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Was the marksman rework the best rework so far?

Woook3r··6 votes·796 views

I played a lot of adc today and yesterday. Its the most adc Ive played since the rework. I have to admit, I'm starting to sweeten up to the role again now that I have figured out what exactly the rework did for the class and how to take advantage of it. It pretty amazing how balanced it is, and yet its exactly what adc's have needed.

Benefits of the rework:

+Easy to get 100% crit (double down on the zeal items after ie and then buy er). +You don't have to worry about sacrificing your sustain for crit powerspikes (i.e. bloodthirster vs warlords) +There is usually a good item in the shop for you if you back with 1300 gold ( Just found out that you are doing 0 dmg to renekton? Last Whisper costs 1300. Did you rush IE and then proc exactly 0 crits in the last fight? Damn. Well, Zeal gives 20%, costs 1300) +Merc gives LS now +Rapid Fire Cannon! +Actual choices between your Crit items. Except don't pick Static shyv. Go runnans.

Failings ab the rework (or things that you just might be salty about):

-Some of the champion specific reworks probably were not that good (maybe we just need to put some effort into relearning kog maw. Maybe Mf really isn't overpowered...kappa).

41 Comments

Critmaster Garen4 votes

the juggernaut rework was better.

it made 3 low mobility champs champions that were irelevant and pupstompers for years viable at all levels of play in each their own way. instead of 2 month complete mess in balance like with the marksmen it took 2 patches to even them out. the only one theyre struggling with is morde. but hy, 3/4 reworks were still a success.

after the rework bruisers were finally in a state were they could carry games again. the last time this was the case was season 2. the new items didnt cause colleteral damage and didnt unintentionally break champions like the marksmen items.

marksmen still need tuning down. and the effects of these changes will probably take the entire year to fully manifest. for example their lategame right now is absolutely broken due to the 100% crit chance and essence reaver. phantom dancers is op aswell. vaynes w passive buff was insane. in many cases it doesnt show a lot right now, because games are so short that theyre ending before certain adc hit their power spikes.

most noticable right now are early game marksmen like mf and lucian. a lot of the lategame marksmen are more or less hidden op right now.

Woook3r1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sRtQIEOF,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-01-04T21:28:37.841+0000)

the juggernaut rework was better.

it made 3 low mobility champs champions that were irelevant and pupstompers for years viable at all levels of play in each their own way. instead of 2 month complete mess in balance like with the marksmen it took 2 patches to even them out. the only one theyre struggling with is morde. but hy, 3/4 reworks were still a success.

after the rework bruisers were finally in a state were they could carry games again. the last time this was the case was season 2. the new items didnt cause colleteral damage and didnt unintentionally break champions like the marksmen items.

marksmen still need tuning down. and the effects of these changes will probably take the entire year to fully manifest. for example their lategame right now is absolutely broken due to the 100% crit chance and essence reaver. phantom dancers is op aswell. vaynes w passive buff was insane. in many cases it doesnt show a lot right now, because games are so short that theyre ending before certain adc hit their power spikes.

most noticable right now are early game marksmen like mf and lucian. a lot of the lategame marksmen are more or less hidden op right now.

Skarner + Mordekaiser = 2 champions out of 4

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Skarner + Mordekaiser = 2 champions out of 4

skarner was overtuned for a few days. after they hotfixed him, he sat at just above 50% winrate.

people just had PTSD from the 2 days he was actually op as fuck and kept banning him for month. same for darius even when they nerfed him to 45% winrate.

Woook3r1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sRtQIEOF,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2016-01-04T22:35:37.944+0000)

skarner was overtuned for a few days. after they hotfixed him, he sat at just above 50% winrate.

people just had PTSD from the 2 days he was actually op as fuck and kept banning him for month. same for darius even when they nerfed him to 45% winrate.

I once came across a person who renamed their account to "TotalSkarnage" shortly after the release of the rework. Just lol.

Woook3r1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sRtQIEOF,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-01-04T21:28:37.841+0000)

the juggernaut rework was better.

it made 3 low mobility champs champions that were irelevant and pupstompers for years viable at all levels of play in each their own way. instead of 2 month complete mess in balance like with the marksmen it took 2 patches to even them out. the only one theyre struggling with is morde. but hy, 3/4 reworks were still a success.

after the rework bruisers were finally in a state were they could carry games again. the last time this was the case was season 2. the new items didnt cause colleteral damage and didnt unintentionally break champions like the marksmen items.

marksmen still need tuning down. and the effects of these changes will probably take the entire year to fully manifest. for example their lategame right now is absolutely broken due to the 100% crit chance and essence reaver. phantom dancers is op aswell. vaynes w passive buff was insane. in many cases it doesnt show a lot right now, because games are so short that theyre ending before certain adc hit their power spikes.

most noticable right now are early game marksmen like mf and lucian. a lot of the lategame marksmen are more or less hidden op right now.

I don't really want to debate the quality of the champion reworks. None of the adc's I play got reworked to a significant degree. I have nothing to say.

With regard to what they did to the items, it was a friggin great rework and that's more or less what I was talking about. The juggernaut item rework was sort of just a rebalancing in comparison.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

I don't really want to debate the quality of the champion reworks. None of the adc's I play got reworked to a significant degree. I have nothing to say.

With regard to what they did to the items, it was a friggin great rework and that's more or less what I was talking about. The juggernaut item rework was sort of just a rebalancing in comparison.

as far as the adc item changes go, they barely accomplished anything.

essence reaver is op and buffed the hell out of a couple of adc with damage spells. every other adc still builds the same run of the mill items. rapid fire cannon over shiv, infinity edge, giant slayer.

Woook3r1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sRtQIEOF,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2016-01-04T22:38:23.744+0000)

as far as the adc item changes go, they barely accomplished anything.

essence reaver is op and buffed the hell out of a couple of adc with damage spells. every other adc still builds the same run of the mill items. rapid fire cannon over shiv, infinity edge, giant slayer.

I would beg to differ. There are some real choices in there. Static shyv and runnans overlap too much, true. Static might as well not exist, but you sound ridiculous saying 'every other adc builds the same run of the mill...rapid fire cannon, giant slayer". Those two items are completely unique and completely new.

What new item did they give to juggernauts? A slightly different hydra? I'm sorry, what?

That's still not even mentioning the fact that the build paths are so much more fluid and reactive. %armor pen comes at 1300g now, there is the fact that 100% crit is really possible with 20% coming from zeal (did you know that IE is almost useless by itself?), and that I have guaranteed 15% liffesteal from a mastery when I am at 100% crit. I don't have to set my self back in order to build sustain anymore. That's a lot buster.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted} What new item did they give to juggernauts? A slightly different hydra? I'm sorry, what?

and steraks and dead mans. they also improved the build path of mallet. there is actually a lot of item diversity for them now.

which isnt surprising, as most defensive items are rather situational. while adc still just build the combination of the largest auto attack multipliers. which is usually the same couple of items.

Sightless661 votes

it made 3 low mobility champs champions that were irelevant and pupstompers for years viable at all levels of play in each their own way.

  1. Not 3. Skarner already spends most of his time nowadays completely forgotten and irrelevant, the least we can do for him is not think that anything he got was fun or interesting.
Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

  1. Not 3. Skarner already spends most of his time nowadays completely forgotten and irrelevant, the least we can do for him is not think that anything he got was fun or interesting.

i think it was a good rework. he was doing fine without being op after some of the patches. no idea why riot pussed out on it.

Sightless661 votes

I can't call the rework a success when a balanced champion is competing with Morde for unpopularity. If he drops another percentage point he'll actually be less popular than he was before the rework, even though he's still stronger than he was before the rework.

i think it was a good rework. he was doing fine without being op after some of the patches. no idea why riot pussed out on it.

No, he was op. He had a well-deserved 54% winrate. That's why he got nerfed. He's balanced right now, but he feels terrible because his design suuuuuuuuucks. The spires are ungodly boring.

His rework failed. People will say it didn't, just like they said about the first and second reworks, but it's turning out just as bad as either of them.

Big Lincoln2 votes

if i saw more than 3 ADCs every single game maybe i'd like the rework

warlord's getting removed would please me too because getting sustain for crit is by far the dumbest mastery riot put in

Woook3r1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Bards,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sRtQIEOF,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-01-04T20:13:40.680+0000)

if i saw more than 3 ADCs every single game maybe i'd like the rework

warlord's getting removed would please me too because getting sustain for crit is by far the dumbest mastery riot put in

I don't think so. Its really what ties the new marksman build path together. It was VERY hard to carry if you needed or tried to build bloodthirster after IE or after static shyvv. On the other hand. It was very hard to carry without any form of sustain at all. Now you probably only build sustain if you were getting crushed in lane. Which makes sense. U should have to recover from that.

This is the mastery that makes is feasible for a marksman to build pure dmg and it rewards a marksman who puts out more dmg than received (i.e. kites well).

If you were referring to yasuo, yes it is abusive. Feel free to ban him.

Big Lincoln1 votes

i don't really struggle dealing with yasuo so I only ban him if I'm worried my team will pick him

i don't think glass cannons should get sustain for refusing to build it; there needs to be a choice between what you invest in. I don't get MR for building armor so I can double-dip into tank stats; I need to pick what I'm building or settle for building components of both.

ADCs having sustain, mana sustain and CDR just for building crit is too much

Woook3r2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Bards,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sRtQIEOF,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-04T20:43:39.545+0000)

i don't really struggle dealing with yasuo so I only ban him if I'm worried my team will pick him

i don't think glass cannons should get sustain for refusing to build it; there needs to be a choice between what you invest in. I don't get MR for building armor so I can double-dip into tank stats; I need to pick what I'm building or settle for building components of both.

ADCs having sustain, mana sustain and CDR just for building crit is too much

They have to have something man. Also, I was wondering if you noticed that rod of ages gives you flat hp, Hp sustain, flat mana, mana sustain, and ap. But the sustain that ROA gives is sort of the opposite of the sustain from warlords. U don't have access to warlords in the early game, but u do have access to catalyst in the early game.

Look at tanks and bruisers. They build hp and armor and get free dmg from the fact that they can survive while being dmgd by multiple ppl. Its the equal opposite of an adc which gets survivability from the dmg they do.

Big Lincoln1 votes

ROA only gives sustain when you level up; Warlord's is always there and scales much better (sustain-wise; ROA scales very hard everywhere else). Catalyst also needs

tanks and bruisers generally rely on their base damage to hurt squishies; a lot of bruisers need to buy sustain on top of their tankiness to survive for a long time. Carry champions have a host of lifesteal items; they can afford to buy them.

I would have preferred something that's just a damage steroid but that's too niche and easily abusable. that's kind of the problem with a crit-based mastery in the first place as opposed to Thunderlord's, which is a very general mastery that's simply overtuned right now; and a majority of other masteries which can work on a lot of champs

Woook3r1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Bards,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sRtQIEOF,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-04T21:35:10.944+0000)

tanks and bruisers generally rely on their base damage to hurt squishies; a lot of bruisers need to buy sustain on top of their tankiness to survive for a long time. Carry champions have a host of lifesteal items; they can afford to buy them.

Its funny you say this. Anyone can affor to buy armor. It is the most gold efficient class of item in the game.

U say carries can affor to buy lifesteal items, and you mean that they have enough gold bc they are easily take the creeps from tanks. But really, someone who is trying to carry cant afford to buy them, because the lack of crit in the face of hyper effective armor items means that those items actually set them behind by a great deal.

Lowkey Thicc1 votes

If Thunderlord's didn't get removed or changed then no it isn't the dumbest. But it would come in a close 2nd in my opinion.

Ralanr1 votes

Thunderlords is a lot more stupid.

Who doesn't want more burst? Everyone loves burst!

I hate seeing more than 3 of the same mastery on the enemy team or my own.

Big Lincoln1 votes

Thunderlord's is a very general mastery and imo it fits the feeling of season 6 a lot more than something as niche (and abusable in target scenarios) as warlord's.

it was overbuffed which is why we're seeing it everywhere in combination with others being nerfed

Ralanr1 votes

It doesn't encourage any sort of build.

Big Lincoln1 votes

it doesn't need to; it's meant as an extra for early game power

a lot of masteries are somewhere in between; they're very general but not completely one-size-fits-all; Thunderlord's is a nice generalist pick and that's a good thing. Warlord's is the other extreme where a very small class of champions can actually make use of it, but I prefer, at least design-wise, the appeal of having multiple options

Ralanr1 votes

Then the generallist choice shouldn't be stronger than the specialist choice.

I know the other masteries are getting buffed, I'm just pissed at the fact that I've seen everyone on the enemy team have thunderlords. Even tanks and non-poke support!

Wolfram Oxford2 votes

Vayne ....

Woook3r1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wolfram Oxford,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sRtQIEOF,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-01-04T20:33:31.255+0000)

Vayne ....

the did touch vayne didn't they. I wouldn't call it a rework exactly tho. However, she feels like she likes a typical marksman build path now. Bork got a nerf and her passive got a buff IMO.

Wolfram Oxford1 votes

You are right, but she still feels like the most powerful marksman in the right hands.

Woook3r1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wolfram Oxford,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sRtQIEOF,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-01-04T20:48:41.697+0000)

You are right, but she still feels like the most powerful marksman in the right hands.

In what way? Her ability to duel and win a 2v1 or 3v1?

TehNACHO2 votes

Maybe her sub 50% win rate and being outperformed in raw damage by Ashe?

Wolfram Oxford1 votes

Out damaging a Vayne, when you say such a thing a kappa should be added at the end.

TehNACHO1 votes

Kappa

Phoenix Kotori 1 votes

Because She's extremely popular.

Vayne supposedly takes **skill **so if she's sitting at 30+% play rate & yet has over 50% win rate she's probably overtuned.

TehNACHO1 votes

Except that's exactly the thing.

She doesn't have a +50% win rate, at most levels of play, she only barely scrapes mid 49%.

Phoenix Kotori 1 votes

that's a good thing it means she balanced because she's a skill based champion when she's around 30% pick rate like she is now she **should ** be below 50% win rate because not everyone playing her is a skilled vayne player.

TehNACHO1 votes

Which is funny because even at platinum+ levels of gameplay, she still only hovers at 49%.

I'm slightly confused about why you are badgering me. I'm trying to point out she's not the most powerful marksman in the game, and you seem to come to a similar conclusion.

Wolfram Oxford1 votes

Haha yeah, or even if you get lucky with the legendary 1v5, any other adc has a hard time doing an outplay of this level.

Woook3r1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wolfram Oxford,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sRtQIEOF,comment-id=00020000000000000001,timestamp=2016-01-04T21:00:03.280+0000)

Haha yeah, or even if you get lucky with the legendary 1v5, any other adc has a hard time doing an outplay of this level.

Um. No every adc has a hard time of doing any outplay even remotely at this lvl.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

well. if vayne couldn't 3 shot you now she can.

TheProAndrew1 votes

yaa sure rework Quinn KogMaw Graves Caitlyn Corki

and 9/10 i see a Lucian Graves and MissFortune

KogMaw its just garbage now, if u dont trust me... trust his win rate

Dominick Destine1 votes

Best reworks were probably Ryze and Gangplank.

Worst rework , easily, hands down, was Cassiopeia with Mordekaiser a distant second.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

both marksmen and juggernaut reworks were just really bad.

Juggernauts are even more low-elo-stompers as they are esier to kite now, but stronger if they donßt get kited

marksmen upgrade just killed the game in general...some of the changes to champs had been fine, some just outright horrible (ashe gets a phage-proc, but before they take out phage because random slows are bad for the game etc.).

the last really good rework they did had been Sion, they really should stick with those long-term-rework projects, those fast&furious things dont work out too well.

Woook3r1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sRtQIEOF,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-01-04T23:51:40.007+0000)

both marksmen and juggernaut reworks were just really bad.

Juggernauts are even more low-elo-stompers as they are esier to kite now, but stronger if they donßt get kited

marksmen upgrade just killed the game in general...some of the changes to champs had been fine, some just outright horrible (ashe gets a phage-proc, but before they take out phage because random slows are bad for the game etc.).

the last really good rework they did had been Sion, they really should stick with those long-term-rework projects, those fast&furious things dont work out too well.

I have no idea what you are saying ab ash. I thought she got slows...

Also, like I was saying I don't really play any of the reworked marksmen. The ones I do play feel the same as before, but with a lot of heartache removed because items are easier to build and I don't need to worry ab buying bloodthirster or saving for lw.

Are a couple of overpowered marksmen really degrading the game to that degree?

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