Can we just make it so that ranged champions...

Pierce The Veal·Nov 2, 2016·1 votes·760 views

Deal 10% less damage and CC and take 10% increased damage and CC VS melees? This would be a built in mechanic of the game, which doesn't affect ranged vs ranged, but at least gives melees a slight chance to fight back.

Simply put, range is dominating everything except the jungle (and even there we have some ranged champs becoming extremely strong). This way, there's at least some compensation for trying to get into a ranged champion's face to deal damage.

Edit 1: Dowvnoting without responding is a crime. It shows you're clearly not interested in actually contributing, and just want to push this post out of sight, perhaps because it bothers you in some way, perhaps because you're lazy, or perhaps because you yourself play ranged and think they should automaticaly win over melee champions.

Edit 2: if this breaks a handful of champions, we can just balance them accordingly.

37 Comments

AbyssphereNov 2, 20164 votes

Or we could just wait for buffs and nerfs to champions and systems to bring melee champions into a better spot in top lane and maybe support and then leave it at that.

Ranged champions have gotten out of line multiple times in the past, just as melees have. Riot has never had to do an over the top "melee and range behave differently" change to fix that before. Don't know why everyone is suggesting these massively broad, game-changing "fixes" when literally all that needs to happen is nerfs to a select few top laners and supports.

Pierce The VealNov 2, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Or we could just wait for buffs and nerfs to champions and systems to bring melee champions into a better spot in top lane and maybe support and then leave it at that.

Ranged champions have gotten out of line multiple times in the past, just as melees have. Riot has never had to do an over the top "melee and range behave differently" change to fix that before. Don't know why everyone is suggesting these massively broad, game-changing "fixes" when literally all that needs to happen is nerfs to a select few top laners and supports.

Melees have never gotten nearly out of line as ranged champions have. This constitutes an evening of the gameboard across the board. There is not a single case where melees have the advantage against ranged champions unless you deliberately pick a weak ranged. After this, it would be easier to buff the individual ranged champions who are weak because of this, and nerf the individual melees who are too strong because of this.

We need to do this because Ranged champions are simply more effective than melees across the board. "But wait!" You say! "Tanks, bruisers and assassins have their own niche and you never see any ranged champion taking their place (lol Graves, Kindred, etc.)!"

But the truth is none of the ranged champions are given the kit of a bruiser or a tank. It is clear that if they were, we'd simply stop seeing melee bruisers, assassins, and tanks.

So then what is the advantage of going melee if in exchange for a little resists and like 5-10 AD you get to deal almost the same damage and the same CC from far away without risking your life as much? The area of control of a ranged is much larger than the area of control of a melee, many times over, in exchange for a negligible decrease AD (which has been mostly gotten rid of with the ADC reworks) and defense.

DrCyanideNov 2, 20162 votes

Melees have never gotten nearly out of line as ranged champions have.

Cinderhulk meta and Juggernaut update beg otherwise.

Pierce The VealNov 2, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Cinderhulk meta and Juggernaut update beg otherwise.

We didn't see any melee champions replacing marksmen then, now, did we? All we had were some melees doing better against other melees. No ranged champions were deseated from their thrones. Cinderhulk meta just meant that tanks that built straight up health could live 25% longer. And there was also nothing preventing ranged champions from building it. They just didn't build it because they didn't need it like several melees did.

Plus, the juggernaut update was a buff to ADC's more than melees. Building Maw and Sterak's and being unkillable while also being ranged? Balanced. Being melee and building both so you live just a little longer? Broken OP. Don't forget that ADC's were the ones who got sterak's nerfed, not melees.

DrCyanideNov 2, 20161 votes

We didn't see any melee champions replacing marksmen then, now, did we?

Actually, that was the closest we've been, since a lot of games Morde was picked instead of a marksmen.

Pierce The VealNov 2, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Actually, that was the closest we've been, since a lot of games Morde was picked instead of a marksmen.

That lasted less than a week before he was nerfed.

But yes, that is indeed we have ever historically ever been to a melee actually replacing an ADC. It required us to purposefully neglect the champion's identity, and utterly buff him to broken levels before he stood a chance.

Neko CaitlynNov 2, 20164 votes

These melee crying posts are getting more stupid each time.

Pierce The VealNov 2, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Neko Caitlyn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sKhwLjUp,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-11-02T02:50:38.414+0000)

These melee crying posts are getting more stupid each time.

I wonder if this opinion of yours has anything to do with you playing Caitlyn.

CalabokNov 2, 20163 votes

not gonna fly

Pierce The VealNov 2, 20161 votes

{quoted}

not gonna fly

I bet you doing the opposite would "fly" with everyone and Riot though. Because being up in your face is scarier than killing you with ease from far away.

DanjengNov 2, 20163 votes

Your suggestions would make melees incredibly overpowered, and they would be able to steamroll any squishies. It's the ebb and flow of the meta. Not too long ago there was the rise of a new melee class known as the juggernauts...

Pierce The VealNov 2, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Your suggestions would make melees incredibly overpowered, and they would be able to steamroll any squishies. It's the ebb and flow of the meta. Not too long ago there was the rise of a new melee class known as the juggernauts...

Would it really?

Are you seriously telling me 10% increased damage and taking 10% reduced damage against ranged champions would make melees overpowered? By the time a melee gets to a ranged champion they take at least 1 auto, if not 2-3 autos, or 2-3 spells (or even a whole rotation). That is by far much larger than 10% damage. Not to mention how much cc will land on them. My point is, if a ranged champion and a melee champion are both full build (rocking the same type of build), regardless of whether it is defensive or offensive the melee should win out by a bit.

At this point we have ranged champions dominating top, mid, bot, support, and even doing really well in jungle. It's because they basically do the same thing as melees but from far away. There are more advantages to playing ranged than there are disadvantages.

EcchiOtakuTMNov 4, 20161 votes

You severely underestimate 10% o.o

Pierce The VealNov 4, 20161 votes

Perhaps.

Even 5% is fine.

Just something to make it worth playing melee for the late game over ADC. Dealing a little more damage to ranged seems fair imo.

Irelia BotNov 2, 20161 votes

Can we make Doran's shield block 16 flat damage if the source of it is more then 200 unites away? Also reduce damage over time by a flat 4.

Pierce The VealNov 2, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sKhwLjUp,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-11-02T01:58:12.054+0000)

Can we make Doran's shield block 16 flat damage if the source of it is more then 200 unites away? Also reduce damage over time by a flat 4.

Thing is that's ridiculous. We're forced to buy an item to even go to lane with over half of the champions in the game.

CerealBoxOfDoomNov 2, 20161 votes

they already do if you take the masteries only melees scale well with for the most part

Pierce The VealNov 2, 20161 votes

{quoted}

they already do if you take the masteries only melees scale well with for the most part

? I can name four masteries that are better on melee than on range. But all four of which don't come close to evening even a tenth of the gap between ranged and melee.

CerealBoxOfDoomNov 2, 20161 votes

all they have to do is reduce something by 10%

Pierce The VealNov 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

all they have to do is reduce something by 10%

Would be nice. They won't do it.

CerealBoxOfDoomNov 3, 20161 votes

doesnt it already give 15% tenacity and slow resistance?

Pierce The VealNov 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

doesnt it already give 15% tenacity and slow resistance?

And if you go down that tree you get flat bonuses vs the 15+% bonus damage (AND FERVOR) that carries can get.

That's not gonna make up for it. Plus, if it was really that good, then carries would also go down that tree to get the same bonus. In short, melees don't have anything actually given to them.

CerealBoxOfDoomNov 3, 20161 votes

irrelevant, the goal was to reduce damage and cc by 10%

how are carries getting 15% damage?

Pierce The VealNov 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

irrelevant, the goal was to reduce damage and cc by 10%

how are carries getting 15% damage?

You can look at any of the mathing. Using the offensive and middle trees, it is entirely within the realm of possibility to get 10-15% increased damage, as all of them increase your damage exponentially. 1.5% here, 4% attack speed there, 5% against people under 40%, and many others added together give you significantly increased damage output.

With the added bonus of being able to proc deathfire touch, fervor, and thunderlords from far away (which I'm not even adding into my %, otherwise ranged would look too OP and you wouldn't believe me).

Dasdi96Nov 2, 20161 votes

With your proposed changes, zed will become even more oppessive in lane than he already is.

Pierce The VealNov 2, 20161 votes

{quoted}

With your proposed changes, zed will become even more oppessive in lane than he already is.

Nerf him to bring him in line then.

The remaining 95% of melees want a chance to actually play the game tyvm.

CatastropNov 3, 20161 votes

This has to be stupidest thing I've ever seen come out of the "Melees vs Ranged" arguements on the boards ever.

Pierce The VealNov 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

This has to be stupidest thing I've ever seen come out of the "Melees vs Ranged" arguements on the boards ever.

Right next to doran's shield blocking a little more damage, right?

There's no real compensation for playing melee, besides the fact that there are no real ranged champions with kits that reward going tanky. I assure you, the second such a kit comes out, it will dominate the gameplay in its role. Looks at Thresh support.

CatastropNov 3, 20161 votes

Doran's Shield blocking more damage is actually reasonable and needed, this is flat out stupid. The fact that you'd even try to compare the two is mind boggling beyond extremes.

Pierce The VealNov 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Doran's Shield blocking more damage is actually reasonable and needed, this is flat out stupid. The fact that you'd even try to compare the two is mind boggling beyond extremes.

What's even more mind boggling is that people think the difference in power in melee vs Ranged is something that can be made up for with a slight loss of base stats and a little more damage reduction on Doran's. Are you really telling me that Doran's ringe reducing 5 more damage and having +10 AD and +30 MR is worth as much as having +400-600 range?

Wind234Nov 3, 20161 votes

If this change were implemented into the game, then ranged characters would be completely and utterly useless in teamfights. Tanks would completely stonewall them, divers and assassins would literally be everywhere, and the game would become entirely reliant on your top laner and maybe your jungler, because they'd be the only ones doing full damage. Kalista only does 90% of her AD and look at the horrible spot she's in right now - nigh unplayable. The game could potentially, in the worst case scenario, enter a state where the only champions played are melee-ranged bruisers, divers and tanks - assassins would have no place in such a meta because they're designed to kill squishies, which would be irrelevant to the game at that point. You'd have to give mages and marksmen compensation for such a huge overall nerf to their viability, so if they can't deal damage, they should at least survive a little longer so they're not instantly blown up by a Wukong or an Irelia. Their items would have to be buffed up in order to compensate for the fact that carries can't carry anymore, which in turn would make bruisers, tanks, juggernauts and divers busted beyond busted because they can use those items too. Your idea would be a balancing nightmare. It would not just break a handful of champions, my good sir, it would break several entire CLASSES of champions - both in terms of being "OP" broken and being uselessly broken. Now are melees in the best spot right now? No, they aren't, and ranged champs do have the run of the place especially in top lane. But it would be FAR easier to simply nerf the champions that deserve it, instead of nerfing entire classes of champions just because a handful of them are a bit stronger at the moment. There's no real justifiable, logical reason for such an extreme change.

Pierce The VealNov 3, 20161 votes

What you're implying is that 400-600 extra range is equivalent to 10 extra AD and ~30 MR in bonus stats. There are even several melees with base stats that are lower than carries.

How anyone believes that that is a good tradeoff is beyond me.

Additionally, you mention kalista being weak. Yeah, sure, she is weak, compared to other ADC's. Of course her winrate will be lower than other ADC's. It also doesn't help that her passive breaks every 5 seconds while she is one of the most team dependent ADC's in the game.

And the thing is, we have nerfed individual champions who have deserved it, yet we have never seen ranged champions have popularity less than or equal to that of melees.

Wind234Nov 3, 20161 votes

I'm honestly not sure where the base stats came from...I didn't mention anything like that. I don't know how Riot decides base stats and why certain champions have lower ones than others. I'm actually a little unsure of how to reply because it feels like that came out of left field. Are you saying that you think melees don't have enough base stats to make up for the range that marksmen/mages have? If that's the case, then perhaps the answer is simply buffing up some base stats instead of overhauling the whole game. It could just be a problem that fixing a few numbers could solve. Mind you, melee classes (outside of Juggernauts, which are specifically supposed to have kiting as a weakness) haven't had their class update yet, while Marksman and Mages both have had theirs. It could simply be that the class update for divers and bruisers will fix all your issues.

But mind you, marksmen and mages do have some inherent weaknesses that melee champions can take advantage of. For example, most melee champions I know of have either A) a gap closer or B) hard crowd control to make up for their lack of range. In most cases, if a squishy gets hit by any of that, they're typically dead. In addition, most melee characters have either A) tankiness or B) some manner of protection in order to stop themselves from getting killed at range (examples of this include Tryndamere's ult, Fiora's Riposte and Yasuo's Wind Wall). Most mages and marksmen also lack mobility or an escape, so they're screwed if they get reached. That's a weakness that they can mitigate, but melees can also mitigate their own weaknesses too, either with items or powers in their kits. Again, some people do deserve buffs or nerfs (looking at you, Jayce), but that's a case-by-case basis. Some melees could use buffs, some ranged can use nerfs. But overturning how damage and CC works just to make melees more viable is not really a good answer.

So you want melee champions to be more popular than ranged champions, in general or just in top lane? Because I can understand wanting melees to have a place in the meta that isn't overshadowed, but I also don't want them literally everywhere because everything else is unplayable. I get that it's frustrating losing to a Jayce, Kennen, Quinn, hell even a Teemo in top lane, but it's perfectly possible to win those lanes with a melee champ. I've seen it before, I've been on the receiving end of it before, too. I still have PTSD flashbacks about getting my ass handed to me by a Darius as Gnar. AS GNAR. Before he got super-nerfed. If someone knows what they're doing with their champion, and knows what the enemy champion is capable of doing, then winning is completely possible. Breaking the game just so melees can dominate isn't the right way to do things, even if it's really tempting to dumpster some annoying champions. It shouldn't be about a popularity contest.

Pierce The VealNov 3, 20161 votes

I don't want melee champions to be more popular per se. I want them to have legitimite advantages to be picked.

My point is, not only do base stats between melee and ranged not differ enough to compensate for the range, we also need to take into account that ranged champions scale just as well as melees, despite their inherent advantage. This suggested change was to make it so that melees scale slightly better than ranged champions do. Little did I expect that people would consider this a stupid idea.

Wind234Nov 4, 20161 votes

I understand what you were trying to accomplish, but I do feel that this proposed change was a little too much. 10% extra damage against champions who are already inherently squishy means that they'd die insanely fast, and doing 10% LESS damage to enemies who are more than liking building tank items means that they're doing a lot less damage in return for their squishiness. That means that damage, armor and magic resist are automatically 10% less valuable to mages and marksmen. And giving their CC a 10% debuff while increasing the length of CC that they suffer in return would pretty much neuter their utility in comparison. Some mages would become completely unusuable because they rely on their CC so heavily, and some supports would become useless too because they wouldn't be able to do their jobs.

It's actually not so much a question of "would they be able to function." It'd be a matter of, "why would I pick a mage or a marksman and do less, when I can pick a bruiser or a tank and do the same job, but better?" I think that there plenty of reasons to pick certain melee champions. If my team is super squishy, I'd love seeing a Malphite or Maokai top instead of a Kennen, and if my team needs someone to pick off squishies, I'd happily welcome a diver like Jax, Irelia or Wukong over a Jayce (especially since Jayce falls off hard late game). Ranged champs in top are only a thing right now because A) we saw a lot of them at Worlds and B) some of them got overbuffed, they sincerely did. It also doesn't help that the ranged top-laners who I believe are problems right now - Jayce and Kennen - both have particularly strong early games. Hell, I play Kennen and even I think he might be slightly overtuned with Probobelt. All things pass eventually, and I'm sure preseason will bring with it plenty of changes that will shake things up a bit. I highly expect tanks and bruisers to make a return because they counter assassins and Lord knows we're going to be seeing a lot of those next patch.

So I get what you're saying, but an extreme change won't help. I'm sorry I don't really have anything else to offer other than "it'll get better soon," but unfortunately that's really all that I can say. I'm no balance expert and I wouldn't really know how to fairly nerf or buff certain champions. But I'm sure that the "ranged top" meta will die off soon enough. It always does, and then I think the Divers are the next update after the assassins, so that's a whole group of melee fighters getting their reworks, which will definitely put them on the map.

Pierce The VealNov 4, 20161 votes

I mean, it's always been worth picking a ranged over melee, except when you need a tank or bruiser because melees tend to be optimized to building tanky. But when we release champions like gnar and thresh, and look at old ryze, we quickly realize that ranged champions that can go tanky always outperform melees that can go tanky, there's just not enough of them to make that clear.