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Can we address the elephant in the room with the crossbow?

Ser Garland·Jun 20, 2015·51 votes·4,373 views

Ive seen a lot of complaint threads about a lot of champions: FoTM champions, niche unpopular champions, Zed. But I almost never see a complaint thread about Vayne.

Ive seen this chick in all levels of play. She is -the- snowball late game hyper carry Adc. That is her identity, that she is simply the best DPS ranged champion in the game. Even in an age of massive brutes she gets by with her health shred per three autos, and for everyone else, they can be dead before her third bolt hits them.

Her weakness is a weak early game, but her kit knows this. In fact her entire kit is a massive safety net of self peel and mobility to make sure she keeps dealing out her auto attack based damage. It's really easy for a vayne to play safe with a lane partner and farm to the late game; where she can start going ham on everyone imaginable.

She has around the same range as Quinn; another "hyper carry" with self peel. But Quinn has so many more margins of error than Vayne, and her rewards are not much different. I play a lot of Quinn, and aside from a few bug fixes, I think her design's pretty balanced.

Vayne on the other hand, is so ridiculously streamlined for her role. You'd think an ADC with a blind, specifically built to deal with auto based champions would naturally destroy Vayne, you'd be mistaken.

Vayne's kit is so flexible she can tumble out of a Jarvan ult. She can out maneuver a caitlyn.

She's a lot like Riven, she has the tools to deal with everything, but also bring a lot of damage to the table. It doesn't help that you buffed Blade of the Ruined King yet again.

Choose one thing Riot: Is she a jack of all trades or is she a burst/dps powerhouse?

She's like a squishier mobile nasus ffs.

Give her the Tristana treatment

155 Comments

WickedfatesJun 20, 201529 votes

honestly i think you might be bringing up a great point or not... but i just cant get past your amazing title.... i do really <3 it....

elephant in the room with the crossbow

yup.... this was both witty and amusing.... ty for this, if nothing else... and since i know little about vayne i wont comment about the details... but damn i love your title.... really

InsaneSamuraiJun 20, 201518 votes

Vayne is one of the Riot protected. Good luck on her ever getting nerfed.

She exemplifies the worst thing about this entire game.

Man I wish I could upvote this more, cause the Vayne players are gonna try and ninja this post into oblivion.

Solari FortuneJun 20, 201510 votes

The main thing I hate about Vayne is her %health True Damage, True Damage ignores resistances so the way to counter it is to build health. Vayne says screw that idea you'll just die faster

IcyPepperJun 20, 20157 votes

building armor against Vayne isn't a terrible idea (most of her damage is physical until she hits her late-game), and item 3075 seems to be an excellent counter against her.

Ser GarlandJun 20, 20155 votes

Seems to be. But Vayne will still have it easier than most ADCs against thorn mail, despite her identity as an auto attack marksman

IcyPepperJun 20, 20154 votes

shrugs

I got nothing then.

windwolf777Jun 21, 20152 votes

You don't build armor vs Vayne. Instead you build item 3143 item 3110 . The attack slow items. Yes they give armor, but you don't care about that. You get them for the IAS slows. And this is just my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.

Quite a few ADC have better AA range than her, and/or ways to get away. Here are a list of the champs that I'm calling adcs. Your list might be different but whatever (like Corki or TwistedFate are normally played mid however I have seen them bottom so I'm going to include them:

So Vayne range is 550

500: Lucian Sivir KogMaw (without B.-A.B. active) (however they all have poke available that's >550) 525: Graves Jinx (pow pow), TwistedFate (but better poke than her), 550: Draven Kalista Ezreal (if played ad), Tristana (at level 1), Twitch without ult, MissFortune , Corki 575: Varus 650: Caitlyn And anything higher is a champ already listed with an AA modifier but those curious they are 669: at level 18 with passive 700: Jinx max fishbones with it active 710: KogMaw level 5 barrage active 850: Twitch ult active

Or hell, those were just listing the ADC's. You can also just take general tips. item 3364 to counter the stealth (which supports generally carry after they complete item 2049 , she's also pretty squishy meaning if you can get in on her kill her. Zed is normally able to get to the back lines and assassinate somebody ~~(however this is what people complain about him as well so..),~~ (The complaint is about his safety. My mistake) Ekko see zed's crossed out arguement, Leblanc see Ekko, Blitzcrank Vayne, meet my grab. Now meet my team, Urgot able to ult her and bring her into his team or at least waste her ult. LeeSin almost like Blitz but without as much safety.

And these are just the LCS champs. Expanding farther than that would give us access to things like Shaco , MasterYi , Rengar , , and others.

SpecterVonBarenJun 21, 20156 votes

Something I think people don't talk about enough (Probably because there's no real visual indication for it) is Vayne's passive, she gets an entire boot worth of movement speed as well as having her low cooldown q. Vayne's aa range doesn't mean nearly as much as some people make it out to be.

All it means is that if she's behind her enemy in items or levels then she's a little easier to zone, but if Vayne wants to kill something, unless this something has a turret nearby, she's usually going to catch it and kill it.

Duke AnaxJun 21, 20152 votes

Slight correction here: it is not getting intio the backline to kill that people complain about Zed after all that's his job. it's the abbility to easily get out of the backline that people complain about and that was recently nerfed.

RaptameiJun 21, 20154 votes

{quoted}

The main thing I hate about Vayne is her %health True Damage, True Damage ignores resistances so the way to counter it is to build health. Vayne says screw that idea you'll just die faster

The way to counter silver bolts is not "buying stuff until it goes away" but "not getting hit 3 times in a row". I wish more people would understand that just because you can't counterbuild something, that doesn't mean it's uncounterable.

RIP Tahm KenchJun 21, 20151 votes

Ok then:

If you walk away while in lane after the first auto she will just Q>AA>E for quick damage, and then you've done no damage to her in return.

Post 6 waking away is no longer an option thanks to her 90+ move speed on her ult when chasing, the boost even means that short range escapes like flash aren't even very effective.

When vayne is against the right opponents her ult is essentially the Duel ability from Dota 2, just without the silence.

Ariel the CruelJun 21, 20152 votes

Vayne is a duelist. She expected to win a standard 1v1, that's what her kit revolves around. If forced to juggle multiple threats (say... your support?) she starts falling apart. In spite of all her steroids, she doesn't have a lot of burst. She also doesn't have a lot of range, which makes peeling her and grouping up on her a lot easier. She's not an assassin, as opposed to Quinn (mentioned in OP); who, unless condemned on approach, will 100-0 Vayne instantly.

The 3 times in a row thing also applies to Vel'Koz. And his skills are set up that he can proc 5 hits instantly if he lands his knock-up. But you don't hear people complain about the squid because it can be worked around. Vayne is better at applying her bolts, but it's also easier for her to loose them.

NemeBroJun 21, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s833G0Ex,comment-id=0004000100000000,timestamp=2015-06-21T17:55:32.181+0000)

Vayne is a duelist. She expected to win a standard 1v1, that's what her kit revolves around. If forced to juggle multiple threats (say... your support?) she starts falling apart. In spite of all her steroids, she doesn't have a lot of burst. She also doesn't have a lot of range, which makes peeling her and grouping up on her a lot easier. She's not an assassin, as opposed to Quinn (mentioned in OP); who, unless condemned on approach, will 100-0 Vayne instantly.

The 3 times in a row thing also applies to Vel'Koz. And his skills are set up that he can proc 5 hits instantly if he lands his knock-up. But you don't hear people complain about the squid because it can be worked around. Vayne is better at applying her bolts, but it's also easier for her to loose them.

So what you're saying is that she is a better and ranged version of champions like Yi, Tryndamere, and Jax? Because these champions are also duelist champions expected to win 1v1s against nearly every other opponent. If Vayne is better than them, while also being ranged, having better peel, and outputting far more damage in team fights due to the fact that she is still an ADC, you don't think there's a problem? It might not even be Vayne specifically. The problem would probably lie with the ADC class as a whole.

I mean, I've never personally had any real trouble dueling Vayne as a bruiser like Tryndamere (I usually eat them alive in fact), but I am saying that from my point of view, ADCs should never be allowed to outshine champions who specialize in dueling as a duelist. Which Vayne might not, but if she can legitimately 1v1 Master Yi, Tryndamere, or Jax that's frankly bullshit.

edit: Oh, and Vayne has the highest pick rate of any ADC in the game in Plat, Diamond, and Master+. She's seen in higher levels of play often. She also has the third highest win rate of any ADC. The notion that she is "bad" doesn't hold up.

Ariel the CruelJun 21, 20152 votes

The problem would probably lie with the ADC class as a whole.

With this, I agree. But riot like them, so they here to stay. Personally, I think they should add an additional damage stat: siege damage. Damage done to structures. That way the primer objective taking class wouldn't be required to also have the highest damage output in the game.

The notion that she is "bad" doesn't hold up.

Please don't put words in my mouth. It tastes terrible and I don't know where they've been. I've never said she was bad. At higher elo, people are better at playing as a team and exploiting her weaknesses.

Ariel the CruelJun 20, 20158 votes

Vayne Complaint threads are pretty common. Most of them are focused around her % max health true damage.
Quinn Counters the hell out of Vayne. As long as Quinn doesn't position herself to allow a condemn stun.

OmiwomJun 21, 20158 votes

You're stretching the truth because you just lost to Vayne three times in a row. She's is by no means a jack of all trades. Where is this coming from? You also hate her because you play a lot of tank/bruisers, the very class she is meant to shred through.

What Vayne's kit has is the self peel to duel one or two opponents effectively, and the damage to be a hyper carry. She can't poke, she's not a caster, she can't burst, she can't hop over walls, she's not safe like so many other problematic assassins, etc

I also noticed you didn't build a frozen heart in any of those three games. Try overwhelming her by having your frontline stick to her. She can only handle one-two enemies at a time.

Ser GarlandJun 21, 20152 votes

And she shits on everyone. It's not just bruisers. She can out duel anyone. Casters fear her, Marksmen can't compare to her in a one on one fight.

Bruisers are the natural predators of ADCs so the idea that an ADC can do all the above, and shrug off Tanks and bruisers as well doesn't make that her "specialty" it means she has no weakness, that enough dedication to mastering Vayne means you can take on anyone.

And aside from those games you described where I played adc and Zyra mid, Why pray tell would I buy Frozen Heart on Garen? Why should I tamper with my core builds that have done just dandy against most adcs, but somehow Vayne ignores. I've built Thornmail specifically for Vayne and it still doesn't seem to bother her thanks to her true damage.

"She can only handle one or two enemies at a time."

She should only be able to handle one enemy at a time. Instead what happens is she can pick apart two people at once, and then go for the remaining three when she's done with them. This is what a great vayne player is capable of, which is why her skill cap needs to be lowered.

Loken StoneheartJun 21, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ser Garland,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s833G0Ex,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2015-06-21T05:18:11.533+0000)

And she shits on everyone. It's not just bruisers. She can out duel anyone. Casters fear her, Marksmen can't compare to her in a one on one fight.

Bruisers are the natural predators of ADCs so the idea that an ADC can do all the above, and shrug off Tanks and bruisers as well doesn't make that her "specialty" it means she has no weakness, that enough dedication to mastering Vayne means you can take on anyone.

And aside from those games you described where I played adc and Zyra mid, Why pray tell would I buy Frozen Heart on Garen? Why should I tamper with my core builds that have done just dandy against most adcs, but somehow Vayne ignores. I've built Thornmail specifically for Vayne and it still doesn't seem to bother her thanks to her true damage.

"She can only handle one or two enemies at a time."

She should only be able to handle one enemy at a time. Instead what happens is she can pick apart two people at once, and then go for the remaining three when she's done with them. This is what a great vayne player is capable of, which is why her skill cap needs to be lowered.

Bruisers are the natural enemies of CASTERS.

Marksman > Bruiser/Tank > Caster/Assassin > Marksman

And you build a different holy fucking build because BUILDS ARE MEANT TO BE SITUATIONAL. Are you seriously bitching that you can't go your typical cookiecutter build? That is what pissed you off.

Jesus. If something counters her, you dont want to build it just because its different? Are you actually that stubborn and that much of a sheep?

BluePolarizerJun 21, 20153 votes

Most bruisers destroy marksmen in a 1v1. Irelia Fiora Hecarim Jax MasterYi Rengar Riven Pantheon . Their combination of high sustained damage and high sustain/tankiness mean that ADCs die in a few hits but they can tank quite a few ADC autos. Its only when bruisers get locked down by supports/mages that they get shredded by ADCs, while assassins are better at flanking.

Vayne counters all that.

She destroys bruisers because they can't stick to her and she ignores resistances. She destroys most AD assassins because they are melee, have delayed burst or rely on stickiness. She destroys mages because they need to hit skillshots and to kite, which is extremely hard against Vayne's mobility and chase passive.

The only champs that can beat Vayne are AP assassins that land their skills point-blank.

Baseball3bJun 21, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Loken Stoneheart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s833G0Ex,comment-id=000c00000000,timestamp=2015-06-21T05:36:21.512+0000)

Bruisers are the natural enemies of CASTERS.

Marksman > Bruiser/Tank > Caster/Assassin > Marksman

And you build a different holy fucking build because BUILDS ARE MEANT TO BE SITUATIONAL. Are you seriously bitching that you can't go your typical cookiecutter build? That is what pissed you off.

Jesus. If something counters her, you dont want to build it just because its different? Are you actually that stubborn and that much of a sheep?

This this this. Vayne is my main adc and the biggest things that screw me over are 1) item 3110 and item 3143 and 2) any form of CC whatsoever. Mobafire builds are fine as a guide, but builds in general are meant to be tailored to the enemy team's champions. If you're not doing that, then yeah, you're going to get wrecked by Vayne and the like. Then again I'm just a Silver scrub, what do I know?

BaunjoJun 21, 20154 votes

{quoted}

You're stretching the truth because you just lost to Vayne three times in a row. She's is by no means a jack of all trades. Where is this coming from? You also hate her because you play a lot of tank/bruisers, the very class she is meant to shred through.

What Vayne's kit has is the self peel to duel one or two opponents effectively, and the damage to be a hyper carry. She can't poke, she's not a caster, she can't burst, she can't hop over walls, she's not safe like so many other problematic assassins, etc

I also noticed you didn't build a frozen heart in any of those three games. Try overwhelming her by having your frontline stick to her. She can only handle one-two enemies at a time.

JESUS CHRIST YES

LaceUp23Jun 20, 20156 votes

Well, you aren't on much if you haven't seen a Vayne complaint thread. I think she is fine. Sure, she has a hella strong late game IF no1 locks her down. But, her early game is weak, she has very small aa range, and she has no poke. You can easily bully a Vayne into tower and watch her miss cs. It isn't that hard to shut her down early, hence why she isn't an LCS pick. They will actually take time to shut her down and then she is a bum. Also, I don't think Vayne can tumble out of a J4 ult. Let's not make up lies to try and back your point.

Ser GarlandJun 20, 20156 votes

Bullying botlane into their tower is like a death sentence. Their jungler only needs to gank once, get Vayne snowballing, and then it's GG. She is incredibly streamlined for her roll as a botlane marksman.

She has a weak early game? Give her a peely jungler and a pokey supporter and she can free farm all she wants. BorK is a good item for ADC's? It's so good on Vayne that she's one of the only marksman who can get away with buying it first and keeping up. She has no poke? She's better off without it. Her abilities cost so little mana you'd wonder why she doesn't just run on energy.

Also, yes she can. It's a bug. But Riot's never bothered to fix it because all the vayne mains speak in hushed tones whenever it's brought up.

SH AzykanJun 21, 20155 votes

Twitch I'm sorry, but vayne isn't the only one...granted Twitch is not seen around the rift as often.

windwolf777Jun 21, 20156 votes

{quoted}

I'm sorry, but vayne isn't the only one...granted Twitch is not seen around the rift is often.

Can't tell if invis pun, or pick rate statement? Or both...

SH AzykanJun 21, 20152 votes

Both :P

windwolf777Jun 21, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Both :P

.......

Ariel the CruelJun 21, 20152 votes

I believe the term, "double entendre", applies here.

Solari FortuneJun 20, 201534 votes

{quoted}

Also, I don't think Vayne can tumble out of a J4 ult. Let's not make up lies to try and back your point.

She can tumble out of his ult then turn around and condemn him into it

diamondlightJun 20, 20159 votes

This is really a bug with J4, that has nothing to do with Vayne.

Here's a list of everything that get's out of J4 Ult: http://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/77535/what-non-flash-abilities-can-get-you-out-of-jarvan-ivs-ultimate

Even Ghost summoner gets you out of his ult.

For some reason it's working technically like a minion-wall, even though it's terrain. Vayne Q ignores "unit collision", basically any ability that ignores unit collision can get through J4 ult it seems. Obviously this is a bug, a bug that's been around a long ass time.

They've made some improvements to "ability-terrain" but it seems there is still a lot more work to do.

I am curious if Phantom Dancer actually lets you just walk through it...

Ariel the CruelJun 20, 20154 votes

I am curious if Phantom Dancer actually lets you just walk through it...

Unless it was stealth fixed, yes. So does Fizz passive, Hecerim passive, and Jayce passive.

This also applies to Trundle Pillar and Anivia Wall.

For some reason it's working technically like a minion-wall, even though it's terrain.

All temporary terrain is made up of re-textured minions. So are wards and Thresh's lantern.

EDIT: copy/Paste error.

rockdalianJun 20, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Well, you aren't on much if you haven't seen a Vayne complaint thread. I think she is fine. Sure, she has a hella strong late game IF no1 locks her down. But, her early game is weak, she has very small aa range, and she has no poke. You can easily bully a Vayne into tower and watch her miss cs. It isn't that hard to shut her down early, hence why she isn't an LCS pick. They will actually take time to shut her down and then she is a bum. Also, I don't think Vayne can tumble out of a J4 ult. Let's not make up lies to try and back your point.

Actuall she can tumble out and condemn j4 to his own wall she's a hard counter to j4

Slamurai JackJun 21, 20156 votes

They created Vayne's paradise by nerfing all of the assassins and nerfing all the strong early game adcs. The table is set pretty much perfectly for Vayne, tanks are everywhere for her to shred on the enemy team while tanks on her team protect her. Bodyguard supports like Janna, Alistar, and Nautilus are in vogue, making her even more protected in teamfights and giving her free laning phases as well. Season 5 changes are also very favorable to her; the new dragon buffs and Baron buff makes sieging far easier which was one of Vayne's main weaknesses in the past; Mid laners now have Ludens so Vayne doesn't need to waveclear for her team anymore, and all of her items have gotten buffed while other adc items have been nerfed; Botrk, PD have both been buffed considerably while IE and Shiv by extension have been nerfed.

CaelerJun 21, 20155 votes

She has around the same range as Quinn; another "hyper carry" with self peel.

Vayne has 550 range, which is about the average for an ADC. Quinn only has 525 range.

stealthfox94Jun 20, 20154 votes

The thing about Vayne is she's the squishiest champ in the game, if her positioning is ever so slightly off or her reaction time is too slow she dies. Also she has no long range skillshot poke. Which DOES matter for ADC's. Oh yeah and lets not forget she is one of the few champs in the game that has absolutely 0 AOE damage.

Ser GarlandJun 20, 20153 votes

There's a lot of Squishy champions in the game. It just so happens that Vayne has so much outplay potential to the point where you can never get hit. That's why out of all the champions to go X/0, Vayne is ranked number one.

For vayne, you're going to be focusing on two things early game: farming, and getting out of fights. A poke would only serve as a noob trap to reduce your mana for when you need those disengage/engage abilities.

Yup, so instead of evenly distributing damage in a team fight she just deletes the enemy one champion at a time. Totally fun for whomever Vayne chooses to pin against the proverbial locker.

1000angrybeesJun 20, 20155 votes

Saying she's the squishiest champ in the game is kind of false, because there are a bunch that are destroyed in seconds, or have worse base health (and bad growth). You want a champ who's ridiculously squishy? look at Nami- awful base, awful growth. Anivia is even worse.

Also vayne has pretty decent growth, ending up with 1900+ at 18 plus all the lifesteal she's gonna have.

MistyPathJun 20, 20153 votes

I agree! I want to start learning how to play her. Is she a difficult champion to learn?

Ser GarlandJun 20, 20159 votes

Let's just say you have a few options for late game carry's.

-You have Tristana, who's thing is blowing up buildings and on demand mobility, but doing damage requires bursting explosions on the enemy like a water gun carnival game.

-You have Jinx, who has good zone control and aoe dps, but only gets mobility if something dies, leaving her as a sitting duck otherwise.

-You have Graves, amazing burst but not much for a sustained fight otherwise.

-Ashe, probably the best zone control but zero mobility as a penalty, also requires a bit of revving up before she can warm up to duel anyone.

-Quinn, probably the best on point mobility and burst but suffers by having to exhaust everything to do so.

Then there's Vayne. Do you know how to position yourself correctly? Good. There's no Niche for Vayne, just pure, on point damage. Do you like MLG LCS plays? Then Vayne is for you.

All other ADC's are villains of the week, and Vayne is Star Platinum. They'll have their tricks and their gadgets, but you are Vayne. Your kit is made to subdue and kill the enemy. Nothing more, nothing less.

one hundred percent pure, video game bull shit.

What Is SmiteJun 21, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ser Garland,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s833G0Ex,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2015-06-20T22:40:49.112+0000)

one hundred percent pure, video game bull shit.

Yea... I'm going back to my PS1 and Digimon World 1,2,and 3

diamondlightJun 20, 20156 votes

Very. She's one of the hardest ADC's to play well. Takes a ton of practice to CS well, tumble the right way at the right time, with the long cooldowns, you can really die very easily (contrary to the author's feelings on this thread).

Quinn actually has a ton more mobility than Vayne, but the leap bugs on Quinn have kept her from competitive play I believe. She doesn't leap predictably, nor does valor mark consistently.

Sassmast3rJun 20, 201510 votes

I hate to sound rude, but you make it sound as if it takes a lot of time to learn how to CS well WITH VAYNE. No, you can learn to CS at level 1 using any champion you'd please. So no, this does not make her challenging at all, especially since she can play safely until she manages to hit a level where her W does enough damage to minions on the third shot that she doesn't even need to try anymore. When it comes to her Tumble, I don't know why you think this is so hard either. It's relatively easy to Q and land that hit on their ADC. Not to mention, when she chases and uses her Q when there's already two stacks of her W on the opponent, my god does that do insane damage. You say that her cooldowns can be taken advantage of, however this is so easy to fix. Literally, play safely until you have BorK, and then farm. Early game is the best chance you have, and you most likely would need a jungler that is smart enough to realize her Q's cooldown, wait for her to waste it, and then actually have to mobility AND assassination potential to actually scrape a kill on her. Did I forget to mention that she also has an E to push said jungler out of her face? I know of about two or three junglers that actually have the mobility to make it to her PRE-6 and STILL manage to kill her even if her E is up and they just waited for her to waste her Tumble.

diamondlightJun 21, 20156 votes

Every ADC is dangerous if they are safe. Every one. That's their Role, to be massive damage dealers. They can all deal lots of damage, if they are safe. You're saying Vayne is dangerous if she is safe, no shit, they all are. You never seen a fed Jinx? Fed Lucian? Fed Graves? Fed Ezreal? Fed Trist?

Vayne isn't any "safer" than Jinx with Chompers, or Sivir with Speed up, or Trist with Rocket Jump, or Ezreal with Arcane Shift, or Quinn with Tag Team, etc etc.

So she has one knockback that has a long ass cooldown, if you waste it, and you're against a Lee Sin, you're dead. Lee Sin Q will come off CD way faster, and he can gap close. Renekton can catch Vayne, Tryndamere can catch Vayne, Irelia can catch Vayne. What will Vayne do against a Zac ult? Sejuani ult? CC destroys her, just like every ADC.

I see Vayne like maybe once in LCS every split, why? because her weakness is that she cannot switch targets, she can only focus on single target, and yes, if she is free to pound on a single target then she, like all adc's will kill that target.

If she is that easy to win with, I challenge you to take yourself to Master tier just by playing Vayne. It isn't as easy as you are making it sound.

BluePolarizerJun 21, 20151 votes

Vayne is far safer than Jinx or Sivir, since they don't have any self peel against highly mobile skirmishers like Riven MasterYi Yasuo . Once a skirmisher, damage bruiser or assassin sticks to Sivir or Jinx, they are dead without peel. Not so for Vayne. Even Yi has a hard time sticking to her, yet the funny thing is, Yi does way better at sticking to Vayne than almost any other champ in the game.

Loken StoneheartJun 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Vayne is far safer than Jinx or Sivir, since they don't have any self peel against highly mobile skirmishers like . Once a skirmisher, damage bruiser or assassin sticks to Sivir or Jinx, they are dead without peel. Not so for Vayne. Even Yi has a hard time sticking to her, yet the funny thing is, Yi does way better at sticking to Vayne than almost any other champ in the game.

Jinx shouldn't be in range to be assassinated. Even then, she has E which is pretty solid so long as you have the foresight to not drop it behind you.

Sivir-- Well, I'm not sure. She moves fast, but shes a teamfight ADC. I'd hope her quickened team would help to protect her.

Yi should have no trouble sticking to Vayne. Yi just saves his Q for after she E's, and then she has nothing left to escape with. Yasuo, maybe not-- but Yasuo doesn't stick unless he has minions/champs to continuously E through. Riven? Riven would actually just blow up Vayne without a second thought. Vayne does NOT have the range or peel/escape to deal with a champ that has four gap closers, two CCs, and crud tons of damage.

Vayne is good at chasing people. Vayne is not that good at running from people. She, like most other ADC's, has one "oh fuck" escape button, her E. Q isn't that great for escaping, as it is for potentially dodging around skillshots.

BluePolarizerJun 21, 20151 votes

I've played this matchup MasterYi vs Vayne many times in your elo, as well as against Sivir and Jinx as well. I've never had as much trouble with assassinating ADCs as a sustained damage melee, as I do against Vayne.

Played optimally, Yi is at a huge disadvantage, especially late game.

Mid game, Yi destroys Vayne because his base stats and maybe 1 early tank item are too much for her still relatively low AS and AD to handle, while he deals way too much mixed damage with BoRK, devourer and wuju style. Late game when everyone is 6 slotted, assuming Yi has not snowballed out of control and ended the game early, Vayne shits on Yi even 1v1. Yi has to run at Vayne to not have to Q onto her and thus leaving himself open to E, but Vayne in that time can land 2-3 free shots on Yi, which chunks him for at least 40% his HP if he built bruiser or 80% if he built full glass. Then all she needs is to land 2-3 more autos to kill him which isn't hard, since even late game Yi can't 1 shot Vayne and needs at least 3-4 autos, assuming he could afford to build crit. Most of the time Yi on a jungler budget can't afford to build crit without snowballing hard.

Also, Vayne destroys Riven because she needs to spend 2 gapcloser to get to Vayne, while Vayne can cancel her 3rd Q with E and get free hits. Each free hit, of course, chunks Riven because she is extremely squishy all game.

diamondlightJun 21, 20152 votes

You are just describing what an ADC does at late game. You are saying, when an ADC has full build they destroy everyone. You think Jinx with full AD/AS/Crit can't wipe Yi or Riven or whomever. She will DESTROY THEM. All ADC all squishy, with no additional hp, armor, nor mr. If they get caught they die.

Vayne has one escape from a gap closer, and it's not a physical movement escape meaning she doesn't move, she knocks THEM and on ONE champ only (Trist Ult actually will knock a whole group and then she can Jump away, try catching a Trist). If Maokai locks her down, she's done if there is any follow up. A flash-stun-tibbers from Annie, and who is Vayne gonna knockback? Tibbers? If there is follow-up, she's done. Trundle Pillar behind her? where is Vayne gonna go? What about Vi ult? Ok after Vi ult, Vayne uses E, guess what, Vi just charges up a Q and is right back in her face, and now what will Vayne do? What about a Morg Q? What does Vayne E do for that? Guess what, Black Shield, well shit, now the E doesn't even work. How about Sivir Spellshielding Vayne E, not only does save her vs the 3rd bolt, but also no knockback. Amumu Q into Amumu Ult? Fiddlesticks Fear and Silence, oops now you can't cast E for like 8 seconds? Ok, Nocturne Ult into Fear-Flash. Ok, how about Nautilus ult, followed by a Naut Q and auto-attack?

While any ADC will definitely take out a single target caught out, 1 v 1, pretty much almost any target at this point in the game (late game full build like you are saying). They cannot take out the whole team without a ton of protection by their own team, because while they are trying to take out one enemy, they are vulnerable to the others. Vayne is just as susceptible as all the rest.

If you watch LCS or Master/Challenger games, you'll see the immense focus on locking down the ADC. If they kill the ADC mid to late game, they typically can win the game, or at least get a major objective. This is the whole strategy of the game, but it's not that simple or easy of course. It's what separates the best teams from the average, AT THE PRO LEVEL, and no different at any other level.

BluePolarizerJun 21, 20151 votes

Jinx doesn't have anywhere near the self peel of Vayne. If she gets caught at ANY point in the game alone, she is dead. assuming equal gold. Vayne can actually duel many bruisers 1v1. That's where you have a huge misconception, that ADCs are supposed to be great duelists. Jinx isn't a great duelist.

diamondlightJun 21, 20152 votes

Huh? where are you getting this from? Jinx got me my first Penta. Jinx w (slow) and e (snare) can lock down the target and then she pounds them. Have you ever been hit by a Braum Q, where Jinx throws E behind you at the same time? What you gonna do then?

If you are saying that you should stand still and auto that sometimes you will die? No shit, ADC's have no armor, health or mr, they have to kite. It's all positioning.

People are just making up stuff now to QQ.

ImHerVoiceJun 21, 20153 votes

Its no wonder you're low elo, you make no sense.

Vayne has no burst. Vayne has no Aoe.

just shit on her with graves. Even a god awful low elo like yourself can auto win lane by just playing graves leo into a vayne.

problem solved.

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