Riots Solution to Immobile Mages (make them more mobile)
Fucking hilarious.
Fucking hilarious.
This feedback is feels pretty hyperbolic to be honest, as it takes one small piece of an entire system of changes, and then claims that that piece is representative of the entire system.
Part of "Riot's Solution to Immobile Mages" that you guys already know about (and there may be more) includes keeping Malzahar's Nether Grasp for its value in locking down mobility, as well as adding a new debuff to the game that directly attacks mobility.
Maybe this post was meant to be funny or something, but it doesn't really set the tone for an actual meaningful conversation, seeing as the body of your post didn't manage to get any more insightful than "Fucking hilarious."
Well, it's the same old story. Every time new changes are introduced, even HIGHLY experimental ones, and the community goes absolutely bananas you'd think they're all Soraka mains.
Total overreaction if you ask me.
[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NG7BJn1z,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2016-04-07T21:02:18.320+0000)
Total overreaction if you ask me.
Yeah,the items updates aren't even on the PBE yet.People should calm down & at least wait to see how this works in game (either by playing on the PBE themselves or watching PBE footage).
They're still highly experimental and could probably even be changed the next day.
[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NG7BJn1z,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2016-04-07T21:02:18.320+0000)
Well, it's the same old story. Every time new changes are introduced, even HIGHLY experimental ones, and the community goes absolutely bananas you'd think they're all Soraka mains.
Total overreaction if you ask me.
Can you honestly tell us that you're not excited about hextech rocket on mordekaiser?
I know I might pick up kennen again because of it.
I'm excited, yes, but I won't voice my opinion on the matter before I've tested it myself. All we know about the item are the stats and active but we haven't seen it in action yet and it may not even go through.
[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NG7BJn1z,comment-id=000a000000010000,timestamp=2016-04-07T21:31:24.673+0000)
I'm excited, yes, but I won't voice my opinion on the matter before I've tested it myself. All we know about the item are the stats and active but we haven't seen it in action yet and it may not even go through.
That's the right attitude. What I'm more upset about are the stat reductions on items (except zhonya's).
Maybe this post was meant to be funny or something, but it doesn't really set the tone for an actual meaningful conversation, seeing as the body of your post didn't manage to get any more insightful than "Fucking hilarious."
What more needs to be explained? I thought it was common knowledge that mobility is an issue and that the ideal solution would be to eliminate or at the very least reduce extraneous speed / dashes rather than give it to everyone.
To be fair, other than the new mobility item for mages, it feels like the itemization changes are in general a nerf to the AP class, we lost a lot of mana per 5 options, and Zhonya's is less effective than it was before. I feel that this is going to most heavily affect AP assassins such as LeBlanc and Diana, who often rush Abyssal then to Hourglass because they both lost a ton of value from their items.
Another question, are you trying to make Tear a core item for mages? Just asking.
Maybe it's because anytime anyone gives ACTUAL critique it gets ignored if there isn't at least SOME ego stroking thrown in.
Posts with only negative feedback, REGARDLESS of whether it's correct and totally logical, historically get no response.
Only posts that are primarily inquisitive (so y'all can look smart), positive, (so y'all can feel good) or, ironically, thoughtless shitposts (so y'all can paint it like anyone giving negative feedback is a shitposter) get red responses.
Sorry if it's a hard pill to swallow, but it's the truth: Rioters can't handle their work being criticized or scrutinized. "Praise us or you're wrong" has commonly been the attitude for a couple years now.
So now you get stupid posts like OP because it's apparently the ONLY time you guys actually pay attention to players who DON'T like what you're doing these days. Anything else gets written off as "well I work at Riot so I obviously know better".
Maybe it's because anytime anyone gives ACTUAL critique it gets ignored if there isn't at least SOME ego stroking thrown in.
Posts with only negative feedback, REGARDLESS of whether it's correct and totally logical, historically get no response.
Only posts that are primarily inquisitive (so y'all can look smart), positive, (so y'all can feel good) or, ironically, thoughtless shitposts (so y'all can paint it like anyone giving negative feedback is a shitposter) get red responses.
Sorry if it's a hard pill to swallow, but it's the truth: Rioters can't handle their work being criticized or scrutinized. "Praise us or you're wrong" has commonly been the attitude for a couple years now.
So now you get stupid posts like OP because it's apparently the ONLY time you guys actually pay attention to players who DON'T like what you're doing these days. Anything else gets written off as "well I work at Riot so I obviously know better".
Ironically this post will be ignored by riot
This feedback is feels pretty hyperbolic to be honest, as it takes one small piece of an entire system of changes, and then claims that that piece is representative of the entire system.
Part of "Riot's Solution to Immobile Mages" that you guys already know about (and there may be more) includes keeping Malzahar's Nether Grasp for its value in locking down mobility, as well as adding a new debuff to the game that directly attacks mobility.
Maybe this post was meant to be funny or something, but it doesn't really set the tone for an actual meaningful conversation, seeing as the body of your post didn't manage to get any more insightful than "Fucking hilarious."
NGL I laughed when I read it
But is lack of mobility even a problem that needs to be 'solved'? I wouldn't mind hearing more about the thinking that went into the item, and if there's any fear that like deadman's plate before it, itll just become the must buy option for every mage regardless of their mobility
But is lack of mobility even a problem that needs to be 'solved'? I wouldn't mind hearing more about the thinking that went into the item, and if there's any fear that like deadman's plate before it, itll just become the must buy option for every mage regardless of their mobility
I don't know if "lack of mobility" needs to be solved, but I do think that there either needs to be costs to mobility or answers to it for those who lack it, and my personal opinion is that LoL hasn't done a good job of putting appropriate costs on mobility in the last few years, and so I feel compelled to give champions that don't have burst mobility a few more of those answers to it.
But in the State of the Game podcast, Meddler (and others) said they added too much mobility during the adc update. I think it's easy to see why the community is skeptical of mobility creep from items.
I don't know if "lack of mobility" needs to be solved, but I do think that there either needs to be costs to mobility or answers to it for those who lack it, and my personal opinion is that LoL hasn't done a good job of putting appropriate costs on mobility in the last few years, and so I feel compelled to give champions that don't have burst mobility a few more of those answers to it.
Poppy's W is an example of an answer to mobility. "More mobility" is not.
It's possible that they're both different answers, given the tradeoff you make to buy any item (particularly the slot or the opportunity cost of another).
That said, you could be correct :)
I don't know if "lack of mobility" needs to be solved, but I do think that there either needs to be costs to mobility or answers to it for those who lack it, and my personal opinion is that LoL hasn't done a good job of putting appropriate costs on mobility in the last few years, and so I feel compelled to give champions that don't have burst mobility a few more of those answers to it.
But it's going to be just as usable by champs with mobility. Now Ekko has four forms of mobility! What about AP tanks with strong initiations? Do you really think it's a good idea to let Nautilus spend 2750 on an item that lets him dash every 30s? Or Blitz? Or Amumu? Or Zac?
But it's going to be just as usable by champs with mobility. Now Ekko has four forms of mobility! What about AP tanks with strong initiations? Do you really think it's a good idea to let Nautilus spend 2750 on an item that lets him dash every 30s? Or Blitz? Or Amumu? Or Zac?
Honestly, I don't really, absolutely think it's a good idea, but I think it's one worth trying.
Honestly, I don't really, absolutely think it's a good idea, but I think it's one worth trying.
That would be a fine idea, if trying new ideas in this game didn't so often end with the players enduring the results from the tests. Look at original Warlord's Bloodlust. PBE people told you it was broken. Live server people warned you it would be broken. You put it through, anyway. Then we had to deal with the consequences for far too long. Graves is still ridiculous and it's literally been months. The reason we react so bombastically to terrible, ill-conceived ideas is that Riot doesn't acknowledge failure and revert a bad change. They double down on the idea and we have to deal with a myriad of tiny changes to other parts of a kit instead of simply undoing their mistake.
I don't know if "lack of mobility" needs to be solved, but I do think that there either needs to be costs to mobility or answers to it for those who lack it, and my personal opinion is that LoL hasn't done a good job of putting appropriate costs on mobility in the last few years, and so I feel compelled to give champions that don't have burst mobility a few more of those answers to it.
I noticed that in your cass kit (which looked pretty cool!) but more directed at the hextech items, I'm wondering what the thought process behind them is
I assume they're designed to give immobile mages some answers to mobility to choose from (sustain, a slow, a dash that annie and malz will probably like, etc)
my questions are more like, what stops high mobility champs from also getting these items other than just not being worth the item space? and why pick the icy bolt item over a rylais? And why, slightly related cus its on the belt, put all the new CDR options on items that are situational but common, which makes it hard to plan out how much CDR you'll end up with?
ie my fav mid is Azir, and some games I buy zhonyas, some I buy abyssal, some I get both items and some I get neither. Often I don't know what items I'll be getting because it'll depend on who gets fed and becomes a threat to me. sorry I know this part is tangential and you're not even the item guy.
my questions are more like, what stops high mobility champs from also getting these items other than just not being worth the item space?
It's probably not that they absolutely cannot buy them, but I imagine that they have other needs as well that also need to be met. LeBlanc, for example, probably needs to solve Mana issues, and this item doesn't help her do that at all. Fizz delays Lich Bane or Zhonya's to get this, or he gets it instead of something with more raw damage like a Void Staff.
Maybe it's just overkill on champions that already have mobility, and so they won't frequently buy it. Or maybe it's broken and they always will! These are the kinds of things worth testing. There's definitely some sort of tension in AP itemization where buying something feels like giving up something else (at least temporarily), so I imagine that holds true here as well, but we'll see.
Do you consider that to be a good thing? Giving something up (at least temporarily) for something else immediately? I mean, part of what sucks the most about being a mage in the early game, is that we've lost a lot of our "generalist" items. And I know that your design as a whole has sort of been against generalization in most regards...
But a mage who has mana, but no AP, is frustrating to play. Just like a mage who has AP but no mana is equally frustrating to play (depending on the mage). Now I know that there can't be a surplus of both, but a lot of these items look a great deal like mages are intended to basically just survive until 2 items. Is this intended? That mages will just inherently have a weaker early game? Because I think that's been over-done this year already. Mages are reliant on a lot of types of stats, and I honestly don't see any reasonable generalist item here that doesn't severely hit their early game capabilities. MAYBE morellonomicon..?
Thoughts?
Do you consider that to be a good thing? Giving something up (at least temporarily) for something else immediately?
Honestly, that seems pretty appropriate to me. There are still decent generalist options in the early game, though. Morellonomicon now builds out of Lost Chapter, which has both Mana and AP, so you can get a bit of each if you want. Tear is a pretty strong declaration that you're trying to outscale with a late-game mindset, and Catalyst is more of a declaration of intent to engage in trades that grind the opponent down. At least, these are the kinds of decisions that I think are supposed to come out of the system, though if it wasn't tuned perfectly for that to be a reality at the moment, that wouldn't be too surprising, I suppose.
So pretty much an entire class got relegated to become dependent on surviving till late game in a game which currently seems bullheadedly favoring early game and tower taking.
Not a straight up nerf at all........
This sucks cause honestly I've been waiting Half a Yearfor this update but now it only seems like a ap assassin buff and nerf to all other mages.
I guess my concern is that these sort of specialized items tend to be less about strategic choice, and more about champion choice. For example, even if I wanted to engage in trades as annie, catalyst probably isn't the right first item to go against a zed. Mage itemization has always been largely reactionary, rather than planting a flag and saying "I'm going to do THIS, today."
This is where having Morellonomicon as the only item that gives an effective amount of early game power will probably mean it's really the only choice for a mage who wants to win lane. A lot of these items seem to be aimed at providing strategies for the early game (strategies, not necessarily benefits), and not actually providing enough to allow the mage to stay competitive.
And if I can quickly say.... the new chalice looks.... just awful. I mean, that needs some serious revision. I can't think of a time when I would want 100% more base health regen over 100% mana regen. even if I'm close to death. Having your mana regen turned off for health regen seems... Really unhelpful. Anyway, thanks for answering.
However without specialist items to cover for the missing generalist items' weaknesses or missing power; mages' overall will become significantly weaker!
Honestly, that seems pretty appropriate to me. There are still decent generalist options in the early game, though. Morellonomicon now builds out of Lost Chapter, which has both Mana and AP, so you can get a bit of each if you want. Tear is a pretty strong declaration that you're trying to outscale with a late-game mindset, and Catalyst is more of a declaration of intent to engage in trades that grind the opponent down. At least, these are the kinds of decisions that I think are supposed to come out of the system, though if it wasn't tuned perfectly for that to be a reality at the moment, that wouldn't be too surprising, I suppose.
Late game, lol, ok
It's probably not that they absolutely cannot buy them, but I imagine that they have other needs as well that also need to be met. LeBlanc, for example, probably needs to solve Mana issues, and this item doesn't help her do that at all. Fizz delays Lich Bane or Zhonya's to get this, or he gets it instead of something with more raw damage like a Void Staff.
Maybe it's just overkill on champions that already have mobility, and so they won't frequently buy it. Or maybe it's broken and they always will! These are the kinds of things worth testing. There's definitely some sort of tension in AP itemization where buying something feels like giving up something else (at least temporarily), so I imagine that holds true here as well, but we'll see.
It will be a great item for a 4th ish item for people like Leblanc and Fizz and it will make everyone hate them MORE.
Yes it will make some people more viable and give them more options... but those champs will often have the same weaknesses as the already highly mobile champs.
This is a risk of the item, yes. To be fair, Xypherous called it out as experimental, so, yeah...
What happens if it turns out to do more harm than good? Completely scrapping a fire themed Hextech item would be kinda sad and the stats (hp,cdr,ap) benefit manaless ap champs like Rumble, Vlad and Morde greatly.
Would be giving it another active if the dash breaks the game be an option?
I don't know if "lack of mobility" needs to be solved, but I do think that there either needs to be costs to mobility or answers to it for those who lack it, and my personal opinion is that LoL hasn't done a good job of putting appropriate costs on mobility in the last few years, and so I feel compelled to give champions that don't have burst mobility a few more of those answers to it.
I think one critical question to answer is whether more mobility gives diminishing or increasing returns.
If giving a Champion +1 blink has diminishing returns, then I think creating broader access to mobility (through items, spells, etc.) is an effective way to "nerf" hyper-mobile Champions without actually taking away mobility those Champions are built around. In a "diminishing returns" model, your first flash gives tons of extra power, your next flash gives you somewhat less additional power, and so on. This might the case because, for instance, a match contains a sequence of "flash opportunities" that can be "purchased" by using a flash, and people who play smart will naturally tend to reserve their flash for the highest-value opportunities; additional flashes, then, simply let you buy second-best options, and third-best options, and so on. For example, let's say there are three opportunities: (1) Flash-baron-steal-ace (2) strong teamfight initiation (3) escaping a gank. A hyper-mobile Champion with two blinks might use the rocket belt to also pick up the third option, a moderate gain. But an immobile Champion with only one blink to start with would pick up the second option, a significant gain.
If giving a Champion +1 blink has increasing returns, then it's quite the opposite, as already-mobile Champions will gain more from these items than their less-mobile peers. An increasing returns situation would be one where, e.g., you can do awesome things with two flashes used in sequence that you could never do with just one, and thus a Champion going from one flash to two flashes gains more power than another Champion who goes from zero flashes to one flash.
My intuition is that, on most Champions and in most circumstances, mobility has diminishing returns, so I'm tentatively for something like the rocket belt. I say "tentatively" because, as you yourself are obviously fully aware, it could have all kinds of unforeseen, complex outcomes. (Cue Jeff Goldblum.)
But I'm unambiguously in favor of trying it, at least on PBE. Isn't this part of what PBE is for? Getting large-volume, rapid feedback on sometimes quite revolutionary proposed changes. Sometimes I almost feel like Riot should distinguish between PBE updates, e.g., as "first-run" versus "pre-release". With the former being "hey let's see what happens" initial changes, and the latter being "okay, we're pretty sure we want this on live, so we're just running it through PBE for bug checks and stuff" revisions. That way, people might not freak out so much when they see "first-run" changes that give Tryndamere an AoE knockup ultimate and retcon Amumu's lore to a story about a trick-or-treater cursed to wear his bad mummy costume forever.
But I'm unambiguously in favor of trying it, at least on PBE. Isn't this part of what PBE is for?
Good post, and yeah, ideally this is more of what PBE is for. It can be hard though, because history has given players the expectation that what they see is basically final.
Good post, and yeah, ideally this is more of what PBE is for. It can be hard though, because history has given players the expectation that what they see is basically final.
Thanks! I agree. It's part of why I mentioned that Riot might even want to go so far as labeling changes either "first-run" or "pre-release", to provide some context when the changes hit Surrender@20 or wherever.
By the way, thanks for showing up in this thread to talk to people. I love when Rioters do that.
At least you admit their is a history problem.
But every time something hits the PBE(gameplay wise) and players have an problems with it, riot says to late the work went through. Example mordikasier.
How is this any different?
I don't know if "lack of mobility" needs to be solved, but I do think that there either needs to be costs to mobility or answers to it for those who lack it, and my personal opinion is that LoL hasn't done a good job of putting appropriate costs on mobility in the last few years, and so I feel compelled to give champions that don't have burst mobility a few more of those answers to it.
Thing is for YEARS people have been saying that Riot doesn't give an appropriate cost to mobility. I think that's why his ...yes very hyperbolic... criticism hits home for so many people.
Yep, understandable sentiment. I don't fault anyone for being concerned.
you could work on fixing the ultra high mobility, high damage, no mana cost champs.

RiotRepertoir, I think the issue is the rocket belt being a second flash that any AP champ could exploit.
To be fair, that's probably one of the most ironic things I've ever seen/heard being/being planned to be implemented since this game's launch.
And it's not just about adding things to stop mobility. Mobility isn't necessarily bad, but it's a huge advantage for those who have it, and the value of mobility isn't always centered around offence. Immobile mages should be more powerful and not just compensated with utility.
and
IMO are examples of good immobile mage design. Their damage isn't oriented around 100% landing skillshots, they have a fair amount of range to their abilities, and can be a threat to an entire team if not dealt with. I'd add
too, but she's becoming a support.
Adding an extra
item for mages, highly favoring those who can snowball like
and
, while reducing the AP on most items further reducing power is not the answer mages need.
Totally agreed. This is incredibly lazy work on Riot's behalf. They have no idea what they're doing in terms of balancing mages. "Add a dash, and see where things go." is not just terribly thought out - It's directly against their stated design philosophy of accentuating strengths and weaknesses.
Riot, if your solution to mages not being mobile is to make them occasionally mobile, you have no idea what the identity of an immobile mage is, or what they add to a team. It seems like they're just totally lost at this point.
This feedback is feels pretty hyperbolic to be honest
Hyperbole basically means "exaggerating". Wanna know a nice example for that?
"SoloQ will come in a few weeks"
"SoloQ will come in a few months"
Followed by:
"There is a world without soloQ"
[slayer-jinx-catface]
On the one hand, yes, the OP is kind of just raging non-constructively. On the other hand, let's assume there is a point to be made and address it instead of responding with a generic "you're being non-constructive" which while correct and not ragey is equally non-constructive. You are thinking about introducing a tool which would allow mages access to a 300 range dash at the cost of building a kindlegem instead of a more damaging item. You are doing this as part of a project to increase the competitive viability and game health of a number of characters you have labelled "immobile mages". The concern here is that this tool will be mandatory on immobile mages, which will not actually fix the underlying problem which is that characters without mobility skills cannot compete with their mobile counterparts. How do you plan to address those concerns?
"Just play Zed or Yasuo already FFS!" -Rito Gamz
Well, the solution to immobility is mobility, sooo~
No. Its to reduce the scaling potential of mobility champions so that immobile champions have an edge somewhere. Theres no intended weakness of mobility right now and Im not aware of any history of an intended weakness.
or increasing immobile mages stats to give them more survivability.
Imagine if all mobile champs were mana-reliant and all immoble champs used energy :o
The intended weakness once upon a time was extreme fragility to CC/Tanks/Bruisers and the like. Sadly, that line was crossed long ago.
Inb4 at least half of the mages being looked at get some form of mobility, either MS boost or dash variety.
"Wizard Hop"