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Why I Will Never Gank for a Feeder

LifeCyclesTWA·5/17/2015, 6:41:03 AM·99 votes·8,632 views

Most people will read the title and get offended, possibly auto down-vote before reading. Allow me to explain myself though.

Bounty values First Blood: 400 gold 1st kill: 300 gold 1st death: 300 gold 2nd kill: 350 gold 2nd death: 275 gold 3rd kill: 408 gold (Killing spree) 3rd death: 220 gold 4th kill: 475 gold (Rampage) 4th death: 176 gold 5th kill: 500 gold (Unstoppable) 5th death: 141 gold 6th kill: 500 gold (Dominating) 6th death: 112 gold 7th kill: 500 gold (Godlike) 7th death: 90 gold 8th kill: 500 gold (Legendary) 8th death: 72 gold 9+ kills: 500 gold (Legendary) 9th death: 58 gold Notes :

That gold values will continue to drop past the 9th death, eventually stopping at 50 gold. Also, with lower killing spree bounty cap and increased bounty gain, there is no additional gold for a shut down beyond the 5th kill. Every 1000 gold earned from minions / monsters reduces the death spree by 1 death. Kills are worth 75% of the base reward during the first 2 minutes of the game, scaling to 100% at 4 minutes. The bonus 100 gold gained from First Blood is not affected by this penalty

Everyone starts at 0. Think of kills as positives and deaths as negatives. If you are in the positive and die, you are brought back to point 0. If you are in the negative and land a kill, you are brought back to point 0.

Also note that earning gold from minions reduces your death spree but doesn't raise your killing spree. That was implemented as a nerf to Proxy Singed who would allow himself to die to point when he was worth less gold than a minion when killed, but farmed so damn much he was fed from farm. Look up "DruidDroid Singed" He is the best Singed player of all time.

If you die 5 straight times to your lane opponent and are 0-5, you have given up a total of 1,112 gold to the other laner. It is actually better for you to not get kills. A teammate that is 4-4 and has traded evenly has given the other team 1200 gold. Once you are behind in kills, it is best to focus on assists and building defense. Why is this? Because if you get a kill and die 5 more times, you just gave up another 1,112 gold, whereas if you just continued to die you would have given up only 382 gold. This makes a huge difference. That is why that guy that goes 17-12-10 is actually a feeder. Chances are he actually gave the other team more gold from killing him than he actually got from 17 kills of killing them. That is why the people that go 10-10 or 8-8 whatever are the worst kind of players. I would take an 0-8-20 teammate over a 10-8-10 teammate any day, because the 10-8-10 teammate fed extremely hard. and contributed to the same amount of kills as the 0-8-20 guy.

So yeah, if you are feeding your lane, I am not going to help you get a kill. Sorry top, if you suck you suck... and if you are getting camped top then that is awesome because I'll be camping bottom and getting our ADC fed and grabbing dragon's while their jungler is spending their time dicking around with you. Best case scenario you are worth only 50 gold to the enemy team and aren't even worth killing anymore, I'm going to let the other team kick your dick in while I camp bot and mid and get our carries fed.

ALSO!!!: Don't be so hard on your feeding teammate. Even if they died 20 straight times to the other laner without getting a single kill or assist they only gave up a total of 1994 gold. That is manageable. The guy that went 10-10 gave up 3000 gold, but you don't call him a feeder?

EDIT: Sorry for the long post. But people are getting the impression I don't gank a fed lane because of bounties... but that is only part of it. I'm just trying to say that there is a point where I consider a lane lost and I put my efforts towards snowballing other lanes. If I spend time helping some dude play catch up, chances are the other jungler will take that opportunity to set my other lanes back as well.

My strategy is that I am willing to sacrifice an already-lost lane for the betterment of the other 2.

122 Comments

Phero5/17/2015, 7:12:38 AM64 votes

The interesting point you make is about the nature of feeding. The vast majority of players in this game will defend a score such as 10/10/2 as much better than 2/0/8

A bad Kata player with 20/18/4 will still think that she carried something other than AIDS for her team.

Worst Mid Ever5/17/2015, 11:21:32 AM15 votes

you're not factoring in lost map pressure and the dragons, towers and teamfights you will lose because of it, also 1112g is worth nothing compared to a laner who gets completely zoned and loses 2-3 levels on their opponent, the best strategy is to gank their lane, take the kill and help them take their tower early so they can push and leave lane to farm jungle or gank to get back in the game, the only time i would ever even consider cutting a lane loose is if its top lane and the person getting fed is a tank that can't really solo carry, or anyone who doesn't have tp

Sona Ping5/17/2015, 7:55:40 AM14 votes

It's something often overlooked by many players, the value of the kills and deaths are often not considered so good job on bringing it up for discussion. Players should know about this and keep it mind for the next time a someone is waving around their kill count but is ignorant of their deaths or how their constant going 1-for-1 isn't helping anyone, or even assisting the enemy.

You are correct that there is a point at which the effort to help a lane will outweigh the benefit from doing so. There are times where the jungler should do other things and the laner should just get through the laning phase the best he can. However, you didn't address a few things which should be.

"It is actually better for you to not get kills... Once you are behind in kills, it is best to focus on assists and building defense. "

You wrote to "focus on assists and defense" but the rest of what you have written does not acknowledge that assists do raise the value of the champion when they die by a level, it's not just direct kills. A second is that deaths are only a ~20% reduction in gold after the first, and the enemy receiving less than a mere 50 gold less than the last death is not enough to justify not preventing another. Further, an enemy laner who is snowballing may need to be dealt with and the allied laner can often provide enough support to do so. In line of what Anarchit3cht wrote, frequently just a gank can reset a lane, especially if the opponent was slain even when the laner only got the assist.

My Desired Name5/17/2015, 3:59:57 PM7 votes

This is interesting. I've always noticed that 10/10 players usually lose games, and 0/10 players still make the game winnable. Now I know why, thanks to this post.

Arcane Azmadi5/17/2015, 7:50:28 AM6 votes

3rd rule of jungling: never gank a losing lane (not a BADLY losing lane anyway). Just call triage on it ("triage" = "fuck it dude, you're on your own") and go do something useful instead.

Malix Farwin5/17/2015, 7:55:01 AM5 votes

OMG this soooo much, i cant stand it when i get people who are like "i am carrying hard i am 15-15-5". Yea you may be able to do something to the enemy but the rest of your team cant do shit to that person.

Ace Access 5/17/2015, 9:38:18 AM4 votes

great post, now I know more about this game :D

this explains a lot on why I get more gold gold killing people with more kills than people who got zero kills

Gati5/18/2015, 1:48:27 AM4 votes

most top players: Omg I lost a trade let me spam pings _ dies a minute later_ /All GG no ganks spams pings as soon as he gets to lane Me: k on my way Dies before I get there and blames it on me proceeds to feed and goes 0/5 at 10 minutes /All report jungles no ganks GG GOD I hate those people

Cosnirak5/17/2015, 5:55:12 PM3 votes

Don't forget though that the experience difference from the kills becomes a factor. As well as the gold from farm missed due to deaths and potentially objectives. A kill is rarely JUST a kill. When your top laner dies in a 1v1 the enemy tends to get a worth while advantage from that even if it's the 5th time it has happened that game. Your top will be down CS and levels. Your top turrets will fall. They'll steal your jungle creeps. You'll lose control of vision in that part of the map.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying you should go gank for them all the time in those situations. I'm just saying it's a lot more complicated than gold from kills and so SOMETIMES it's worth doing more than just leaving that lane alone. Imagine your top lane is 0-5 and theirs is 5-0. If you go top and kill the enemy laner and your top gets the assist it's EXTREMELY profitable. You get 500 gold for the kill, your top laner gets 250 gold and counts as 0-4 if they die again. Waiting to fight that enemy top laner in a team fight after they're 8-0 still only nets your team 750 gold total if you kill them and is far more likely to turn out bad for your team. Of course if you go to gank them when it's 0-5 vs 5-0 and it all goes wrong and you give them a double while not killing them... yeah that's obviously awful.

tl;dr It's A LOT more complicated than your post makes it seem. There are no hard rules as to whether or not you should gank a lane. But yeah, mostly trying to gank for lanes that are way behind isn't worth it.

ZeeDrakon5/17/2015, 8:13:13 AM3 votes

Havent they implemented that kill vountys cant drop below 150 gold?

But i agree with you for difderent reasons.#1 you cant 2v2. If you get counterganked your fucked incredibly hard #2 if someone feed and isnt just slightly behind, 1 kill wont fet him ahead and i wont camp a losing lane

bvcderrttyyhjjjk5/18/2015, 4:19:23 PM2 votes

I honestly think that the gold is not the biggest problem about feeders, but the big one IMO is the enemy laner gets a huge level advantage, and level advantage is HUGE. So many times I murdered 2 people having bought only one item when they had three, just because I was a couple levels ahead. (I know it's not optimal, but I often recall when I finally notice that I have like 5k gold :/ ). Until very late game when everyone gets to lv. 18, the enemy laner will have like 3 levels advantage, allowing him to come out of his lane and utterly stomp anyone, because he gottons of kills and free farm. That is the MAIN reason why feeders screw the team over TBH. Not really gold, actually XP and levels.

Dunkrius2g5/17/2015, 12:35:51 PM2 votes

Real TL;DR: If Laner has 1 death, u can arrange s.th for him. If he is past, 3-5 leave him alone, and focus other lanes instead. He's worth shit by now. And if he's a champion that brings a LOT of pressure and take towers but during so, dies? and gives out 50g? Well at least he is doing something.

D1rtFarmer5/17/2015, 1:28:14 PM2 votes

so what you're saying is... you segregate your team cause you're obviously captain deciding who should be helped or not.

Gwellaouen5/17/2015, 4:26:56 PM2 votes

I got one game when Singed top-lane had a very difficult time against Tryndamere. I began by helping him, froze the lane after he died, push the lane ... At one point, I said that we need dragon. It was near 12 minutes in game too. We got this dragon and others too later. I never thrash talk that Singed, Ever. Everyone has his bad games. I ever helped him getting a shut down on Tryndamere. We won that game. ^^

Draven Wun Trick5/17/2015, 5:12:03 PM2 votes

VERY informative and refreshing post. thumbs up!

TurquoiseYoshi5/17/2015, 8:58:32 PM2 votes

I'm kinda confused. Even if somebody goes 10-10, and gives up 3000 gold, doesn't he get 3000 gold as well? Meaning it's just a trade in gold? This isn't meant to be hate or sound like hate, I'm just really confused on this logic.

mack91125/18/2015, 12:54:25 AM1 votes

While I do agree with many of your points I do feel that the use of some of your terminology is a rather poor choice. I am 100% confident If we as players worded things in a far more positive tone we would have far more enjoyable games. Saying things like ' feeder ' just adds fuel to fire that should never gave gotten going in the first place.

Jefftiffy5/17/2015, 4:20:40 PM1 votes

Hate to tell you the 8/8/8 player aren't really feeding more. They died the same number of times and have probably earned more gold than their opponents. And if anything the 0/8/16 player should be on the same footing for the team not better. Why? Because they both had a 16 kill participation, meaning that they should be worth the same amount. Meaning that making someone 8/8/8 should not make them worth more than a 0/8/16.

You are complaining about a flaw in the system that supports tend to abuse. (reason why supports try to avoid killing and die for their carry and why they tend to be worth less gold while having more gold or equal to "feeders").

Gavran5/17/2015, 2:16:34 PM1 votes

You're hugely undervaluing the relevance of experience leads and the fact that someone getting stomped can't farm or defend their tower, especially when their opponent has zero reason to fear you coming.