New assassin item will make Talon more cancer than he is

DropFill·Feb 3, 2016·44 votes·3,249 views

Pretty much because talon either assassinates you with nearly no counterplay OR he is just useless.

60 Comments

WoonStruckFeb 3, 201614 votes

That's the point. All of the assassins that can kill without this item, or kill too consistently with this item, will get heavily nerfed until this item is their crutch. It will even the playing-field between assassins and allow Riot to balance their meta by adjusting a single, universal assassin lever.

The best part is how Riven will somehow manage to be a part of this, most likely. It will be wonderful.

SH AzykanFeb 3, 20164 votes

riven is honestly one I am scared of with the item. She can trade consistently without autos, then all in you with the item passive to help execute on her combo. It will be a pretty strong rush on her I feel since it is in the higher AD bracket and gives Armor pen on top of it.

FjiordorFeb 3, 20162 votes

No she cant trade without her autos and she really needs other items to get first.

SH AzykanFeb 3, 20162 votes

in lane she can trade with Q>Q>W>Q>E away. then next time they are off cd throw in an auto for the nightfall proc and since she is very likely lv6 by then her ult execute will finish them off for sure

OrangesilkFeb 3, 201612 votes

A Riven that's not canceling her abilities with autos might as well be playing Nami top for all the damage she's dealing.

Chaotic ReksFeb 3, 201611 votes

are you saying AP Nami does no damage? Because you're wrong there

SH AzykanFeb 3, 20162 votes

I'm talking about for 1 trade right after she gets the item or is about to come off cd. People are acting like I said she is no longer allowed to auto ever.

WoonStruckFeb 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

A Riven that's not canceling her abilities with autos might as well be playing Nami top for all the damage she's dealing.

Riven also has an extremely fast combo, including autos, that will leave almost anyone wondering what happened with this item.

FastAsHeckFeb 3, 20161 votes

umm no half of her damage is weaving in autos and using that passive

Sypher The PoroFeb 3, 20162 votes

Riven main here, I just want to point out you lose a ton of damage if you can't do the Fast Q combo in lane. At level 1 her passive scales with 0.25 AD so without fast Q you lose about 60-70 flat damage.

Not only that but her full burst combo usually deletes squishies faster than the item procs, with Riven not even using an auto until the end of the combo so the proc wouldn't even go off.

I might build it once or twice for fun, but other items are way more important for a full build.

It also doesn't give CDR

SH AzykanFeb 3, 20161 votes

but you would still be using your autos for trading until you got this item and while it is on cd. Once you get this item though you can do a quick non auto trade just to get some extra damage (generally without taking much back because your trade is quicker) then all in them afterwards witht hte items effect.

You definitely don't want it as a rush in all lane matchups because yeah it gives no cdr and is a little expensive. But it gives her way more kill potential on champs like Malphite or Cho'gath who get really beefy and you might not be able to fully burst out.

Sypher The PoroFeb 4, 20161 votes

The Fast Q combo is not only the hardest Riven cancel to learn, but the most important for winning trades. Here's some math (Please note I am rounding for funky numbers):

Level 6 in lane I usually have item 3133 and sometimes item 3158 if I got a kill. Riven's base AD is 51 with 3 AD per level, I run another 9 AD in runes. So level 6 my AD would be: 51 (+18) (+25) (+9) = 103

Riven's passive has a 0.25 AD scaling that bumps up to 0.5 at level 18, scaling at about 0.014 per level. Level 6: 0.25 (+0.07) = 0.32 or 32% of your AD. Now, in a full engage I will ult FIRST so I get the 20% bonus AD. Add that to toal: ~124 AD 124 * 0.32 = ~40 damage. Now multiply that x3 for each auto done in the Fast Q: 120

If you do not auto while trading you lose about 100 damage. In a full engage 120 damage.

Let's say my opponent is Gangplank : Has base HP at level 6 is 908. I lose almost 10% of his HP in damage if I don't auto.

Not worth it for the chance of a little extra damage.

But overall the pros of the item on Riven do not out-way the cons.

Pros: -Great passive -75 AD -10 flat Armor Pen -Movespeed

Cons: -No CDR -No Lifesteal -Passive has a long CD (120 seconds) -No defensive stats

Why should I get it when I could get something else? Here is an example of my usual Riven build (In order of purchase): item 3142 item 1333 item 3812 item 3074 item 3139 item 3156

I will trade item 3139 for item 3072 if their team has low CC and trade item 3156 for item 3742 if there is a lot of AD damage.

In the event of a tanky team, item 3071 instead of item 3142 and item 3812 using the extra slot for a defensive item.

But my point is, I don't have room in the build for the new AD item. I would have to sacrifice CDR, which is Riven's most important stat, or build it really late into the build replacing a defensive item. As for targeting a beefy champion, I help my team more by flashing and deleting the enemy AP or AD carry rather than playing the front lane and being unable to use abilities due to CC.

SH AzykanFeb 4, 20161 votes

I meant you would be laning against the beefy champion. being able to kill a cho'gath outright is really hard for riven if she didnt murder him early to snowball. This item might give her the means to do so giving you HUGE side lane control. Rushing a yomuu's vs cho isnt generally the most effective choice. Getting item 3133 then the new item, then finish the warhammer into a black cleaver would probably be better (at least I feel it would be). And you can still get away with the triple or quadra longsword rush.

Against a gangplank, you want more efficient early build damage, so of course you want to go with yomuu's. Because you are going to blow him up anyways with your real combo when you get on top of him.

Sypher The PoroFeb 4, 20161 votes

Cho'Gath isn't that bad in lane unless he rushes a lot of armor. Most Cho's tend to go for RoA first. While you may be thinking "But Cho has a Silence and Riven ducks against any silences" that is only party true. His silence does hurt and is annoying, but unless he gets in Melee range his only other damage spell is Q which is the most telegraphed spell in the game.

But, as Riven I run flash and TP. If I get an enemy who I struggle to beat in lane, I save TP to get bot lane for at least an assist or two.

Regardless I don't want to build a situational item that will help me for maybe the first 15 minutes of the lane before it becomes useless and I waste a good 1500 gold.

DropFillFeb 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The Fast Q combo is not only the hardest Riven cancel to learn, but the most important for winning trades. Here's some math (Please note I am rounding for funky numbers):

Sorry, but fast canceling Q is not as hard as you say it is.

Sypher The PoroFeb 4, 20161 votes

Let me re-phrase that. The Fast Q is the hardest combo to do reliably in a fight.

Thus is an explanation of Fast Q:

Place your cursor on enemy.
Use Q
While in the animation for Q, click on the ground and then click on the enemy.
Repeat.

It sounds easy right? Maybe so, but doing it in combat is a lot harder than it looks. If your mouse isn't on the target, you will Quote through them instead of on them which has a much longer animation.

MatarraFeb 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

riven is honestly one I am scared of with the item. She can trade consistently without autos, then all in you with the item passive to help execute on her combo. It will be a pretty strong rush on her I feel since it is in the higher AD bracket and gives Armor pen on top of it.

"trade consistantly without auto's" yeah if she wants to do 0 damage she can do that. The item is also expensive while offering zero CDR.

LauchmelderFeb 3, 20168 votes

"I am the Law-ngsword!" Damn Dante, that Video doesn't want to leave my mind <.< ("/r/talonmains")

Chaotic ReksFeb 3, 20162 votes

"LONG SWORDS ARE THE KEY!"

KillerKellFeb 4, 20161 votes

I am a STEGOSAURUS!

IcyPepperFeb 3, 20167 votes

To be fair, one could say Talon has more counterplay than Zed :/

Only Play DariusFeb 3, 20166 votes

No he doesn't lmao what are you smoking?

IcyPepperFeb 3, 201610 votes

Well, depends on how you look at it.

Certainly easier to counterbuild (QSS, zhonyas, etc) Zed, though. Both are likely to blow up a squishy in a teamfight, but Talon is definitely easier to punish than Zed is.

Duskblade is going to make both of them annoying, though.

SpongebobIsLifeFeb 3, 20162 votes

ah I see what you're saying, I don't think counter play was the word you were looking for though .

IcyPepperFeb 4, 20161 votes

I thought punishing champions was a part, but not the whole thing, of counterplay? o.O

doombotMECHAFeb 3, 20162 votes

talon's way less safe than zed is, though. if he effs up a murder and eats hard cc he dies. if zed effs up and eats a stun odds are he still gets the kill. Zed's mobility also makes him better at teamfighting when he has to.

talon snowballs harder tho, and a really incredible talon can use his ult as a psuedo-rengar if the enemy squish is in the right/wrong place.

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 4, 20161 votes

Zed engages on you in plain view, and you have the luxury to know exactly where he will land. And as you said their are items that make his assassination attempt pointless.

Talon engages through stealth, with no warning and is much harder to Zhonyas.

I swear some people just look for what ever champion of a specific role is played the least and just labels them healthy.

IcyPepperFeb 4, 20161 votes

I swear some people just look for what ever champion of a specific role is played the least and just labels them healthy.

I hope I didn't come across that way, but you do bring up a fair point.

I guess that makes them distinct from one another. You can see Zed coming, but he's definitely slippier after he catches you. If Talon starts with his ult, he's a lot easier to punish after he blows up a target (in teamfights, I mean). Although if Talon ends with his ult, it could be a getaway, then again Zed has more mobility and a more reliable (early game) resource...

Although what defines a healthy assassin? I've heard a few definitions, so what's your's?

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 4, 20161 votes

One that at least gives you a chance. With Zed you know where he will land and you know what his death mark will do. With Talon its basically a stat check of hope he doesn't have enough to kill me in single rotation.

As much as everyone hates to hear it, I can't think of an assassin that gives you as much chance to fight back as Zed. He's the only one that doesn't rely on just simply being able to burst you down as quickly as possible and the only one with even the slightest bit of consistency. You always know where he is going to land once using death mark, and you always know when his ult will kill, this is alot more information than most assassins give you.

Romans VI XXIIIFeb 3, 20165 votes

WTF? Talon is one of the most balanced Assassins out there!

bobsenbobFeb 3, 20164 votes

well talon already one shots you with no counterplay, not a big change tbh

AbusingMyRightsFeb 3, 20161 votes

Karma shield the all in mantra w for your health back and q and auto as he limps away

Sassmast3rFeb 4, 20162 votes

Don't you wish people used Karma? <3

MelledoneusFeb 3, 20164 votes

...you're worried about TALON.

Zed Tryndamere Riven Rengar Quinn Graves Ok.

Mech0pFeb 3, 20163 votes

yea this item is honestly useless on people like talon zed or rengar who kill them before the proc goes off... the only way this item kinda becomes handy is when your behind as an assassin this way you can still do decent dmg in team fights instead of just being useless and dying when you go in

WimbledofyFeb 3, 20162 votes

zed can use it. You seem to be forgetting zed can get out. Talon and rengar can only go in.

The LovelessFeb 3, 20162 votes

He'll still go oom after two full rotations. Shield up to block his damage.

DropFillFeb 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Loveless,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s3OAAwTh,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-02-03T13:10:36.045+0000)

He'll still go oom after two full rotations. Shield up to block his damage.

Yeah, because every mid champion has a shield.

The LovelessFeb 5, 20161 votes

Do you want to live and then kill him when he can do no more, or do you want to be greedy and keep buying pure damage items? Patience is a virtue.

FearEngineerFeb 3, 20162 votes

New assassin item will make *Zed more cancer than he is

fixed that for you. Nice try drawing attention away from yourself though Zed

DropFillFeb 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

New assassin item will make *Zed more cancer than he is

fixed that for you. Nice try drawing attention away from yourself though

I don't complain about zed anymore. Something about the fact that people tends to say he has tons of counterplay ( safe laning phase with infinite poke, muh counterplay )

InHaruhiWeTrustFeb 3, 20161 votes

i think you meant to title this "new assassin item will make almost all AD champs cancer"

edit: i mean hell, why shouldn't i buy it on Akali Ekko Diana Fizz ?

MunchCrunchLunchFeb 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

i think you meant to title this "new assassin item will make almost all AD champs cancer"

edit: i mean hell, why shouldn't i buy it on ?

you could. these guys scale with ap but they auto attack as well. especially ekko. tank ekko with that item.

InHaruhiWeTrustFeb 4, 20161 votes

it obviously wouldn't be a good first item but it would work really well as a 3rd or 4th item. on Akali on the other hand.... i'll be getting it 2nd if this cancer item really comes out. i really don't get why they want to release this item and i REALLY hope they don't, its obvious this item isn't gonna be healthy for the game. ADs in generall are in a really good spot right now (stronger than AP in general) and assassins are super strong already too. this item is gonna be rageblade all over again except with more champions being able to buy it...

edit: have you seen JarvanIV or any hybrid AD/tank with this item on PBE? and dear god LeeSin with this item... this item might be the thing that makes me take a break from league lol

JbirdsandoFeb 3, 20161 votes

Suck my ass, no hourglass for adc enjoy having me in your game

Arsenic SulfurFeb 4, 20161 votes

We'll give you an hourglass if you give us a scimitar.

SumatchiFeb 3, 20161 votes

I have no idea what "item" "this item" "that item" etc. actually is. so i'm so confused. lol

Arsenic SulfurFeb 4, 20161 votes

I'm more scared of Mordekaiser with this item. Aside from having incredible AD and decent movespeed, something Morde can appreciate, it synergizes incredibly well with his ult.

KhâmulFeb 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pixel Invoker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s3OAAwTh,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2016-02-04T00:00:15.249+0000)

I'm more scared of Mordekaiser with this item. Aside from having incredible AD and decent movespeed, something Morde can appreciate, it synergizes incredibly well with his ult.

not really. If the target is full life ,it'll be hard since he only needs to walk away to prevent you from using your Q spell. since it's once every 2 minutes,it's not worth.Mordekaiser isn't a burst champion anymore. BUT,it can be fun to test

N3mO06Feb 4, 20161 votes

Before Rengar and now Talon??? Pls guys stop this invisible WAR