game when hollow, is simply less enjoyable. I already play the game for the mechanics only, for the immersion is just gone. If I sit back, I might as well leave. Best to tell Riot to change this, see if they listen before it's too late. Riot deserves that much, after their first lore.

But I suspect Jaredan thinks everything can be solved simply by releasing more lore, giving us something to read. I guess that'll work for a lot of people. Just not for me.

Tearsong4 votes

The lore isn't finished yet though. There's only Shurima that's pretty much "done" to some extent, then probably some other stuff that I can't remember. However I can see many possibilities to link everything together through summoner's rift once it's done. They need an expandable universe that can allow for new champions to fit in without making plot holes everywhere. Before everyone just fought on the rift, why? because. Isn't that kinda... boring? I certainly enjoyed other elements like the joj which added an interesting story of the characters interacting with each other and sorting out their own problems instead of just letting the League - this all powerful organization regulate everything. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe in quantity and I would definitely be making some noise if the new lore turns out to be crap. Although isn't it wrong to judge a work in progress? Things could potentially turn out to be very different from what they first appear as.

But each to their own.

Sneak Dog33 votes

Although isn't it wrong to judge a work in progress?

The lore will never be finished. I judge released products. I will judge a book 1 in a series, for it has been released and deemed worthy of consumption by the writer. The Freljord event has been released, as has the Shurima event. If a product is available for consumption, it is available for criticism.

Before everyone just fought on the rift, why?

Before, characters fought on the rift for favors and influence. You'd see Kayle on the rift due to her deal with Ashram, you'd see Garen representing Demacia. You'd see independent champions trading favors for support or money. You'd see Zaun helping Noxus for political reasons, lending them champions.

this all powerful organization regulate everything.

The IoW at its core is the institute that stops runemagic from tearing the world apart. It is created because the various city-states like the world whole. Why is it all-powerful? If Noxus decides it doesn't like the IoW, it'll just withdraw its summoners, ask Zaun to do the same and the IoW is no more.

if the new lore turns out to be crap.

The new lore is already terrible by my standards. It's well written on its own, but it happily changes and removes previously developed characters to fit a new story.

Tearsong6 votes

Fair enough. Personally I view the current lore as part of a book, 1 chapter so far, but you could consider it a complete project. I see your point.

Fighting on the rift would make sense, if everyone had a goal that the league could help them accomplish. Nocturne was .. captured? Why's he fighting again? Anivia senses corruption within the ice and uh, the first thing she does is go to League to fight random people.. isn't that a bit weird? Dafuq is Elise doing in the League? I thought she was just trying to eat people.. she actually has time to fight random champions? These are just a few that I've pulled off the top of my head, however, it is beside the point. The idea of them fighting for a reason is great, but the idea of everyone fighting for the league is rather repetitive, and you'd have to limit your creativity and spin up another story about why they're fighting for the League. It's slightly dull after reading 10 of them, not to mention all 100+ champs. Sure some are good, like Kayle and Morg's story, Demacia and Noxus, fit perfectly, but others you can tell are forced into the lore and it doesn't flow. Also as a sidenote, why is Darius Vladimir's enemy? I saw that while going through Vlad's lore...

I'm not asking why is League all powerful, I'm saying that's detrimental to a story. When you have an all powerful entity that regulates everything it limits a story. Overpowered characters can only fight other overpowered characters and it pretty much causes a void in actual plot and narrative. It's just fight scene after fight scene. Only when a character is challenged mentally and physically can they grow. Same goes for League itself. Sure some stories make badass OP characters work, but that's because they actually give them some personality, they give them time and focus, League with it's 100+ champions and summoners and war institute and runemagic would not be able to dedicate the amount of time and love each character needs to be developed within the constraints of the old lore - sure the new lore might have the same issues (for the love of god stop neglecting champions such as Ahri and Brand, and the city Piltover, it doesn't even do anything, it's just there with it's measly 3 champions, they don't even appear in the overarching back story!!) but from what I've seen so far it's too early to make a judgment call.

Sure the new lore isn't perfect, I mean Sivir being a decedent of Azir - plz, can you make the plot armor any thicker?- but perhaps it'll fix some issues from the old lore.

I don't see what's wrong with changing a character's back story. If the current lore for a champion isn't working out, then it is time for a change rather than leaving an awkward plot hole. Yeah it does make some fanworks non-canon, but it also gives a chance for the new lore to fix things instead of being limited by the old lore.

I'm going about this all from my perspective that the lore still has much to write about and I personally need to see how they make every piece of the puzzle come together. But stories in general are really subjective, so I accept different view points.

Sneak Dog19 votes

Also as a sidenote, why is Darius Vladimir's enemy? I saw that while going through Vlad's lore...

Vladimir represents the old regime of nobles, Darius the new one.

I don't see what's wrong with changing a character's back story.

Changing the backstory is acceptable. Changing the character is not.

Fighting on the rift would make sense, if everyone had a goal that the league could help them accomplish.

There were issues. The old lore was far from perfect. The IoW was too powerful in the JoJ, imprisoned champions weren't interesting, some champions didn't have a lot of motive to be in the public, etc.

It had potential though, just as Runeterra without IoW has, however the IoW did integrate lore and gameplay, which creates immersion and helps people dive into the lore. It was also the faction that made Runeterra inherently interesting, more than just a mash-up of generic factions.

but the idea of everyone fighting for the league is rather repetitive, and you'd have to limit your creativity and spin up another story about why they're fighting for the League.

Using trade as metaphor, the IoW would be the central trading hub where all traders will pass through naturally, for it is where the trade is. Everyone who plays in the global scene would arrive at the IoW at some point or another. Everyone who didn't, wasn't very important. Also, it was used as the end-note, whereas I'd just consider it a sidenote. It doesn't have to be the main focus of every story.

Vistha Kai12 votes

FYI IoW wasn't too powerful. Far from it. All city states were acknowledging it's authority, but that's about it. If Noxus ever wanted to step up and leave League they could do it and nothing could stop them.

Just look what they did in Kalamanda.

Sneak Dog3 votes

I think it was. I think if the institute just sends some adjudicators to stop a squabble between Malzahar and Kassadin, if summoners can imprison Brand and Nocturne with only mild costs, then the IoW is too powerful. The IoW being this powerful naturally shifts the focus from the champions to the IoW, which harms the narrative. Attempting to focus on the champions in this scenario will feel artificial.

Nerfing the IoW was all that was needed in my opinion though. Already the political power was appropriately wobbly, why not the magical power?

CupcakeTrap16 votes

Although I consider the old lore to be rather ambiguous on this point, I concede that there's a good argument that the most direct reading of the old lore had the League as a bunch of "all-powerful puppetmasters", or something close to it. But the fix is so trivial as to render that irrelevant.

It's an old maxim of legal interpretation that where the law is amenable to two readings, one just and the other unjust, it behooves the court to select the just reading. Likewise, where the lore could be read (with or without slight alterations) in a good way or a stupid way, it seems clear to me that the solution is to read it the good way.

It is neither difficult, nor disruptive of established lore, to reframe the League's story as one of a struggling supranational entity fighting to prevent history from repeating itself.

For example, the Malzahar/Kassadin story does seem to imply that Champions aren't allowed to fight each other even outside of the Institute. That would be a pretty dumb lore element. But it's easy to fix that story by, e.g., saying that the problem was that they were brawling in a League-protected territory, or whatever. (I would look it up and propose something specific, but I kind of have to run.)

Sneak Dog15 votes

Basically this. I think there were some issues with the old lore, but nothing that couldn't be solved elegantly.

Doctor Ivellius12 votes

Summoners weren't invincible, though. Nocturne offed a couple, I believe, before the Institute imprisoned him, and we're not shown all that much about the costs of containing these creatures. There was also the problem of corruption within the League that never really went anywhere other than Riot using it as an excuse to stop doing the Journals of Justice.

John Berserk1 votes

Summoners are not deleted from Runeterra. The only thing thats really gone is the Institute of War, which honestly most of the Champions don't even need to exist in this world (besides, as eye-catching as it is as you explained, it's also dumb and hard for someone like me who cares a lot about lore in general to care about, at least the way they went about it previously. Idk I hate how every champ bio pretty much resulted in "And then they join the League of Legends").

Anyway, while it seems like most people are becoming more pessimistic towards Riot and their ability to produce anything lore-related, they seem to overlook the fact that Riot is constantly insisting that they ARE doing something to address everyone's frustrations, but they just can't show them yet (because where's the fun in spoilers?). I know actions definitely speak louder than words (and Riot sure is taking their time with these actions), but I don't think Riot would be this insistent if they weren't actually working on something, and I have a feeling they're working on something big.

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but as I see it, this is simply a test of patience more than anything, and I'm a patient man (I've been reading A Song of Ice and Fire since A Feast for Crows released. I know what it means to be patient.).

Earl Eulrich14 votes

Idk I hate how every champ bio pretty much resulted in started with "And then they join the League of Legends"

it´s necessary to link story and gameplay, it´s necessary to be able to tell stories about characters interacting with each other, it´s necessary as a unique setting for the story to take place,... it´s ok to tell other stories - but it´s just wasted potential to do so in this medium and with this basis.

John Berserk2 votes

I agree, definitely. Them being in the League together, which GAVE them a reason to fight alongside or against one another, DID give them unique ways for the characters to interact with one another, but as Riot said around the time the retcon happened, it feels too restrictive. It could work (DID work) for a lot Champions, but I think they started wanting to make certain types of Champions that just wouldn't work in the League, or their presence wouldn't make any sense within the Institute, or them being stuck in the Institute wouldn't allow them to have more exciting stories to be told.

Could they have made newer Champs since the rework work in the context of the old lore? Probably. Would they have been better for it? Arguable.


Here's how I see the two lores (old and new):

The old lore was easier to work with. It was simple and straightforward. It allowed for many stories to be told in quick succession without too much work being put into it or without the need of too large a budget. It was charming to say the least in its simplicity, very easy to jump in and get into, but ultimately it was restrictive.

The new lore is much more difficult to work with. It's complicated and open-ended. Stories told within the new narrative style require a TON more work and thought put into them, and require the effort of many more people from many different disciplines compared to before. There's more you can do with it ultimately, it's just taking a while for Riot to get all of what they WANT to do with it to us, and having to sit and wait with nothing in these large gaps between content releases sucks.

NorthernDruid12 votes

I've not seen anything after the retcon which wouldn't work fine before.

They might have to keep an actual narrative running for their world, and go more in depth on certain champions than others. But I have so far not seen anything that wouldn't work.

Narasimha1 votes

Eh, I have yet to see any compelling arguements for why Bard, Kalista, or even Rek'sai should be in the League. Other than the whole "They got captured", and that's just a cop out.

DG Ashabel18 votes

Frankly, I see no compelling argument why Bard, Kalista and Rek'sai should be in the game in their current state. Bard and Rek'sai are essentially non-characters defined entirely by their job description ("hooting extradimensional thief god" and "dig dig hungry punch punch hungry"), and Kalista is a dud whose personality is defined entirely by her connection to that one bit of Shadow Isles lore people are curious about. She's essentially a clumsy foreshadowing in character form.

"The old lore means we wouldn't have Bard, Kalista and Rek'sai in the game" is simply not a very compelling argument to me. I would much sooner subscribe to something like "The old lore's rigid requirement for characters to have clear ambitions and motivations could potentially challenge champion designers to turn Bard, Kalista and Rek'sai into something more than the character design equivalent of three steaming turds".

Darrosh Jewfist10 votes

Agreed. It's a joke that narrative claims the IoW was limiting, then produces these champions who lack any real motivation or reason to exist outside of for the sake of existing. They all also have virtually no real reason to interact with anybody else - they're just pockets of isolated instances of power instead of actual characters with personalities... oh god.

Personalities.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/plot-is-highly-overrated-league-of-legends-designer-says/1100-6418368/

"Tom Abernathy says developers should instead focus on developing strong characters."

Hard to take a department seriously with design philosophies like this and produce like that.

NorthernDruid7 votes

I've yet to see any arguments for why they couldn't have made deeper characters, also yet to see any arguments for why they would never, ever join the league ever and why a story leading to them becoming Champions would be impossible.

Also yet to see any arguments for why three champions was enough to retcon away the entire setting.

Like, could they have managed to create a character worthy of the league with each of these three if they'd tried. Yes, obviously.

Did they even try? We have no way of knowing.

There's also the part where they're really shallow characters.

Rek'sai and Bard doesn't even have any dialogue. (honestly I feel like anyone who wanted a female monster champion got kinda screwed over with Rek'sai, since she doesn't have any personality or motivation to speak of at all)

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