https://youtu.be/k1wsNBxenXM?t=925
I would say Yay tbh, game would be much better. Everytime you add something like that balance becomes shit Dota2 added the talent system and saw their diversity in pro reduced by 50%
but designers always want to make the game fresh so if we remove the runes they would have no idea of how to make things exciting
Blakiepug21 votesI would really like the runes to be removed as well. The system sucks a lot of uniqueness out of champions and just generally I don't think it's very exciting. Runes add a ton of hidden power for no real reason. It's not like you see players in-game bragging about their Fleet Footwork procs or plays. I want the game to go back to being more focused around the champions you play rather than they rune pages you use.
ModKnightsKemplar15 votesYou know, I came in this thread expecting to argue in favor of them, but responses like this are actually changing my mind.
I wouldn't mind seeing some extra power system on the outside, but something so highly specialized, like the new runes, kind of... doesn't work that well. The champs that synergize well with the runes just end up being more fun, if not actually better.
I didn't like the old system, either, because it was way too restrictive, imo, but I don't know that a lot of balance problems were solved with the new one. If that was the goal, I would argue it isn't working. I realize the folks at Riot worked hard on the system, but I wouldn't mind seeing something that was just flat-out simpler. There's already so much complexity in the game; we didn't necessarily need all the complexities of the new runes.
Teridax6819 votesI'd say aye. If nothing else, so much of the current rune system is already more or less identical to the stuff found on items, and the rest can fit into itemization, so simply rolling runes into items could already remove one extra layer of complication without really affecting the game's depth. Tying so much power and complexity into a bunch of decisions that are made before the match even has a chance to start is, ultimately, not a great idea, since the choices end up being very shallow (most people at this point either have premade pages, or just edit according to their champion and muscle memory), yet still not all that clear to people looking to make the most out of all of these disparate gameplay effects from the match's start. Removing all of this early power, power that has taken increasingly more out of the unique traits of champions, could go a long way towards both differentiating champions better and allowing for a much smoother gameplay progression, with a clear start with base effects (i.e. one basic ability, two summoner spells, a trinket and a couple more basic items) going into more complex stuff later on.
Additionally, as mentioned by magewick, a ton of champions are so heavily balanced around certain rune setups that they cannot function without them. However, whereas they argued that this was a reason to keep runes, Paroe and I believe this is even more of a reason to remove runes altogether. If a champion's balance is being warped by a rune, then that rune is simply bad for balance and creates a false choice, where anyone who isn't in on the meta ends up screwing themselves over if they don't pick the right setup. It's impossible with the current state of the game to create a rune system that generates real choice from champion to champion, as every champion will always have optimal synergy with a certain set of runes (in fact, entire subclasses at this point tend to share the same rune setup), so the system brings no real choice, but on top of that it adds little in the way of real gameplay, on top of seriously affecting balance. Removing runes would make balancing champions and items easier, while at least reducing the number of situations where champions get completely bent out of shape by an effect that's not in their kit.
Spank the Fox6 votesDefinitely the biggest takeaway here is the line “what is found on runes can be replaced on items”
For example, Black Market Brawlers had an item that increased stats in river, which we have a rune for. I’d much rather have the item to incorporate meaningful choices than the brainless “I guess I have to pick something in this line” Waterwalking rune.
Any rune that dictated a certain playstyle has been nerfed and we’re better off using generalistic runes because of consistentency, since we can’t change them midgame.
The most exciting thing recently are Singed and Vlad itemization that are fluid, adaptive and responsive to their kit and what they want to achieve. For example, Shurelia’s is a garbage item late game but fantastic early game for how cheap it is, the stats it gives and the active. With runes being scrapped and not worrying about every possible minute rune change, we can focus on itemization that focusses on early/late game dynamics, slot efficiency, active potency, etc.
ChargeItDownMid15 votes[deleted]
Paroe51 votesIMO, removing runes when so many champions are balanced with them in mind will create far more balance nightmares than leaving them in.
The problem isn't having runes/masteries as much as having them change so often. The last change from pay to win runes to free runes should be the last major change to runes. Riot needs to stick with one system for 2-3 seasons so that they can actually balance all 140+ champions around said system.
Thats... a good reason to remove them though. Champions should never be balanced around external things - Its bad design and leads to accidental dumpstering when a champion who relies on an item gets nerfed BECAUSE of the item, then the item they were balanced around gets nerfed. Its called a compound nerf, and its one of riots specialties.
TehNACHO7 votesWell one thing to consider is how oddly undefined the role Runes play in the powercurve of champions. Are they supposed to reflect playstyles, champion kits, power scaling, or so on, because currently Runes are all over the place leading to today's issue of some champions naturally floating towards certain runes and a handful of them totally breaking them.
For the opposite example, take Flash. A lot of people may be annoyed that literally everyone runs Flash, but it's also more or less equally powerful for everyone. Even the edge cases aren't that far off the usual power curve, if that's what we'd like to call it. Even if Flash got removed from the game right now, it won't break the whole game the same way removing Runes does.
I think a semi-universal system like Runes can work as an external factor if it were dramatically simplified and very hyperspecifically defined.
50000000000000007 votesFlash is most definitely not "more or less equally powerful on everyone."
Champions with dash+CC abilities (Shen, Jarvan IV, Riven, Gragas, just to name a few) taking flash massively increases the reliability of those abilities. Similar with Annie's flash tibbers, Maokai's flash W, Taric's E flash, or Lee Sin's R flash. On the other hand, there are others like Shaco or Kassadin who don't really need flash, or Soraka or Teemo, who don't really have any significant flash interactions with their kits, and just use it for escape or sometimes gapcloser.
Basically, imagine League without flash, and how much of a meta change that's gonna cause. If flash was more or less equally powerful on everyone, power level of each champion would stay about the same, but that isn't what's going to happen. Champions who can cross walls is going to become extremely valuable. Immobile champions with little self peel will have no way to defend themselves.
TehNACHO6 votesGonna need a citation on Kassadin not needing flash. He has a laning phase to deal with, after all.
I'm not denying that some champions favor flash more than others, I'm arguing that they're not usually to such extreme margins as warping as, say, the Rune system. Many of the specific champion interactions you've listed for example are micromechanics that at best may lean a fight in somebody's favor every 5 minutes or at worst can have 0 real impact in a game, but even so micromechanics alone do not make or break the game for practically 99% of the playerbase considering just how many micromechanic interactions every single champion in the game has. And your point about Soraka and Teemo are arguments for the relatively equal power of flash, in fact. If these champions without very particular micromechanical interactions with flash are still taking flash, that says something about flash's inherent value with or without the micromechanics.
Let me rephrase it like this: I don't disagree some champions use flash better than others, I'm just saying that it's not to such an extreme that Flash makes or breaks certain champions the same way the Precision keystones break their users to such extreme or how runes like Phase Rush are overwhelmingly niche but disgustingly strong on the few champions that can use it effectively.
Now I will concede the meta thing. While I will point out that champions crossing walls vs those who can't is already a gigantic factor in the meta, the fact remains that we're going to see specialization (in mobility, in this case) standing out more. However, I want to point out this is a really strong argument against having our current Rune system. The keystones especially are very powerful, sometimes entirely warping entire champion playstyles and even their capacity within the meta (Arcane Comet fixing Camille's laning phase, for example). If we removed the Rune system as it is right now, it will cause waaaaaaaaaay more damage to the balance of the game as it is than removing flash, which again was the original point of using flash as an example:
Even if Flash got removed from the game right now, it won't break the whole game the same way removing Runes does.
Again, I'm not saying Flash is perfect or micromechanics don't exist, I'm saying that it's a way better example of universal power than the Rune system. Please take the argument in that direction.
Spoofghoul2 votes
the king of compound nerfs
Get to the choppa
another leg need to get axed
I ain't limpin hard enough yet
AR URF2 votesIMO, removing runes when so many champions are balanced with them in mind will create far more balance nightmares than leaving them in.
The problem isn't having runes/masteries as much as having them change so often. The last change from pay to win runes to free runes should be the last major change to runes. Riot needs to stick with one system for 2-3 seasons so that they can actually balance all 140+ champions around said system.
mhmm. It's like how press the attack is amazing on 
and removing it would break her.
69ScrotalAgony695 votesPlease come back buddy, we miss you.
4eva10 votes[deleted]
GigglesO4 votesI just want the old rune system back without the level 30 requirement and maybe a less grindy price..
Mr Vader9 votesI miss old runes and masteries before keystones. I miss going full armor Leona against all ad team. I miss my ad runes on thresh. I miss having mana regen. I miss the old defensive tree and utility tree.
Add new champs. Ok Add new items. Ok Change ip to be. Ok Change jungle for the millionth time. Change vision and support items. Do whatever you want to do riot to keep the game “fresh”
You didn’t have to change the runes and masteries IMO.
WalkingInACircle9 votesI'd say yay, but with no expectation of it happening in the next 5 years.
VoraciousX9 votesRunes are honestly good for diversity in the game. It's the way they're implemented that is a problem. Riot constantly makes one rune superior to the other, or makes a rune that every champ uses "best".
Spank the Fox6 votesThere’s always gonna be a “best” rune if almost all of them are competing on how to deal damage.
Runes should all look like Inspiration tbh. Innovative wacky shit that isn’t just pure stats or just added burst to a rotation you were already going to perform, regardless of the rune.
And because of this, you end up having to balance a champ around a certain rune if they prove problematic, which forces them to become even more reliant on that particular rune since their damage has been neutered that other runes will be even LESS optimal for them.
DuskDaUmbreon3 votesI'm fine with stat-based runes as long as it's still...something behind it.
Gathering Storm is a fine rune, even though it's just stats. As are the other ramped/delayed power runes, like the Legend row, or Transcendence.
Anything that requires an earlier sacrifice (either by outright losing something, or by simply not having the power from other available runes) for later power is a potentially good rune, in my personal opinion.
Nymzo9 votesThe biggest problem with removing runes is that remving them would be the equivalent of Riot saying "We fucked up." and knowing them, they have a hard time admitting their failures on balance topics.
koshkyra8 votesThey dont need to be removed entirely they just need to be reworked so they arent so damage-heavy, also they could use a moderate power decrease in general as i feel like they have too much impact for a system designed to give you a small buff.
Paroe4 votesThey dont need to be removed entirely they just need to be reworked so they arent so damage-heavy.
Giving champs to much utility can lead to problems too, though.
But i mean... As long as the current system is "class based" it will ALWAYS have problems. Also as long as AP casters = supports, they will never have decent rune options unless theyre battle mages like cass and ryze.
SweedishGunner7 votesI mean runes were basically removed. All we're left with now is an expanded mastery system calling itself 'runes'.
KZ Engel6 votesrunes reforged basically completely replaced the foundation that the entirety of this game and its balance was built upon. i've been against em since the announcement
Keevalroy3 votes[{quoted}](name=KZ Engel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s7Ihk8MM,comment-id=004b,timestamp=2018-05-29T19:18:59.807+0000)
runes reforged basically completely replaced the foundation that the entirety of this game and its balance was built upon. i've been against em since the announcement
So have I, but updates like this share the same protection as new champions. No matter how toxic the kit is on reveal, Riot's fanatical zealots crawl away from their sacrificial alters to senselessly throw themselves at us "salty whiners" in an effort to drown out the criticism and panic from people who know how to read and think for themselves. Let's use a past example of this:
Me: Kalista is fucking toxic. How could you possibly look at this kit and say it's healthy?
Fanboiz: HURRRRR SHE A KOOL CHAMP BRO! BALANCED CUZ YOONEEK UND FUUUUNNNNN!
Community 4 months later: Dude WTF even is Kalista?? She's so cancer! How was this approved??
ModCaptainMårvelous5 votesHuge no.
There's so much innate built into runes (as well as old runes/masteries) that it's impossible to remove them without basically destroying the entire game. And no, this isn't "Oh but for the good of league you could..." situation. Removing runes would do irreparable damage. So many kits, items, champions and more are tweaked and balanced around runes. Hell, even when they removed OG runes they had to put statistical bonuses into the trees or else champions couldn't function.
If I remade league would I have them? Probably not. But it's like Flash: A system(s) so ingrained into league that removing it would destroy the game to a point where it could not realistically recover.
Irelia Bot5 votesHuge no.
There's so much innate built into runes (as well as old runes/masteries) that it's impossible to remove them without basically destroying the entire game. And no, this isn't "Oh but for the good of league you could..." situation. Removing runes would do irreparable damage. So many kits, items, champions and more are tweaked and balanced around runes. Hell, even when they removed OG runes they had to put statistical bonuses into the trees or else champions couldn't function.
If I remade league would I have them? Probably not. But it's like Flash: A system(s) so ingrained into league that removing it would destroy the game to a point where it could not realistically recover.
They basically did that already with the runes remastered.
Turning runes off would be the easy part. The challenge would be the patches right after where balance would be in a hellish state.
That being said RIot could turn off runes in PBE and get at least some idea of how things will be and target the worst offenders to lessen the balance issues.
Disulfiram3 votes[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s7Ihk8MM,comment-id=001a0000,timestamp=2018-05-29T05:15:34.354+0000)
That being said RIot could turn off runes in PBE and get at least some idea of how things will be and target the worst offenders to lessen the balance issues.
This has been proposed for Flash too ("remove Flash from PBE for 1 cycle, so we can get an idea of what actually would that change"), but I don't know why it hasn't ever been done.
ModCaptainMårvelous7 votesFlash is beyond fucked in terms of League and so closely ingrained that it is a literal tumor.
Let's go to a magical world where flash is removed. I want you to imagine what this does to certain characters and how mobile, ranged characters skyrocket in power while champions with 2-3 dashes in their kit now surpass others by far. That's not to mention how much champion design has been influenced by flash, as you see with the mobility arms race of range trying to stay away while melee tries to get closer.
Suffice to say, it's a growth on the game that would turn into a fatal hemorrhage if you tried to cut it off.
Disulfiram4 votesHonestly, I doubt that flashing would have saved my immobile mage from that Akali.
It is indeed a very powerful and ingrained spell, but with it being on such a long cooldown... I don't know, I'd prefer to see the actual effect of its removal.
After all, observation is a critical part of any scientific process, and since League does have a dedicated space just for that... why not use it?
4th3t0s4 votesSo many kits, items, champions and more are tweaked and balanced around runes.
There's your problem; prior to keystones, they offered variety, but weren't so overbearing that they could cause balance issues.
ModCaptainMårvelous4 votesThis is incorrect. There were always issues as much as people like to meme about back in the day. The problem was twofold:
A.) People weren't good enough at League. B.) People were still discovering things.
For a clear example, by Season 3, runes were a solved system. I'm certain there's someone who will try to dredge up the "NO NO BUT WHAT ABOUT MY SUPER UNIQUE RUNEPAGE", to which I point out that there are at least 2-3 rune pages for current runes. There was, however, always a right/optimal choice and the tech choice was rarely, if ever, better.
Again, if Riot did league 2, just don't bother with them. As they are now? Too much pain and work, especially from a playerbase that gets furious at any minor change in a buff or a nerf.
4th3t0s3 votesThat may be true, but the current system has really just added a multitude of problems we were close to minimizing; you don't build a better mousetrap by making everything out of cheese.
THE RlVER KlNG3 votesthe introduction of keystones in late s5 kinda fucked up league balance and set the ball rolling for the bs we've had the last two and a half years
TeCoolMage5 votesI think keystones in general should be removed, but other runes are fine if balanced right.
The idea of changing your playstyle to conform to a rune is a bit much, and giving players less freedom
But other runes tend to be so minor that you can't really play around them. Instead, they strengthen certain aspects of playstyles. For example, in an ideal setting, Ahri could go sudden impact, or she could go taste of blood, both of them being very good in that she can either play a sustain-y mage in lane, or an assassin mid to late game.
I used to believe runes and passive effects that you opt into should always be flashy to some degree, otherwise you just work them into base stats or have it picked automatically without wasting any 'points' or 'slots', but now I believe that all other examples of passive effects have just been terrible and skewed my perception. In your typical WoW like MMORPG you're going to take that 3% damage to orange female dancers because it lets you get that next ability which is an active that sends 9000 daggers in a cone to swarm at an enemy. Or because people crunched the numbers and it's the best in a PvE game where the enemy doesn't really do anything unexpected. What hasn't changed though is my hate for skill trees. Please for the love of god just remove those.
What matters is, you know when it's strong and you know when you're in a situation where that rune matters most (late game, early game, long trades, drawn out attrition teamfight), and that it to some degree does make you noticeably better, not enough that you try to throw yourself into these situations, but just enough that you acknowledge that as a player you want to cover a weakness or double down on a strength so that when that time comes you have an ace that'll make you just that tiny bit better.
Runes that I think should be kept disregarding numbers entirely:
everything else remove ty.
I Love Roses5 votesNo, I love the rune.
bbQsauçe5 votes[deleted]
cocacolalips3 votesrofl, you only needed 2 runes pages for all the champions in the game, everything else was a noob trap.
it's not freedom, it's the illusion of it, there will always be one optimal way to play your champion, but nothing stops you from goofing around and picking suboptimal runes if you don't care about winning, not before and not now.
UpDownLeftRightAB3 votesThose 2 rune pages were the budget rune pages and were mainly for blind pick scenarios.
That was just the general, I don't want to think about it here are some general stats.
There were several ways to build champs with different base stats based on what you were planning to do in the game. You could make 6 rune pages for a single champion based on who you were laning against or who you were worried about in a teamfight or how you wanted to clear jungle. There were cheesy level 2 all-in pages, passive gold cheeses, health regen for laning, armor stacking, and more.
It essentially was a build your own item, if you knew what you wanted on a champ, you could have that "item"
Salamencę4 votesGimme the old runes AND masteries back
Absolut Garen5 votesGimme the old runes AND masteries back
Runes Reforged was a mistake.
YoNightmare74 votesI actually think this could be a great idea, we wouldn't have to check our runes everytime before game start and it'd be much more relaxing. It'd be much simpler for new players too.
Sadly I doubt Riot will even consider this option, it's probably too glued to them. Maybee if we make enough noise, and by enough I mean a ton of noise.
woodvsmurph4 votesRunes make the game infinitely more complex to balance. So do items. Without these, the game could be balanced much more easily and the differences in champions better felt in many, but not all cases. This would leave room to better truly balance champions themselves and give the option of more champion-specific level up options... like HOTS. However, this also removes massive amounts of diversity in the game - something league players truly value to the extreme. Just think what removing an ap ratio or ad ratio on a champ - such as shaco - does... the whole community playing that champ freaks out. And that's exactly what you would create doing this.
Add in the crazy amount of time spent re-balancing the game and you'd have one major mess on your hands - enough to make runes reforged (which actually went surprisingly mostly smoothly) look like a cake walk. In the end, you'd have a game that would be much easier to balance and more potential to make champions playstyles uniquely theirs (compared to something like old jax is a better or at least simpler to execute version of old irelia). But the effort it would take and the diversity it would remove (at least while champ kits and level ups were still in experimentation) would be massive. Possibly enough to cost the game many of its players - at least for a season while the dust was settling.
Sure we could do one or the other... removing runes OR items, but then we'd still have the same problems - just with one source for them instead of two. So in the end, it would be a big shakeup and little actually gained from it compared to removing both of them.
Warlord Rhinark4 votesYou should have added a poll.
(I vote yay by the way).
Summonah123694 votesYay.
Bonipherus3 voteswhy didn't you include a poll?
ModAcademy Kayn3 votesI'm confused as to why he would bold "On The" on the title card. Like, I don't know, that seems like bad title carding
Semaj3xt4h3 votesI miss the old rune/mastery system and ALSO I preferred the old stat system over the new talent system in dota 2, lol... Personally pumping up stats on someone like antimage or riki when you have realllly low HP gain really helped you get through that early stage, but then again i play ability draft only on there sooo... I thought it was nice to buy drums/wand pump stats and get setup for team fights at the 15-20 min marker...
edit: if they removed runes entirely from this game, id probably quit. carry on.
hi ìm groot3 votesGod yes, adding a new dimension to this game when it already had close to 200 champions was the worst idea ever. It creates the most unrealistic balancing nightmare ever, and for no reason. These runes aren't even interesting, most of them just tack on damage.
DemainaNyx3 votesI would be for it.
Nothing is more frustrating than flashing away from someone, surviving the last tick of ignite, only to have fricken Aery come and smack you one last time. Or having a Zed ult, miss everything, hit auto (with duskblade) and ignite only to have the ult pop proc Electrocute that takes 30% of your HP. As Lulu, I can W my ADC and apply both my attack speed buff as well as Ardent Censor due to Aery, which means I can use my Shield on the person taking damage instead of just applying Ardent. Or I can apply Ardent to both my ADC and someone else on my team, which is something Lulu isn't supposed to be able to do.
Vlad (and many other champions) main weakness is he has no way to get into the middle of the enemy team. He has all the damage he needs, but no way to easily get in to use it. You give him Predator, and suddenly he can essentially just ghost into a teamfight despite him not taking that summoner (or he takes both so you never get a teamfight without a Vlad in the middle of your team). OR you give him Unsealed Spellbook so that he can have Ignite for early lane, swap to TP if he can't get a kill, and move to Ghost for late game teamfights, which just has no downside for him.
Is Vlad OP? No, but runes definitely cover up his weaknesses. At least before he had to pick something. If he wanted Ghost, he didn't get to take ignite early to cheese kills. Or if he took ignite and didn't get a kill, now you knew he'd have a hard time late game because of the lack of Ghost.
I completely understand that champions would need to be buffed or such in order to compensate for this. Like, Vlad would probably need a slight movespeed buff. But I think in general it would be easier to balance because there would be less variables.
