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"We lose because of our Jungler"

LifeCyclesTWA··10 votes·1,465 views

Many a time have I heard this phrase, either spoken of me or of my jungler. Sometimes, junglers don't know what they are doing, just like any other player of any other position. Sometimes, junglers have bad games, just like any other player of any other position. However, chances are YOU yourself are the moron and YOUR FLAMING is why you are going to lose. On that note, LCS wanna-be's/cockwads here is some advice:

  1. If you want a gank, don't push your damn lane to the enemy turret. I'm not going to tower dive 2 full health enemy champions.

  2. When I/any jungler pings or tells you that I am going to gank, don't charge into a fight while I'm on my way to your lane and get yourselves killed. It makes me question your intelligence.

  3. Some laners are bullies early on and its good to take advantage of that by playing aggressively. Some laners are weak early and need to focus on farming so they get their key items. Why the fuck do expect every god damn jungler in the game to do the same exact thing? If I am Master Yi, sorry! My ganks suck unless I have red buff or if I TP in with a pair of homeguards, so I won't be ganking as often as if I were playing Shaco. Why the fuck would I waste my and your time failing a gank when my strengths lie in my super fast jungle clears? If I ward the enemy jungle, I can know where the enemy jungler is AT ALL TIMES. If he started blue buff, it'll be up at around 7:10. If he started red buff, it'll be up around 7:10. If he ganks bot lane, I can steal the whole top half of his jungle. If he ganks top lane, I can steal the whole bottom half of his jungle. If you had the opportunity to completely deny a waves of minions at a time your enemy ADC, would you?

  4. Again, there are different types of junglers.

Those that are amazing at ganking and should prioritize doing that as soon and as quickly as possible. FE; Shaco Pantheon LeeSin etc....

Those that need to rush to level 6 Warwick Fiddlesticks etc....

Those that are extremely damn good at destroying the jungle but are trash at ganking MasterYi etc...

Those that are great duelists early on or can safely invade/counter-jungle other junglers very well in addition to strong ganking capabilities (ofcourse this portion is dependant upon matchup): LeeSin Udyr Nunu etc....

There are different things that each jungler excels at. Do not expect every jungler to be the same. I'm tired of getting chat-blocked because I tell idiots like you to shut your dumbass mouths because you feel like me not babysitting your dumbass makes me "bad"

43 Comments

AtheosisX9 votes

Maybe a little more rage than necessary, but you make good points. It's always hilarious seeing a lane pinging for a gank from a level 3 Warwick. I laugh every time I see that.

LifeCyclesTWA2 votes

That is the worst lmao. It was actually that exact situation which caused me to write this thread.

"wtf useless junglr no gank"

<<< Level 4 Warwick, lane gave up a double kill to enemy ADC while I was in top half of jungle. If you lose your lane because the enemy jungler made some excellent plays, that is unfortunate. Maybe you weren't warded well enough, or maybe you didn't go back in time, or maybe a Hecarim with super-movement speed charged in and killed you despite your best efforts.

But if you lose your lane because you got outplayed by your lane opponent, that is an entirely different matter. I understand every champion has counters, and I understand that sometimes a match-up is so bad that you will NEED your jungler to help give you the edge just so you will be able to farm. Not feeding is cool, but not feeding and not being able to farm because you are getting denied so hard by your lane so hard also hurts your team. It is in this situation that I believe the jungler is absolutely necessary to give their laner an opportunity to stay in the game. Otherwise, don't blame the jungler for you getting out-played. There is only so much a jungler can do, especially if he himself has a bad matchup (getting counter-jungled can be horrible. Shaco vs Udyr/Lee Sin are examples of a horrible jungle matchups)

Nameless Voice2 votes

Even better is when they start pinging for assistance when you are level 2 and just doing your first main buff camp.

Sometimes people forget that this is season 5.

Partholonian4 votes

I agree with most of this, but I cringe when I see a MasterYi jungle on my team. 1/3 chance he's going to snowball out of control, 2/3 he's going to be useless all game. (Of course those proportions reverse when he's on the enemy team... lol.)

In addition to having weak ganks at all levels, he also has really low utility, so if he's not fed enough to kill people before he becomes targetable, WTF else is he going to do? (Maybe splitpush, but you know how that turns out in soloq. He'll get caught, or the enemy team will force a 5v4, or both.)

Not coincidentally, I practically never play him myself when I am jungling. Mainly I favor tanky initiator junglers Amumu Sejuani , although I'd love to try some Khazix Evelynn Elise Diana but I feel like they're just too weak and I'd be letting my teams down.

Only Play Darius2 votes

Splitpushing is god. You should learn Yi.

The Queen Viper1 votes

If you want to splitpush, then Tryndamere .

Yi is trash unless you are Cowsep.

SymbolicFear1 votes

Diana is a lot of fun to jungle with. She isn't weak at all, actually, she is pretty powerful, especially late game.

mvargus1 votes

She can be good, but she needs to be fairly well fed to really be effective and pre-6 her ganks are definitely not all that great. I often use her when I'm not running a tank jungler.

mvargus1 votes

I started jungling with tanks back in January. I had Sejuani and used her a lot while getting to level 30 and while I was gaining confidence before going into ranked. I also have/use Amumu and Maokai when I need a tank.

I own Elise, Diana and Evelynn and have some thoughts.

Elise - fun to play once you get her combos down, but not great. Her human form spells don't do enough damage to really knock down someone and her spider form's melee abilities seem to be underwhelming unless she's got a lot of items to build up the damage. I can understand why she's not considered a good jungler at the moment.

Diana - She actually clears the jungle fairly well and post-6 her ult allows her to burst down squishy champions. Unfortunately she's not a great duelist and tanks can really put a hurt on her. If the other team isn't running a tank jungler she's viable, but someone like Amumu can wreck her.

Evelynn - I'll admit I've only used her a few times since I got her. Another very fun to play champion that has some unusual mechanics. I'd say she's great at early ganks, but falls off to hard late game. Not sure how that can be fixed though.

warpenguin5553 votes

My favorite response to use is: wow shit, i didnt know i fed your lane. Oh thats right, i didnt

unless i did feed their lane XD

Bemapon2 votes

I normally respond with "Not my job to win your lane"

I mean sure I can help win their lane, but in the end it comes down to them.

Jus Clownin2 votes

{quoted}

I normally respond with "Not my job to win your lane"

I mean sure I can help win their lane, but in the end it comes down to them.

So much this.

Shogunai3 votes

I love this thread, for these exact reasons I migrated out of jungling, however I'm slowly going back to it, people are just so toxic to junglers an not realizing we are playing a role just like you are. We may tax you for coming to your lane, however we don't take all your farm so stay out of the jungle an steal our only source of income. If you want a gank be ready for the gank, do just sit an farm an while I'm in your lane ganking an already pre pinged that I was coming to assist you. Don't complain that I took the kill because you fail to do anything to help or would let the opponent get away. Don't whine that I'm not ganking an complain of camping if you refuse to ward your lane. For solo laners its your job to protect yourself not anyone else. Now if I'm in the area I will drop a ward if I have 1 to help out but buy a ward an upgrade your trinket at level 9 250g won't kill your or destroy your path of builds.

Now I understand there are some junglers out there that are just terrible, afk farming the whole game or tower diving for no reason an not pushing objectives, it happens. Flaming overall does nothing but her the entire team, of course it gets frustrating to have team members not on the same level but this game is designed this way. Get over it! You got to learn an adapt to the skill set of your team mates an do all you can to stay positive an help your team win.

This game is just like chess, nothing but situational play from start to finish.

The Bíg Ticket2 votes

Fiddlesticks doesn't need to rush level 6 before he can gank. He has good cc with his fear and silence and very good damage on his W if you use it correctly, its usually enough to get an early kill if you have a fairly good laner.

LifeCyclesTWA1 votes

I was hesitant about adding him to that section. Its more like, "His ganks benefit more from hitting level 6 than most junglers" He is similar to Sion and Nautilus in that matter. Fiddle / Nautilus / Sion all can gank pre-6, but their ganking power benefits greatly after hitting 6 in comparison to other junglers. Before 6, Fiddle / Naut / Sion are good at making laning blow flashes (which is more than what WW can say). After 6, they are gain a ton my killing power and their ganks are much more effective.

I know you already knew that, just wanted to let you know what my thinking was.

The Bíg Ticket1 votes

Alright, fair point. I get you man :)

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

Jus Clownin4 votes

No. If at any time you die in your lane and I didn't bait you or feed your opponent that is 100% YOUR fault. You either didn't ward, were pushed too far, or missed my 10 pings when i saw that Lee sin coming down on you in lane.

If i am playing Warwick, I'm not going to waste my time showing up just to scare your lane. 99/100 times everyone comes away empty and it puts me behind. I will come at 6. If you can't hold your turret until 6 that is entirely your fault.

If I am playing Shaco, and you're pushed to the enemy turret and get ganked by the enemy jungle and then proceed to ping and say stuff like "OMG MY JUNGLE USELESS" I will likely -never- help you (I can't tell you how many games I've had bot lanes that do this. It's hilarious.)

Bottom line: My job is to assist when it's feasible (and profitable for EVERYONE, not just you) not win your lane for you.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

LifeCyclesTWA2 votes

False. It YOUR job to win YOUR lane. It is the junglers job to secure objectives and ensure his laners make it to late game. If you are in a bad matchup, such as Teemo vs Garen, I will gank your lane and attempt to give you an advantage. If you play Nasus, I will put loads of pressure on top-lane so you can farm as much as possible. If you are in a skill-based match up, such as Garen vs Darius, you bet I will not help you unless they are humping your turret. If you give up a kill, its YOUR fault.

Top lane should expect to have little to no ganks. There is nothing to gain -WHATSOEVER- by ganking top. If mid or bot gets ganked, we get dragon and possibly a turret. If I gank top, the gank will 1) fail, 2) cause him to blow a summoner, or 3) land a kill for me or you. No matter which happens, he respawns in like 15 seconds and teleports back to his lane, resulting in little to no benefit to the team.

Jus Clownin1 votes

{quoted}

I'm sure there are a few very specific times when it isn't the junglers fault but let's be honest, it is the jungler's fault most of the time. This is simply due to the fact that junglers have a larger impact during the earlygame than other roles so on average, it is the jungler's fault more than it is other people's fault for the earlygame.

Dude this is so patently false its ridiculous. An aware laner can shut down any effect that a jungler has on his lane. Learn jungler patterns and ward at proper times. (Dont drop a ward the second you pass the halfway point.) If you know which junglers start where you can ascertain where they are on the map even through fog of war. Be aware of whats happening on the minimap, communicate with your team.

As a jungler there are two types of laners. The type that are tunnel visioned on their lanes, and good laners. It's alot easier to catch the first type in a gank than the second.

Buy. Wards. Don't just rely on your trinket (especially after your first back). Upgrade your trinket ASAP.

Hinro Honato1 votes

{quoted}

Dude this is so patently false its ridiculous. An aware laner can shut down any effect that a jungler has on his lane. Learn jungler patterns and ward at proper times. (Dont drop a ward the second you pass the halfway point.) If you know which junglers start where you can ascertain where they are on the map even through fog of war. Be aware of whats happening on the minimap, communicate with your team.

As a jungler there are two types of laners. The type that are tunnel visioned on their lanes, and good laners. It's alot easier to catch the first type in a gank than the second.

Buy. Wards. Don't just rely on your trinket (especially after your first back). Upgrade your trinket ASAP.

There's actually a pretty good way to practice this. you're going to get flamed to hell for it but take clairvoyance for a bit. Keep scanning the enemy jungle for where you think they should be. Eventually you will be able to predict where they are most of the time. very few junglers are unpredictable to some degree. Oh and mute your team when practicing this way. not worth the headache.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

Jus Clownin1 votes

A jungler simply cannot be in all lanes and maintain viability late game. Just like you - i need to CS in the jungle in order to perform late game. If you're being ganked often its because youre doing something wrong. That enemy jungler knows you're an easy target and can be caught easily and will constantly gank you. Thats your bad not mine. Again, my job isnt to win your lane, my job is to control objectives and assist when i can, not when YOU demand it.

Apollocliptic2 votes

{quoted}

No. If at any time you die in your lane and I didn't bait you or feed your opponent that is 100% YOUR fault. You either didn't ward, were pushed too far, or missed my 10 pings when i saw that Lee sin coming down on you in lane.

If i am playing Warwick, I'm not going to waste my time showing up just to scare your lane. 99/100 times everyone comes away empty and it puts me behind. I will come at 6. If you can't hold your turret until 6 that is entirely your fault.

If I am playing Shaco, and you're pushed to the enemy turret and get ganked by the enemy jungle and then proceed to ping and say stuff like "OMG MY JUNGLE USELESS" I will likely -never- help you (I can't tell you how many games I've had bot lanes that do this. It's hilarious.)

Bottom line: My job is to assist when it's feasible (and profitable for EVERYONE, not just you) not win your lane for you.

I agree, most of the time it is the lanes fault, i only blame the jungler if they "FORCE" a gank I wasn't ready for (no mana, full cd, low hp, etc) and give my opponent kills and either don't help or continue to feed rather than work with me and come at times when I have the advantage.

However, don't underestimate the value of "scaring" a lane. Dropping in a lane that's struggling at level 3, (on your way to another lane) not stopping, just passing by to show your pressence, make the enemy lane pull back for a bit, and makes the enemy jungler think about what to do, especially since they don't know if your still nearby or gone farming. It can buy your ally just enough time to reach level 3 or level 6, if their opponent got there first, or get them that little bit of farm for a life steal or regen skill (like Galio's W, Ahri's passive, etc) just to help them get the gold they need for a break point. I am not saying always come when a lane pings, you are probably right "most" of the time, but yeah, "sometimes" it does REALLY help, if you just show your face long enough at a certain time to balance out a bad situation, especially if the opponent is getting ready to dive, it helps the lane clear the minions before going back, saving the turret some serious damage or getting them enough gold for a break point, etc

BluePolarizer1 votes

if you die 1v1 then it is your fault.

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

I agree with most of your points, but I just want to point out one thing. Might not matter, but it may help someone.

  1. If you want a gank, don't push your damn lane to the enemy turret. I'm not going to tower dive 2 full health enemy champions.

If your ally has pushed the enemy to their turret, you can still gank the lane by going through the lane bushes and waiting for the lane to reset. Then, when the enemy laner goes forward to CS, you can gank them. The river is commonly warded, but top (and sometimes bot) lane will often not bother warding their lane bushes.

SymbolicFear1 votes

Its not the Jungler's job to babysit, it is to keep the good players fed. That means.... IF YOU ARE ADC OR MID OR TOP IT DOESN'T MATTER, EARN THE DAMN GANKS, THEY HAVE NO REASON TO HELP A FEEDER.

Jus Clownin2 votes

{quoted}

Its not the Jungler's job to babysit, it is to keep the good players fed. That means.... IF YOU ARE ADC OR MID OR TOP IT DOESN'T MATTER, EARN THE DAMN GANKS, THEY HAVE NO REASON TO HELP A FEEDER.

While this is a common theme, i don't agree with the only helping lanes that are already ahead philosophy. As a main jungle unless my ally is completely outclassed and hopeless (hard countered, behind kills, enemy ungankable) i'll do what I can to dig them out of that hole. IF its possible. End game having a completely weak link might as well make it 5v4.

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

Allowing for exceptions when the enemy laner could easily turn a gank into a double kill. Ganking a fed Rumble or Riven when they have their ultimate can be a horrible decision. At that point, your best bet it probably to snowball the other lanes so someone can handle the fed enemy.

Hinro Honato1 votes

{quoted}

Allowing for exceptions when the enemy laner could easily turn a gank into a double kill. Ganking a fed Rumble or Riven when they have their ultimate can be a horrible decision. At that point, your best bet it probably to snowball the other lanes so someone can handle the fed enemy.

I had this happen recently, I went to gank top and it was a rumble with ult. they got a double. I was playing yi and I had a fair bit of damage but damn I got melted hard. vlad wasn't happy when I essentially told him good luck buddy. After explaining it vlad played a lot safer and he understood my reasons. he understood thankfully. He trash talked the hell out of me pretty good before I explained it better. essentially went mad stone udyr and got my self snowballed then everyone else. came back for the win ^.^

Sometimes you gotta have the sacrificial lamb lane. It sucks to be the lamb but if you can't understand it no one can ever really help you.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

That's pretty much it. Sometimes you just have to sacrifice yourself for the good of the team. The worst thing you can do is to keep feeding if you are behind, since you end up very far behind in gold and experience. The best you can do in some cases is soak experience, get what farm you can safely, and try to be useful later in the game.

I played a game as Irelia top lane where the enemy Shaco jungle camped my lane very hard (I seriously ate 10 ganks within about 6 minutes). I played safe, built tanky (I was against Riven so I just rushed Randuin's Omen), and tried to keep up in farm and experience. My jungler took advantage of the situation to gank bot and mid, take dragons, and push towers. When he offered to help me out, I just told him to ignore me and keep winning the rest of the map. I managed to only die one time during laning phase since I kept everything warded.

SymbolicFear1 votes

Here is what I mean. When its 20 minutes in, you have ganked for every lane to keep them all alive. No towers have fallen yet, top lane is 1/8 Yi crying when they can't win against a Garen, mid lane is 6/2 Fizz who holds his own and remains calm even when he is about to get ganked by enemy team, and bot lane has 5/0 Support and a 0/5 ADC who won't stop flaming everyone... Who are you gonna help? I say that the Fizz gets the gank so he can continue to carry the falling apart team that lost before it even started.

Screaming, Raging, Crying, Excessive Pings won't make me want to help you. Stay calm, don't be a pain in the ass for the whole team, and deserve to be assisted. If I like you enough, I may even give you the kill rather than taking it for myself.

asvpmillzy1 votes

Personally, I like to let my jungler do his/her thing. I know it's difficult to balance farming, counter jungling and deciding which lane to gank so I just let them make decisions until they start making terrible ones. I like to play aggressive and shove in lanes to allow my jungler to gank elsewhere in matchups I feel confident in. If it's a matchup I'm afraid of, I just freeze it at half or outside my tower to allow a good gank.

asvpmillzy2 votes

What I cannot stand is when a jungler ganks when I am completely out of position and tower dives or engages 1v2or3 when I am a quarter-lane away and asks why I was not there or didn't help

Jus Clownin2 votes

{quoted}

What I cannot stand is when a jungler ganks when I am completely out of position and tower dives or engages 1v2or3 when I am a quarter-lane away and asks why I was not there or didn't help

The other side to this is, if you see your jungle clearing towards you perhaps you should dial it back and allow the enemy to push so everyone can be in position. So many times the laners demand us junglers be aware of whats going on in their lane, but they are absolutely oblivious to whats going on in the jungle.

Only Play Darius1 votes

I am getting tired of playing MasterYi and getting reported because I farm jungle instead of ganking, at least until level 6. Then in other games I actually try to gank pre-6 with Yi and if I end up dying, I get reported for being a trash jungler.

Now I see why no one plays Yi.

Jus Clownin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s5xRIxmr,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-05-01T02:20:52.070+0000)

I am getting tired of playing MasterYi and getting reported because I farm jungle instead of ganking, at least until level 6. Then in other games I actually try to gank pre-6 with Yi and if I end up dying, I get reported for being a trash jungler.

Now I see why no one plays Yi.

Stick to your guns. Tell them point blank that unless the enemy is pushed onto their turrets you cant come till 6. If they can't hold a lane for 6 levels then that's their fault, not yours.

The Queen Viper1 votes

There's no point to pick Yi if you want to farm your jungle... pick Udyr instead. At least you could be useful to your team as a stun-bot if your lanes are lost due to you having zero impact to the game.

However note, that you will probably lose the game if the enemy jungler has a brain and makes ganks.

So at the end of they day... if you like farming, get yourself a lane and minions to farm instead of jungle.

Only Play Darius1 votes

Yi scales much, much harder than Udyr. No one can 1v1 me late game, my build gets me to 100 true damage bonus on hit along with 2.4 attack speed. With hydra, my splitpush speed is insane.

MalaceX1 votes

You made some great points, sir. I would suggest adding suggestions in reference to Dragon and Baron. Those are key objectives many players neglect or play incorrectly.

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