Whenever people bring up the hectic nature of toplane, Vayne is always mentioned

HateDaddy·Jul 3, 2019·18 votes·8,863 views

And yet I literally never see vayne top, and if I did I would welcome it with open arms. Being 100% serious, I’m 17-0 vs Vayne top in ranked (yes I’ve kept count since s2)! Want to know why? Because it screams “gank me” and even bad junglers will gank her because of how cocky of a pick it is. It’s free gold. And it also severely handicaps a team when they take Vayne top because it’s not useful unless she snowballs or gets to 50+ minutes when she has 6 items and her strengths overcome the lapse she puts on a team comp. what’s more is that she is NOT easy to play, so most people that play her anyway feed spectacularly.

Im fine with discussing how top lane sucks but let’s be real here: Vayne top is not a problem. It really never was. And it isnt really good. It’s a cheese pick and if I had to compare it to any cheese, i wouldn’t because it’s shit. It’s like cheese that never became cheese and some dog just ate it and shit it out. I am seriously at the point where I consider Vayne top troll, and you should too. It only takes a brain to beat her.

62 Comments

Critmaster GarenJul 3, 20197 votes

vayne isnt a generalist pick into top lane, but shes unbeatable for certain opponents as reflected by her pick rate which is still 3% and her winrate still close to 50% on top lane.

people bring her up to make a point of how counterpick oriented top lane is, and how many melee champions have too little tools to deal with a lot of ranged matchups.

be it Vayne or any of those when they were (are) picked in top lane

Karma Gnar Viktor Ryze Teemo

notice that im not saying that these champions have a mere lane advantage like Darius has against Garen but when they were are are picked, that they are cheese picks who completely shit on a lot of melees with no hope of ever coming out ahead in that lane no matter how well you play.

vayne might lose hard to champions like Riven Irelia Jax

(she has a 54% winrate against Renekton by the way, so mobile matchups dont automatically counter her either)

but she also completely obliterates Garen Ornn Yorick and similar champions to the point where they cant even lane. ive played against vayne, and even kills on her with a cs advantage due to jungle assistance didnt allow me to play against her without getting bullied out of lane, since her kit just countered mine so incredibly well.

HateDaddyJul 3, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sEM63Nii,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-07-03T23:28:20.551+0000)

vayne isnt a generalist pick into top lane, but shes unbeatable for certain opponents.

people bring her up to make a point of how counterpick oriented top lane is, and how many melee champions have too little tools to deal with a lot of ranged matchups.

be it or any of those when they were (are) picked in top lane

notice that im not saying that these champions have a mere advantage like has against but that they are cheese picks who completely shit on some melees with no hope of ever coming out ahead in that lane no matter how well you play.

Yes but unlike the rest of those, she has no service she brings to top. She’s barely played top and she doesn’t do well there either. She’s a horrible example that has no relevance in the discussion. It’s like complaining about how you hate pizza (I don’t know how you could) because Big Macs have special sauce. It’s not relevant at all. It’s just something people who hate vayne use to as an excuse to complain about it.

Critmaster GarenJul 3, 20196 votes

{quoted}

Yes but unlike the rest of those, she has no service she brings to top. She’s barely played top and she doesn’t do well there either. She’s a horrible example that has no relevance in the discussion. It’s like complaining about how you hate pizza (I don’t know how you could) because Big Macs have special sauce. It’s not relevant at all. It’s just something people who hate vayne use to as an excuse to complain about it.

didnt you understand the point i was trying to make?

of course shes barely played top. because shes only picked into very few specific matchups. naturally that makes for a very low play rate. but she can still be safely picked into specific matchups any time.

the matchups she can be picked into she counters so hard, that they have practically no chance to play the game.

many of the top lane matchups look like this today.

tank karma is only picked because it completely shits on a lot of melee champions. same for tank viktor when it was played. same for why teemo, tahm kench and ryze are picked when theyre played top.

not because of the strategic advantage they bring to their team but how impossible they are for specific champions to deal with.

remember when old lane Nunu was picked just to make his opponent useless? thats what a lot of those picks do, except that they dont neccessarily fall off. a lategame vayne is still a lategame vayne.

HateDaddyJul 3, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sEM63Nii,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2019-07-03T23:40:19.671+0000)

didnt you understand the point i was trying to make?

of course shes barely played top. because shes only picked into very few specific matchups. naturally that makes for a very low play rate.

but the matchups she can be picked into she counters so hard, that they have practically no chance to play the game.

many of the top lane matchups look like this today.

tank karma is only picked because it completely shits on a lot of melee champions. same for tank viktor when it was played. same for why teemo and ryze are picked when theyre played top.

not because of the advantage they bring to their team but how impossible they are for specific champions to deal with.

remember when old lane was picked just to make his opponent useless? thats what a lot of those picks do, except that they dont neccessarily fall off. a lategame vayne is still a lategame vayne.

The difference between those picks and vayne is that those other picks still bring something else to the table other than just beating melee champions. Old Nunu still was a super tank and great for objectives and has utility. Tank Karma has utility, and even decent poke. Top vayne? Literally nothing, it HAS to snowball to be effective or get to the very late stages of the game where her damage outpaces the handicap she brings to her team because all she offers is damage and nothing more. She is not a functional top laner and complaining about whatever winrates she has is worthless because the sample size is tiny. She is cheese, and there are other champions that do what she does in top but better and bring more to the table. I admit she’s frustrating in the sense that if she’s used to counterpick you, you don’t get to do anything. But as long as you get ganks or don’t feed, your team comp will be so substantially better that she doesn’t matter.

I see your point, it’s just not really a good one.

EedatJul 4, 20192 votes

What?

2% pick rate with 50% win rate means she's only used as a very successful counterpick?

DuskDaUmbreonJul 3, 20195 votes

Yeah...Even back when Vayne was actually busted her toplane winrate was still sub-50, iirc.

It's hilarious how people complain about it. Especially when most people complaining about Vayne top are Darius mains.

Luther King Jr VJul 4, 20194 votes

what's wrong with maining darius vayne and quinn are extremely annoying to deal with as any melee top laner without dashes, maybe play the match up urself then judge

DuskDaUmbreonJul 4, 20192 votes

Because it's mains of one of the most oppressive champions in the entirety of League complaining about a counterpick.

Darius can't do anything to them? Oh no, a Darius has to feel the exact same thing that they've been inflicting on every immobile melee to date! Excuse me while I attempt to dredge up even a mimicry of sympathy.

Any main of any lane bully complaining about being out-bullied is always hilarious.

Luther King Jr VJul 4, 20191 votes

counterpick meaning having an edge over ur enemies not completely zoning them and abusing them non stop this is abusive pick not "counterpick"

also darius is shit without experience stop thinking that a noob can pick him and auto win lane :)

DuskDaUmbreonJul 4, 20191 votes

...A hard counter is still a counterpick.

Luther King Jr VJul 4, 20191 votes

the thing is vayne is not meant to be a toplaner she's not a pick at all counter or not shes only picked because she can be abusive to melee champs and people know that and you are pretending shes a legitimate pick and can be called a counterpick lol

DuskDaUmbreonJul 4, 20191 votes

So what makes this functionally any different from any other niche counterpick in the game? Because that's literally what Vayne top is. Vayne top is a niche counter to a few very particular champions, passable against a few more, and troll-tier against the majority. What lane Vayne was intended to go to is completely irrelevant to the fact that she's a niche counterpick when used toplane.

A champion can be troll-tier in a lane and still be a strong counter against a couple of champions there. Any good-faith pick is a legitimate pick, regardless of the lane the champion was designed for. Vi was designed as a toplaner, so does that mean that picking her as a jungler is invalid?

And she's really only abusive to a few melee tops - Specifically those who have no way to engage from a distance or easily run her down, which isn't a huge number of champions. Compare that to Darius, who abuses pretty much every immobile melee and a good number of semi-mobile ones.

It's not even that Darius is OP, it's just fucking hilarious to see Darius mains complain about someone doing to them what they've historically done to most of toplane.

Luther King Jr VJul 4, 20191 votes

sorry it's past my bed time to argue on boards

(and darius isn't that bad 1v1 hes like one of the shittiest juggernauts are u saying juggernauts are lane bullies ? duh it's not a darius thing but he feels like one of the less powerful juggernauts and i don't understand how is he a "lane bully" unless u pick a squishy into him then it's the same darius vs vayne "argument" u kind of counterpicked urself and no hes by no stretch THAT opressive in top lane if at all)

DuskDaUmbreonJul 4, 20191 votes

"I don't understand how he's a lane bully"

Well maybe it has something to do with the fact that he wins lane against pretty much every toplaner that isn't highly mobile or ranged. Which, as surprising as it might be, most toplaners are not.

Luther King Jr VJul 4, 20191 votes

hes the worst juggerrnaut in the game out if early cheese really weak defensive stats and most damage come from passive, one good gank early will make him useless for the rest of the game against a competent laner but he's a "LaNe BuLlY"

brb downvoting everything u said so far

DuskDaUmbreonJul 5, 20191 votes

"The worst juggernaut" when multiple sites are ranking him as at or near top-tier?

MalignMetalJul 4, 20191 votes

Riots official stance is they don't want Hard counters.

Daddy AntsJul 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Riots official stance is they don't want Hard counters.

Then by that logic Draven Caitlyn need some pretty hard changes then.

They hard counter a lot of the bot lane roster when strong.

DuskDaUmbreonJul 4, 20191 votes

Regardless of whether or not Riot wants hard counters to exist (Personally I agree they shouldn't exist except in very niche circumstances that are too unlikely to happen to be worth balancing around), that doesn't change the fact that Vayne is a niche counter to a few toplaners.

And from what I've recently heard she's not even a hard counter. Running Ghost on Darius supposedly fucks Vayne up hard. Not that I'd personally know since I play neither and especially have never been in the matchup, but that's what I've heard from people who ~~are good~~ aren't too bad at League.

EedatJul 4, 20193 votes

So using your logic Darius is bullshit because he beats my Wukong with no effort and there is absolutely nothing I can do about it without Darius royally fucking up?

Oh, I get it. When you have a matchup against a champ thats completely free its fine. When someone has one against you it's complete bullshit

D357R0Y3RJul 3, 20194 votes

vayne top was always a meme

people complaining about vayne top are the same people complaining about full ad sion

HateDaddyJul 3, 20192 votes

{quoted}

vayne top was always a meme

people complaining about vayne top are the same people complaining about full ad sion

The only people that lose to it are people that don’t respect it. If you’re weak against her, wait for jungler and eat her alive. If you’re not weak against her, problem solved. She’s bad in 2v2s, she’s bad in a bunch of 1v1s early on, and if she is strong against you then wait for your jungler. They will come, because everyone wants to gank vayne.

D357R0Y3RJul 3, 20192 votes

like yea you're right

but let me share a story to you hatedaddy

once, In a normal game, my toplaner picked ORNN into vayne toplane, we knew it was vayne toplane because they had vayne and caitlyn it was during the vayne meta before her nerf + rageblade nerf

he picked ornn, and I told him before to pick Akali Jax Irelia who were all broken during that time

and instead of picking akali or irelia, he went ahead and picked a tank into vayne.

this is why people complain about vayne toplane.

HateDaddyJul 3, 20193 votes

{quoted}

like yea you're right

but let me share a story to you hatedaddy

once, In a normal game, my toplaner picked ORNN into vayne toplane, we knew it was vayne toplane because they had vayne and caitlyn it was during the vayne meta before her nerf + rageblade nerf

he picked ornn, and I told him before that to pick who were all broken during that time

and instead of picking akali or irelia, he went ahead and picked a tank into vayne.

this is why people complain about vayne toplane.

You’re right, but what’s more is ornn can easily set up ganks against the vayne. Even if Vaynes jungler comes, it’ll be easy because you and your jungler just hyper focus vayne and gib her. She’s so atrocious early in 2v2s it’s not even funny.

Critmaster GarenJul 3, 20197 votes

{quoted}

You’re right, but what’s more is ornn can easily set up ganks against the vayne. Even if Vaynes jungler comes, it’ll be easy because you and your jungler just hyper focus vayne and gib her. She’s so atrocious early in 2v2s it’s not even funny.

and then the jungler leaves, and even with a massive gold lead ornn still cant beat her and still gets bullied around by her, because her kit has no counterplay for him in a 1v1 scenario.

i have been in that situation before.

whats he going to do? build defensive stats? her w doesnt have gold scaling, so shes not really put behind in damage against him.

there are no items that you can build against direct target displacements either, so he still cant make a play on her without the vayne just disengaging and then turning around on him.

her kit just counters his so perfectly, that gold difference doesnt even matter.

HateDaddyJul 3, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sEM63Nii,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-03T23:48:44.384+0000)

and then the jungler leaves, and even with a massive gold lead ornn still cant beat her and still gets bullied around by her, because her kit has no counterplay for him in a 1v1 scenario.

Or just go group with your team and win because you have 5 champions and for the next 30 minutes, they have 4. Adaptability is a wonderful thing.

Critmaster GarenJul 3, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Or just go group with your team and win because you have 5 champions and for the next 30 minutes, they have 4. Adaptability is a wonderful thing.

roaming this season carries a lot more risk, since it leaves your opponent free to take turret plates. which is part of the reason why i suspect tanks arent doing so well in top lane anymore.

in previous seasons when they were up against any matchup that they cant beat, they stopped focusing on their own lane, and even sacrificed cs and their turret to roam and snowball other lanes.

tanks dont need that much gold to be useful to their team. their kits are baseline effective through their utility, and why theyre picked so heavily in pro play compared to solo que.

its 800 gold off those plates alone, and suddenly the vayne has 2 items and isnt so useless anymore. with all the ambient gold from turret plates and turret first blood, it doesnt take 20 or 30 minutes anymore to scale. it can take 15.

VerxintJul 4, 20191 votes

You build bramble and tabi and leverage your midgame tankiness before her damage really scales to set up ganks and teamfights while Vayne still has to farm to be a threat to you outside 1v1.

Your problem is that you think you have to 1v1 the Vayne to win the game.

Critmaster GarenJul 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You build bramble and tabi and leverage your midgame tankiness before her damage really scales to set up ganks and teamfights while Vayne still has to farm to be a threat to you outside 1v1.

Your problem is that you think you have to 1v1 the Vayne to win the game.

from what i experienced, her damage doesnt need time to scale. her w just chunks you out over and over.

she only has to put a few points into it to make your life hell.

i think this is another problem with vaynes kit. her w doesnt need items to scale into a serious threat for tanks and juggers. sure attack speed scales it up, but when it just comes to poke in lane, she just needs to keep sneaking single procs in which is easy with the reset on her q.

like on top of providing no counterplay, it doesnt start off at a low % and scales with bonus ad like Fiora passive does, so you cant actually shut her down. all she needs is a few levels to make it threatening.

NyarlathοtepJul 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

like yea you're right

but let me share a story to you hatedaddy

once, In a normal game, my toplaner picked ORNN into vayne toplane, we knew it was vayne toplane because they had vayne and caitlyn it was during the vayne meta before her nerf + rageblade nerf

he picked ornn, and I told him before to pick who were all broken during that time

and instead of picking akali or irelia, he went ahead and picked a tank into vayne.

this is why people complain about vayne toplane.

Maybe he doesnt want to play these champs? I mean shit, whats the point of playing a game to enjoy if you are forced to pick certain champs?

D357R0Y3RJul 4, 20191 votes

what's the point of playing this game if we don't have counters, and people just pick the most broken shit in the game braindeadly everytime to win?

I wonder

If you have more fun playing ornn against vayne, than akali/irelia against vayne, then I give up

NyarlathοtepJul 4, 2019

{quoted}

what's the point of playing this game if we don't have counters, and people just pick the most broken shit in the game braindeadly everytime to win?

I wonder

If you have more fun playing ornn against vayne, than akali/irelia against vayne, then I give up

There is a difference between counter and an impossible pick.

And yeah i actually enjoy picks like ornn. I dont like mobile champs.

D357R0Y3RJul 4, 20191 votes

There is a difference between counter and an impossible pick.

according to who? A counter is a counter, full stop if you get countered you deserve to lose ESPECIALLY IF YOU PICK INTO YOUR OWN COUNTER

if you see vayne top in the enemy team, and pick ornn you deserve to lose the game, knowing how to draft is part of the game

league players refusing to draft will always makes me laugh

NyarlathοtepJul 4, 2019

{quoted}

according to who? A counter is a counter, full stop if you get countered you deserve to lose ESPECIALLY IF YOU PICK INTO YOUR OWN COUNTER

if you see vayne top in the enemy team, and pick ornn you deserve to lose the game, knowing how to draft is part of the game

league players refusing to draft will always makes me laugh

Yeah totally my fault that i dont want to pick a champ that im unfamiliar with. And DONT YOU DARE say "learn them" because i dont know about you but i dont want to spent 40 hrs+ of gameplay with champs that i dont want to play with just to be able to alternate between them and my intended pick. You are free to do so but dont push it to others.

D357R0Y3RJul 4, 20192 votes

it is

if you refuse to understanding that drafting is part of the game just don't play league

NyarlathοtepJul 4, 2019

{quoted}

it is

if you refuse to understanding that drafting is part of the game just don't play league

I mean i dont disagree but it shouldnt be so game changing/one sided. Especially ones like vayne. I dont mind the counter that yasuo has vs skillshot based champs. But unavoidable stuff like vayne's whole kit? That shit is just unfair at this point. Ornn vs vayne is just so damn stupid. Ornn cant farm without taking true damage. Ornn cant engage (or set up a gank for his jungler without burning ulti) because vayne can just e him during his dash. By the end of the laning phase he wont be able to survive long enough to even ram his ulti to do something for his team.

HateDaddyJul 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I mean i dont disagree but it shouldnt be so game changing/one sided. Especially ones like vayne. I dont mind the counter that yasuo has vs skillshot based champs. But unavoidable stuff like vayne's whole kit? That shit is just unfair at this point. Ornn vs vayne is just so damn stupid. Ornn cant farm without taking true damage. Ornn cant engage (or set up a gank for his jungler without burning ulti) because vayne can just e him during his dash. By the end of the laning phase he wont be able to survive long enough to even ram his ulti to do something for his team.

Okay there’s so much wrong here:

why should ornn be able to engage on and stick to vayne without ult? That is an absurd suggestion itself.
you’re ignoring the fact that vayne top is a cheese pick and if you simply don’t feed her, you’ll likely win the game unless you feed or your team feeds, but neither of these have anything to do with vayne. Vayne top removes utility, durability, engage, waveclear and aoe damage from their team comp just so she can 1v1 you. This gimps her team comp so hard because at least 2 of the things I mentioned will be provided by a standard top laner. So someone picked Vayne to counter you as ornn? I can think of several counters that would be ten times better, like Vladimir for example. Do you think vlad should be removed from the game?

It’s like I said in the beginning: it’s not a good pick. It is cheese. Is cheese annoying? Yes. But some guy just mentioned 2% pickrate 50% winrate for a champion used IN COUNTER SITUATIONS. That is a laughably abysmal performance which tells you something: it’s a terrible pick. People complaining about it shouldn’t be taken seriously at all.

Luther King Jr VJul 3, 20197 votes

"everyone wants to gank vayne" is the real meme here must have seen the junglers in my games they never ganked

XavanicJul 4, 20192 votes

{quoted}

The only people that lose to it are people that don’t respect it. If you’re weak against her, wait for jungler and eat her alive. If you’re not weak against her, problem solved. She’s bad in 2v2s, she’s bad in a bunch of 1v1s early on, and if she is strong against you then wait for your jungler. They will come, because everyone wants to gank vayne.

Problem is, it makes me beyond pissed off having to give up my entire laning phase because some prick played vayne top, additionally, outside of maybe mundo, yasuo, and teemo she wins a lot more match-ups by default then you realize

FiveAneurysmsJul 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The only people that lose to it are people that don’t respect it. If you’re weak against her, wait for jungler and eat her alive. If you’re not weak against her, problem solved. She’s bad in 2v2s, she’s bad in a bunch of 1v1s early on, and if she is strong against you then wait for your jungler. They will come, because everyone wants to gank vayne.

What happens if your jg doesnt gank though?

Brown Man DariusJul 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The only people that lose to it are people that don’t respect it. If you’re weak against her, wait for jungler and eat her alive. If you’re not weak against her, problem solved. She’s bad in 2v2s, she’s bad in a bunch of 1v1s early on, and if she is strong against you then wait for your jungler. They will come, because everyone wants to gank vayne.

And what? Vayne TOP is balanced because the only way to beat her is with your jungler? And what if i dont have a jungler? (Which i usually dont) Am'i forced to Duo Q with a jungle main that will gank my lane? And no not everyone wants to gank vayne when she is top cause No one comes top anyways..... [slayer-jinx-unamused]

Hayaishi2Jul 3, 20194 votes

Everytime i go auto fill top (like once a month) i always go against vayne top. And yes it is as cancerous as they say.

EedatJul 4, 20191 votes

No you don't. I actually queue top/jung and havent seen one in months. But magically the once a month top player gets one every time. Yup I'm sure you're telling the truth

boricCentaur1Jul 3, 20193 votes

What do you mean VAYNE TOP IS OP that's why no one plays it.

HateDaddyJul 3, 20192 votes

{quoted}

What do you mean VAYNE TOP IS OP that's why no one plays it.

People complain about it because they just hate the champion, they wouldn’t care where she goes. Remember that meme with the kid riding the bike and then putting a stick through the spokes and tripping himself? Yeah, that’s what vayne haters to, and they’ll just go “damn vayne top.” It’s not good. It’s never been good.

Meteora707Jul 4, 20194 votes

eh people complain about it because its one of the "I need a jungler or I lose" matchups, these shouldn't be in the game in the first place.

LordXailinJul 4, 20193 votes

Your entire post is kind of dumb because it completely revolves around your jungler ganking. Most the time you get jungles that tunnel and only care about there camps. I cant tell you how many times I have had a jungler top side and they decide to go do there krugs rather then catching a wave getting the gold, and exp from it, and stopping my laner from getting damage on the tower. In a simple 1v1 with no jungle assistance vayne is pretty much unkillable to any top laner. You dash at her she tumbles away, if you double dash as renekton she knocks you back there is not opening ever while she gets free poke. If the only way you have a chance of doing anything is having your jungler come even when you are even with the person then there is no counter play to it, and as for the hectic nature of top lane is because top laners get fucked. We can never really play what we want. In high games we are forced pretty much into playing tanks as Brawlers have been fucked for the longest time. You play a brawler and you end up getting counter picked by ryze top, Neeko top, Teemo top, Lissanda top, quinn top..While bot lane only has to worry about maybe the occasional artillary mage going support, or mid sometimes riven, or irelia is pretty standard for that lane bot is a support/Damage mage and a adc, Top is either going to be a machine gun mage, a artillary mage, or a assassin while top we have ever single class of character come top, making it so if your a top laner you have to learn more match ups then any other lane, as well as having the easiest lane to counter pick since so many champs are made to counter brawlers again locking you into if your blind picking have to go for a tank, and just front lining pretty much taking away your choice of what to play since if you do decide to blind pick a brawler you will get countered so easily and become useless. Its the hardest lane to balance because riot keeps giving champs to much to counter brawlers, and fighters, and giving them nothing to fight back against it.

Sir SaltarinJul 3, 20192 votes

Crossbow woman bad

VerxintJul 4, 20192 votes

It's annoying but I'll take a Vayne top over Kennen or Jayce anyway.

FSRERJul 4, 20192 votes

Junglers will gank her? Most people will feed spectacularly? Idk if that happens in NA but I assure you, at eune platinum, 1. Jungler don't gank toplane even if they see a teemo under your tower and 2. if you ever encounter a vayne toplane, she will be about 300k mastery points and will obliterate you if you aren't playing a duelist.