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Please read: New discipline system handing out automated perma-bans

LifeCyclesTWA··25 votes·5,255 views

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/player-behavior/new-player-reform-system-heads-testing

Link above.

EDIT: I forgot to add a poll to this, but please comment below as to whether or not you agree with having a computer automatically ban you (for 2 weeks or permanently) for using keywords or phrases such as cursing, "ez", "gg ez", etc...

Also, read the comments by Lyte. You can get banned for saying things such as "gg easy" and cursing. The system recognizes keywords, so if someone reports you and you used the word "ez" during the game for example... you may find yourself getting slapped with a 2 week ban or permanent ban. You can see how false positives can occur, and in the post it mentions 1 in 6000 players will be victims of that.

Knowing that the system will now be auto-banning me for "2 weeks or permanently" within 15 minutes of a game I was reported in, I will now be muting all my teammates and disabling /all chat.

Let me tell you why.

I refuse to be provoked or harassed by low self-esteem teenagers or angry people in general. I refuse to let trolls get to me. And I refuse to attempt to communicate with solo queue teams aside from pinging. In solo queue, you are likely to rub someone the wrong way by issuing orders. I am someone that issues orders "Okay, I'm going to grab red buff then gank your lane. Try to freeze your lane or let them push" or "Lets go dragon AFTER we push down this turret guys" etc... Sometimes people listen, and sometimes they don't. And sometimes people get offended and report me. Well, not anymore. With the smart ping system in place, that is now the only communication I need.

So yeah, I foresee many threads from people angry about their 2-week+ bans in the future and people saying "blah blah you clearly did something wrong blah" without thinking that there will be false-positives. In the post it mentions 1 in 6000 bans (including permanent bans) will be false positives. How many people play this game again? lmao. Avoid the use of keywords such as "ez" or cursing or you may find yourself banned in the future.

83 Comments

AhhShucks14 votes

You should get banned for two weeks for saying "gg easy"

So working as intended

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

well i would argue that a chat restriction would be a more appropriate response over a ban.

AhhShucks3 votes

That's what the actual punishment is I'm sure. Anyone saying they got banned for 2 weeks over "gg easy" is full of it. Anyone actually getting bans has done way more than that, or they are doing that in every single game after having already gotten chat restrictions before. We've been through this song and dance before.

They will scream about how unjust it is on the forums, some rioter will smite them with their chatlogs, we will all laugh.

R11013 votes

This what a posted in a similar thread today:

Note that the 1 game permaban is only for EXTREME behaviour like a 30 minute game full of homophobic, racial, sexial slurs targetting one or multiple people. I also remember a red post were was mentioned that every 14-day/permaban is reviewed by hand.

LifeCyclesTWA5 votes

The system analyzes in-game data like chat logs, and then assesses reports and tries to "validate" the reports. In addition, every report and honor in the game is teaching the system about behaviors and what looks OK or not OK, so the system continuously learns over time. If a player shows excessive hate speech (homophobia, sexism, racism, death threats, so on) the system might hand out a permanent ban to the player for just 1 game. But, this is pretty rare! In terms of false positives, we recently flew in Player Support and Player Behavior team members from all around the world to hand-review thousands of chat logs, and we saw false positive rates in the 1 in 6000 range. So, we know the system isn't perfect, but we think the accuracy is good enough to launch.

This was a comment made by a Riot employee, Lyte and the one that person referred to.

So no, after the system is put in place bans will not be reviewed by hand any longer. Notice how it says "homophobia, sexism, racism, death threats, so on"

"so on" is where it gets tricky. Read this.

Yes, the system "validates" every report, and false reports are ignored.

made by the same Riot employee.

and

The system does not just look at words, and tries to learn phrases. In fact, "gg easy" is considered a very negative phrase by the system today.

also a quote from Lyte.

So, you can be banned for atleast 2 weeks for use of the phrase "gg easy" or other such combinations. Players/trolls will also not get in trouble for filling out false reports. If the system deems that you have used a bad combination of words, it will ignore the context and ban you for a minimum of two weeks.

R11012 votes

So, you can be banned for atleast 2 weeks for use of the phrase "gg easy" or other such combinations. Players/trolls will also not get in trouble for filling out false reports. If the system deems that you have used a bad combination of words, it will ignore the context and ban you for a minimum of two weeks.

It doesn't say that "gg easy" will get you a 14-day ban, he says "gg easy" is a very negative phrase but it doesn't mention the punishment connected to the phrase.

"homophobia, sexism, racism, death threats, so on"

What would you think if the "so on" was replaced with "etc"? Because I think it refers to phrases that are as severe as death threats, racism, homophobia that he had not listed within his sentence.

I think the system is pretty safe as you can still file a support ticket if you think you are incorrectly punished as your case will be manually reviewed.

Jefftiffy2 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't say that "gg easy" will get you a 14-day ban, he says "gg easy" is a very negative phrase but it doesn't mention the punishment connected to the phrase.

What would you think if the "so on" was replaced with "etc"? Because I think it refers to phrases that are as severe as death threats, racism, homophobia that he had not listed within his sentence.

I think the system is pretty safe as you can still file a support ticket if you think you are incorrectly punished as your case will be manually reviewed.

Problem with computers. No way to tell context.

team takes baron in ally chat "GG easy". This in no way effects the enemy team. Dies to red buff "GG easy". Automated systems based solely off words do not work.

So now I can't joke around and have fun making fun of toxic people or my own mistakes in the game without having a chance of being banned because a computer doesn't know context. This game just got 10x less fun because now I have to mute my team every game instead of maybe joking around or relaying information.

Z Statistic4 votes

I'm pretty sure if you say gg ez in allied chat, the system knows you're not beating down anyone.

But the thing you're ignoring is that:

  1. The system can learn; it teaches itself.
  2. You can always appeal a punishment.
Jefftiffy3 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty sure if you say gg ez in allied chat, the system knows you're not beating down anyone.

But the thing you're ignoring is that:

  1. The system can learn; it teaches itself.
  2. You can always appeal a punishment.

A system can learn to a point. A system can't understand sacrasm or jokes. A system cannot tell context. A system weighs what is it told against trends in bans. So if someone says something that even seems to get banned decently for but is an extremely common word or phrase or even related to a champ name (ez for instance) it cannot tell what to do and if it can it may just default to flagging it which is bad.

Tribunal was fine and it got rid of a lot of toxic people, it just needed to operate maybe on 1 week period instead of sometimes up to a month to ban people. Automation for things that evovle with time does not work and will fail. The degree of failure is completely dependant on how well the system is written.

STFU is often used as an insult, or it can be used as a joke. Tell me how does a system know context? It doesn't if it can on its own decide someone is banned before passing it to a real human then Riot is going to have tons of players leave the game or stop playing due to fear of being banned for stuff they shouldn't be when the rules are not clearly stated to begin with.

Plus there is a chat filter in the game to remove profanity, but we can be banned for using it while it has been stated it is acceptable. And also profanity does not always show the degree of anger when it is so common now. I understand the bans for hate speech as they should be, but the problem is it is a computer. Computers only compute. They cannot analyze a full situation only what they are told.

Z Statistic1 votes

Probably the same way you know it's a joke?

How do you know it's just a joke? Take that answer and apply it to computers. Any limitation in the learning of a robot can be lifted or loosened with tweaking from a human. You're being limited by your preconception of what computers can and can't do. The reason MTurk exists is because it's extremely cheap and versatile. Riot doesn't need a versatile system, just one that can identify things based on what humans (us, the tribunal) have told it and then continue to learn and teach itself about the subject.

Phero1 votes

{quoted}

Probably the same way you know it's a joke?

How do you know it's just a joke? Take that answer and apply it to computers. Any limitation in the learning of a robot can be lifted or loosened with tweaking from a human. You're being limited by your preconception of what computers can and can't do. The reason MTurk exists is because it's extremely cheap and versatile. Riot doesn't need a versatile system, just one that can identify things based on what humans (us, the tribunal) have told it and then continue to learn and teach itself about the subject.

You have conflicting statements, first you say the system doesn't need to be versatile and then you go on saying how it will teach itself and learn information about a subject.

A system that looks at what people are banning for, taking that data and applying it does not need to be very smart, agreed.

A system that stops getting help from humans, basically it stops getting the answers handed to it and it has to start coming up with the answers itself, does INDEED need to be quite smart. Impossibly smart in fact. It would take some kind of true AI to do that job and neither you or me will get to experience that.

Z Statistic1 votes
  1. Riot's system can detect when someone is being toxic or not. That's it. MTurk can fill out surveys, tag porn, count blood cells, and do pretty much everything because it's run by humans not a computer. A computer that can teach itself one thing is not versatile. Versatility does not imply intelligence.
  2. There are already robots that can make art indistinguishable from art made by humans, perform 99% of a lawyer's job, do all sorts of manual labor people look at interns for, do mathematical analysis, perform research, and teach itself how to better perform those things. The reason you don't see them everywhere is because they are still highly specialized and extremely expensive if not irreplaceable.

Unless the two of us are going to die in 10 years, I'm sorry but it's already popping up.

Phero1 votes

{quoted}

Unless the two of us are going to die in 10 years, I'm sorry but it's already popping up.

That's what they said 20 years ago. Plenty of people argue that true AI is unattainable and it is in no way "popping up" anywhere.

In any case, what Riot has is a dumb database with algorithms determining your level of perceived "toxicity", using that to calculate a perceived appropriate punishment.... Based on data gathered and sorted by humans. It's not ever gonna "learn" anything on its own.

junglerboy162 votes

Technology is NOWHERE near as perceptive as the human mind when it comes to the subtleties of language, humor, and communication. It has made leaps and bounds from where you used to need to input information directly as binary code, but it is not advanced enough to tell sarcasm like a human mind can. That's the reason things like Captcha/ReCaptcha still work against automated programs (not exactly, but it is similar enough). Even the IBM super computer Watson struggles to comprehend any sort of human sarcasm or dead pan humor, and that is one of the most advanced systems in the world in terms of interfacing directly with humans on a communicative self improving way (and far outside Riot's budget from what I know).

DrCyanide3 votes

Unless I'm mistaken, you need a report to even trigger the automated system. If you said something in ally chat and an ally didn't report you, it's pretty doubtful that will be counted against you.

Likewise, if you said "gg ez", Ezreal says "ty", and you both honor each other afterwards, you've helped teach the system that it's OK in that situation.

If you are worried about being picked up as a false positive, then it's probably a decent sign that you might be using humor that all involved might not find humorous.

ModUlanopo2 votes

Riot has always said that punishments are triggered by a combination of intensity and frequency. Intensity is how toxic an individual behavior is. Throw out that really nasty stuff (the stuff mentioned above) and it takes very few incidents to earn you a ban.

On the other end of the spectrum, less intense but more frequent bad behavior will also earn you a ban.

Sona Ping7 votes

Considering that a person was perma-banned for goofing around with stuttering Sion's ult in a game with the automated system claiming it was "hacking", I would be far, far more skeptical of any claims to the accuracy of a Riot automated behavior system.

SerBlaise6 votes

I see no problem with this system. I see no problems with you muting your teammates if you are personally unable to handle any and all things that someone might say to you in better form and more class.

I will definitely consider reporting you if you are one of thise 'gg ez' players, because I find it extremely negative and not conducive to sportsmanlike behavior.

rinsujo3 votes

Devil's advocate here. And If I as a support want to congratulate my Ezreal on a game well played?

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb5 votes

don't say it in all chat. I can't imagine that your allies care if you say it in ally chat. It's when you gg ez in all chat, that it carries a very specific meaning, and it's most certainly not to congratulate your teammate.

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

The machine will learn that if there is an ezreal in the game "gg ez" is not necessarily toxic because a majority of the time it is used in that situation the person isn't reported.

Nameless Voice1 votes

Generally, you would be saying "wp Ez" anyway, not "gg Ez". Because telling Ezeal that it was a good game doesn't mean much, but telling him that he played well does.

JustMyBassCannon4 votes

Everyone who shortens Ezreal's name in chat is going to be really fucking pissed.

Also, there's a setting so you can turn on censoring. If you're offended by swears, turn it on; if not, turn it off and don't be surprised when you see shit.

rinsujo6 votes

But what if I see fuck?

qetzel2 votes

Swear words (unless they are spammed or next to words like "retard") are not going to be on the list of bad words. Lyte has confirmed in the past that swearing is allowed. We are old enough, after all (at least, we are according to the TOS we signed).

KING ATTILA4 votes

How the fuck is this going to improve gameplay? We already have a system that can't differentiate between bugsplat and intentional DC. We already have a MUTE option in case we don't like what anyone has to say.

Now because players don't know how to utilize a mute option, Riot makes a system that can roll out automatic bans?

This is bullshit. So tired of Riot trying to micro manage player behavior...

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb2 votes

The issue is that while people can use the mute button, it takes one chat message to piss people right the fuck off. I had a vi blow up on me a few days ago because I didn't follow up on a gank properly. I had about 1/3 hp on malz, and was about out of mana, and the target was a kat. I saw that she was coming, but I didn't want to get killed for it by a qwe ignite. Nobody died. Nothing was blown. The gank failed, but we didn't lose anything for it.

The first thing she did was get on all caps and start screaming about how she wasn't going to gank my lane anymore cause I don't follow up. (if you don't know, malz sucks ass at follow up until he hits 6. After that, he makes free on a 90s cd. Wait for malz 6.) She called me a trasher after that. I went off on her, and she shut up for a while, before later bitching out our bot lane as well. I could have muted her, but that first message really set the tone for that game. Mute button does nothing for that.

We lost that game. We had no one but Vi to engage, and she sure as hell wasn't in any mental state to do it properly, or at all. She was one of the most toxic players I've seen in months. Muting doesn't save that game. Muting doesn't fix the problems. Muting sweeps it under the rug.

Phero2 votes

[{quoted}](name=hgjkdlsaf jeldvb,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T5BmHx75,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2015-05-21T21:06:20.599+0000)

The issue is that while people can use the mute button, it takes one chat message to piss people right the fuck off. I had a vi blow up on me a few days ago because I didn't follow up on a gank properly. I had about 1/3 hp on malz, and was about out of mana, and the target was a kat. I saw that she was coming, but I didn't want to get killed for it by a qwe ignite. Nobody died. Nothing was blown. The gank failed, but we didn't lose anything for it.

The first thing she did was get on all caps and start screaming about how she wasn't going to gank my lane anymore cause I don't follow up. (if you don't know, malz sucks ass at follow up until he hits 6. After that, he makes free on a 90s cd. Wait for malz 6.) She called me a trasher after that. I went off on her, and she shut up for a while, before later bitching out our bot lane as well. I could have muted her, but that first message really set the tone for that game. Mute button does nothing for that.

We lost that game. We had no one but Vi to engage, and she sure as hell wasn't in any mental state to do it properly, or at all. She was one of the most toxic players I've seen in months. Muting doesn't save that game. Muting doesn't fix the problems. Muting sweeps it under the rug.

That problem isn't caused by someone being rude in chat. She would still have been pissed at you had you never said a word the entire game. It was the interaction or lack thereof in lane that caused her to go off the rails. In her mind she was making a play and in your mind she wanted you to take unnecessary risks. Who was right or wrong is near impossible to tell, even if we saw a replay of the game.

You think that will change because people are getting 14 day timeouts?

Misunderstandings will happen, especially amongst competitive players and ESPECIALLY amongst competitive players clashing with non-competitive "it's just a game"-players.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb2 votes

misunderstandings happen, however, most players don't rage like that. There's no excuse to immediately bitch people out because they didn't follow up properly. Again, this set the mood for the match. And her frustration was later sent toward bottom lane. Literally everything she said was mildly to extremely negative.

Stray Kat4 votes

I dunno what everyone is worried about. I've played for a couple seasons now. NEVER had any restrictions, no chat bans, etc. As long as you act like a mature human being you have nothing to worry about.

Otherwise, if you're the ragey sort - It's a game, if you're not having fun you're wasting your time and should probably re-think what game you want to play.

A Sexy Goldfish4 votes

[deleted]

ApexInTheCircle2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captain Positive,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T5BmHx75,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2015-05-21T21:01:15.933+0000)

Hi There!! Captain Positive reporting for duty!!! So I would not recommend muting everyone, not chatting at all, and then only using smart pings. I once had 800 bans and did an experiment as described in this post here!

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/hxdeEfsL-strategies-to-overcome-chat-bans

Tl;dr I went 800 games without saying a single word, only using smart pings to communicate with my team. After the 800 bans I had 2 games of freedom and recieved 458 more. I'd also like to let you know that the entire 800 games, I averaged getting reported for verbal abuse 1 out of 3 games due to my personal records. And that's only when you get notified, there are many other reasons you can get reported for that won't always notify you.

Best of luck in your fight against the automated system!!! Just remember that Riot is perfect and everything they do is amazing!!! Stay annoyingly positive my friends!

Sounds alot like VAC bans on steam. You're guilty because you are, and nothing you say will make you unguilty. I feel like that's what this system is going to do.

Clockwork Madoka3 votes

Honestly, I don't use offensive language(I do use "swears" and make bad puns, but never in a negative way), but would it be wise to assume early that positive uses of vulgar words could trigger a form of punishment? (-word- YEAH!/ Holy -word-!, nice grab!/ that game was fun as -word-)

I'm someone who uses some of this a little too liberally.

Duke Anax3 votes

Swearing is not forbidden. The system allegedly recognises when those kinda words are used in a non negative way.

GundayMonday6 votes

Yeah, Riot's player behavior skynet is pretty damn advanced and has something ridiculous like a 0.001% false positive rate. The team is always happy to review findings too, just to be safe.

You can see more here: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022160/More-Science-Behind-Shaping-Player

CudyDarkyz3 votes

Sejuani-hey ez want red buff?

Ezreal-WHAT DID YOU JUST SAY REPORTED!

item 3070 Sejuani item 3070

ChewTobacco3 votes

How about you don't be a douche and say "GG easy" and you won't get banned

Worst Mid Ever3 votes

I've never understood the player behavior teams goals, the main problem with player toxicity in this game isn't to do with chat but rather griefing.

Mazianos2 votes

What if you have an Ezreal in your game and you refer to him as ez while nexus explodes, saying "GG ez" because you enjoyed laning with or against him? Would that be considered as negative?

Project Riven2 votes

I really wish they ban me for some stupid reason, so I can finally quit this damn game. The game itself is toxic, never mind just the player base.

Yosuke Apperu4 votes

Why can't you just quit the game on your own accord?

CudyDarkyz6 votes

http://ct.fra.bz/ol/fz/sw/i48/5/4/3/frabz-One-does-not-simply-Stop-playing-League-of-Legends-c000a3.jpg

3TWarrior2 votes

okay, and here's another issue for players such as myself, if it is now an automated system reviewing game stats, a lot of players such as myself are having sever lag issues and frequently disconnecting most of a game or for large portions of this...is this system going to mistakenly review this as trolling or ragequit leaving, "so on?"

Cuz19723 votes

LeaveBuster has been in place for a while.

Arcade Andrew2 votes

A 1 in 6000 false positive now makes me ever more convinced that my chat restrictions and ranked restrictions ive gotten -past my 2 week ban in which slumberjack TOLD ME personally here on the forums, that if my behavior didn't improve id get perma banned

ever since then ive been ranked and chat restricted twice, the first two times I sent support tickets in (with evidence) knowing I got reported by trolls, but they gave me some lame automated response and refused to show me my chat logs, same thing happened the second time, except in the second time I replied requesting further help, never got an email- instead they closed my ticket and sent me the follow up request asking me to do a survery about my experience

I didnt even bother trying to send in a ticket this time Im just going to do what you do, mute my team members and turn all chat off and hope that I dont get reported for "refusing to communicate with team" and/or reported for having bad games

Star PlatinumELO2 votes

now there is one thing you did wrong there; you stopped sending in tickets; if you don't stop sending them you will get a real reply eventually.

Death by Wukong2 votes

Would spamming your champs laugh be considered negative to the system?

Akesgeroth2 votes

I curse like a sailor with his balls trapped in a toaster and have never been banned.

YvieZileanOddly2 votes

Isn't banning someone for saying "gg ez" a bit extreme? Yeah it's rude and bad manners, but it should take more than just being rude to get banned. I'd imagine you'd need to say some seriously vulgar stuff for that, not just bad sportsmsnship. I mean seriously, you guys dound like a bunch of angry soccer moms. This isn't a play date.

I never say gg ez, and I don't care when someone else does. Just move on. I'm honestly worried about you if it bothers you that much.

XinZhao2WinNhao3 votes

{quoted}

Isn't banning someone for saying "gg ez" a bit extreme? Yeah it's rude and bad manners, but it should take more than just being rude to get banned. I'd imagine you'd need to say some seriously vulgar stuff for that, not just bad sportsmsnship. I mean seriously, you guys dound like a bunch of angry soccer moms. This isn't a play date.

I never say gg ez, and I don't care when someone else does. Just move on. I'm honestly worried about you if it bothers you that much.

i agree.

the system needs to also differentiate those who are punished for trolling and being a jerk and those who respond to jerks.

I'm not a saint, I'm human. I can only turn the other cheek a set amount of times. If someone calls me a fucking loser every game and tells me to uninstall for long enough, eventually I'm gonna say "f u". Not because I'm a toxic player but because I'm human. You shouldn't be punished for that.

Also, in real life, there is regular trash talk. It's not good, but shouldn't anyone over 13 (which is the intended audience of LoL) know how to deal with it? If you work in an office, and someone calls you a "douche bag" once you don't go running to your boss to tell on him. You just ignore him and move on. If it becomes a repeated thing, then you tell your boss.

They need to deal with the real issues like repeated harassment differently from one dude saying "Gg ez" once.

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