The Rylies slow nerf was needed. I agree, it was broken, but what I don't agree with is.....

xxxMadLionxxx·Nov 30, 2016·34 votes·2,020 views

the steady decline of overall AP a mage can get. Every since the Mage update, a lot of ap items were nerfed. We use to have three 120 ap items. Now we only have 1 and only two 100ap items and . Sure, I can get 100 or more ap from and , but not every mage needs the extra mana they give. Not every mage scales with mana. And not every player likes to wait for stacking items to get their max output.

Recently, Rylies also took an ap hit. It went from 100 ap to 75 ap. To top it off, I read that blue buff will soon no longer grant 15%.

Why is riot nerfing overall AP so hard?

Some argue that those nerfs are to decline overall damage output since the keystones like thunder lords were introduced. However, AD items have not been nerfed as heavily as AP in that respect. And Thunder lords is gated by a large static cooldown and DFT is hard for anyone to make full use of.

Am I the only one concerned about the decline of AP?

52 Comments

SlythionNov 30, 201618 votes

the thing is that Rylais was never meant to be a heavy ap item, it was meant to be a health/slow item for mages. The removal of AP in Rylais was completely fine, the problem is hidden in your post where you pointed out that every other ap item was nerfed in it's actual AP value :/

SilverjustNov 30, 20166 votes

there should be a new 100AP item, maybe with CDR

EvilMerodachNov 30, 201613 votes

{quoted}

there should be a new 100AP item, maybe with CDR

plz no anything but that.

I already find it hard to not overmax cdr by endgame.

But yeh something else with 100ap would be nice.

SilverjustNov 30, 20168 votes

at the moment mages need item 3165 item 3001 item 3157 for 40% right? I thought it could be an Item for a less defensive build

LankPantsDec 1, 20164 votes

I already find it hard to not overmax cdr by endgame.

Mages actually don't have that many good CDR items. item 3165 is a fairly universal item, but past that you have item 3152 item 3100 and item 3115 which are all niche items as well as item 3157 and item 3001 which are more defensive. If I want an aggressive build on a mage who doesn't run one of the niche offensive items my options are poor to non-existent. Personally I like CDR on my runepage right now, but being able to opt out of that without spending tons of gold on defence would be nice.

Supreme Senpai69Dec 1, 20161 votes

For example, my usual Veigar build:

item 3003 item 3020 item 3027 item 2301 item 3089 item 3135

The only CDR I get is from my support item, and that's usually what I build last until I need to combine my sightstone and my support item to gain access to my last slot.

SweedishGunnerDec 1, 20168 votes

It's a kneejerk type nerf. Completely overboard. Instead of just tuning down the slow and seeing what happens, they completely gut the item.

WoonStruckDec 1, 20161 votes

AP and AoE/DoT slow needed to be nerfed.

Cass also needs her E to be considered AoE/DoT for the purposes of Rylai's again. Why they thought it was a good idea to remove that when it was there for a reason is beyond me.

HP nerf was uncalled for.

Dynamiku EntryNov 30, 20164 votes

To protect all the weak ass assassins that don't know how to play and get curb stomped by mages.

Teridax68Nov 30, 20164 votes

Personally, what concerns me isn't so much the decline of AP (several mages become really irritating when they're too bursty), but that AD/marksmen itemization hasn't really followed suit when AP and tanky champions have both experienced gradual decreases to both the stats and costs on their items. Items like Bloodthirster, Essence Reaver, Infinity Edge, etc. are among the most expensive in the game, and also feature some of the most raw stats out there: most of those items offer something in the ballpark of 70 AD, which tends to be "equivalent" to about 1.5 times to twice as much AP. This is also not counting multipliers from crit, which are stronger than any AP multiplier. We're already experiencing issues with burst-per-second damage on marksmen come mid- to late-game, especially now that assassins have slower burst, and I think it's high time AD items got both their cost and raw power deflated.

Re: AP builds decreasing in power, specifically, I'd be okay if a few more AP items also offered CDR. Historically, Riot has always stated that AP builds were always about making a tradeoff between raw AP and a lesser mix of AP and cooldown reduction, but now that mages all have less AP by default, it might be good to introduce some more CDR, plus maybe some more defense, utility and CC on their items, so that mages can max out on cooldown reduction with relative ease.

A more experimental change I'd like to see is for cooldown reduction to apply to items, with appropriate increases to base cooldowns: whereas on-hit effects like life steal and Runaan's bolts scale naturally with attack speed (also crit in many cases, too), item actives and passives don't really increase in frequency as games become faster-paced, despite those same items often granting CDR, and despite the classes using them the most also maxing out on cooldown reduction most often (e.g. supports, mages, and some assassins and fighters). Implementing that sort of change would allow AP-scaling champions to shine through situational utility, defenses and CC, which would be thematically fitting for them, just as AD champions specialize in directly enhancing their combat strength.

DolasaurNov 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Personally, what concerns me isn't so much the decline of AP (several mages become really irritating when they're too bursty), but that AD/marksmen itemization hasn't really followed suit when AP and tanky champions have both experienced gradual decreases to both the stats and costs on their items.

But... but... they did... Bloodthirster used to give 100 AD, and IE used to give 80 AD and 25% crit chance (and ER and MS both had 80 AD as well, IIRC). Phantom Dancer used to give 55% AS.

It might not be happening at the same time, but it has happened.

Teridax68Nov 30, 20168 votes

When those items got their AD reduced, crit got a massive buff. Items like Essence Reaver and Runaan's Hurricane started giving crit, on top of several other stats (it's easy for crit marksmen to max out on CDR now, for example), and Statikk Shiv got its crit chance increased by 50% (it was 20% pre-Marksman Update, now it's 30%), with Firecannon also popping up with the same crit chance. It's relatively common now for marksmen to reach >80% crit chance, when the standard prior to the update used to be around 50%, so it more than made up for the loss of ~30 AD on full builds. That wasn't even the strongest buff at the time, since armor penetration became so widespread it surpassed even crit as the meta build for many marksmen. By contrast, Rylai's became meta on mages after their update despite receiving no changes then, simply because it had become one of the most stat-efficient items around by comparison. Mages did receive their own set of compensatory buffs, but now those are being followed by stat and cost reductions on their itemization. By contrast, marksman items are still both the most expensive and stat-heavy items in the game.

DolasaurNov 30, 20162 votes

The nerf to LW on its own was a pretty huge change. It was a cheap item (and its removal therefore upped the average cost of marksman items), but I don't think for a moment that marksmen these days wouldn't pick it up again instead of ER or a second Zeal item. So the part about "it more than made up for the loss of ~30 AD on full builds" needs to also factor in the lack of a ~20% damage amp to both crits and non-crits. (For the crit builds, of course. :) )

Whether or not you agree that they reached the goal, Riot stated during the marksmen roster update that their goal was to tune down end game damage and tune up early game damage, but they still expected marksmen to be the strongest gold-scaling champions out there.

If you think they're ending too strong too early, it seems like addressing marksmen would be easier than altering the items for every other class. (I mean, you could just drop 15 AD off every marksman's base, and that would slow their gold income enough to drastically delay their late game.)

If you think that marksmen just shouldn't be the late game monsters they are relative to the other classes, that's a totally separate philosophical discussion.

Teridax68Nov 30, 20163 votes

The armor penetration component of LW was made cheaper, and Lord Dominik's Regards, while more expensive than the previous LW, is significantly more slot-efficient. It still goes back to the same issue of AD builds being more expensive, but also more powerful as a result. You could argue that the shift to bonus armor pen was a nerf (and it was, which is why a lot of marksmen switched to flat pen), but there's also the 15% damage amp to consider, which applies even to mages once they get a health item.

My issue with marksmen isn't that they get too strong too early (though that happens often now), but that they get the best late game handed to them by default, something that hasn't changed since Season 2, despite their early game buffs last preseason. That is why I think it's worth addressing the marksman class directly to answer that issue (and yeah, that's likely a topic for a thread of its own). However, I also think mages could afford to have more access to cooldown reduction, since they're losing out on raw AP, and making CDR apply on items would allow for casters to thrive a bit better in the late game, which tends to disproportionately favor autoattackers, in part because there are a lot of late-game barriers to spell effectiveness that basic attacks bypass (towers are spell immune, and epic monsters aren't that vulnerable to nuke abilities, for example).

DolasaurNov 30, 20161 votes

Do you happen to know why Riot's kept the current AP ratio on autos against towers? For all them saying since the Morde update that they'd like roles other than ADCs to be able to take down towers, it seems like it would be a super easy win for them to just up that ratio by like .1 or .2, or decrease tower MR over the game.

For the more access, do you mean adding [more] CDR to existing items? (as opposed to like adding a mastery that increases your CDR cap by 15)

Teridax68Nov 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Do you happen to know why Riot's kept the current AP ratio on autos against towers?

I have no real idea, and I could definitely see that ratio being increased. A more risky change could also to have abilities damage towers, with a buff to their overall health, and maybe their MR, in compensation. Since most long-ranged nukes are tied to mana, it would still be costlier for mages to take down towers than it would for autoattackers, who get to use massive DPS on them for free, and it could create this interesting asymmetry between really long-ranged sieging power (mages) and shorter-ranged persistent pushing power (marksmen). There should probably be more changes to towers even beyond that, but it could be a start in letting classes other than marksmen contribute to taking objectives in their own unique way.

{quoted}

For the more access, do you mean adding [more] CDR to existing items? (as opposed to like adding a mastery that increases your CDR cap by 15)

I was thinking about adding more AP/CDR items in the game, and perhaps buffing the CDR on some items, or attaching the stat to preexisting ones, so that mages could reach 40% CDR without necessarily going for Morellonomicon or Abyssal/Protobelt. Now that Rylai's is being relegated to a more niche role, for example, giving it 10% CDR would allow the champions who purchased it, typically manaless AP champions, to access cooldown reduction without having to waste gold on mana.

SpoofghoulDec 1, 20162 votes

what loss of AD?

it got nerfed by 5 on a bunch of items

in return many adc got a base ad buff

then their ad items got their 5 ad back

all in all they got reverse sejuani'd and gained 30 ad rather then lost it bro

oh and they gained a crit runaans which was such a healthy idea, doubles their dps in team fights, and for some who synergize tripled or quadrupled it.

AD increase crit increase bullshit runaans and mastery damage increases shit is way worse then most people realized

Maximum MordeNov 30, 20163 votes

It just means you will see people pick up Liandries more for the multiplicative increase in damage from the additional spell pen.

Silly NeekoNov 30, 20162 votes

the problem is though, ap has higher scalings than the ad.... A mage can have over 800 ap easily with about 3k hp or just shy of it, with decent cdr. AD has to fight to have 400 ad and then they would have only about 2k hp and would be giving up either attack speed, crit chance, or cdr. Mages do not have the att speed and crit chance to worry about so they can do a bit tankier, but you can not tell me you havent been easily 1hkoed late game both people full build with you as an AD and the other being like a leblanc. Mages have higher ap scaling because of no auto attacks, but if there was higher ap items, to keep the mages from running rampant then some of their scalings might need reduced.

They are wanting to keep it so its not just "oh they have 3 mages, better get mr...... Oh they have void staff, liandries, sorc boots, and magic pen runes, my magic resist is useless so need hp.... Oh they do 3k damage with a aoe burst from just one of them. Good bye team"

Plus, with the abyssal scepter update, 10% more magic damage if you are near them means you just added on another 300 damage at minimum.

Seeing as Blitz AP has double 1:1 scalings, Zilean has .8:1 scaling, and then multiple others with fairly high scaling....... Thats 2-3k damage bursts np. Theres a reason the deathfire grasp was taken out too. Mages were just too overpowered. They had to cut back some ap off the items.

And as another said, rylias wasnt meant to be heavy ap item, and there is other items that deal damage based off ap as well, so all in all, the heavy ap gain is cut in favor of items that do damage etc.

This is just some of my thoughts about it.

Dynamiku EntryNov 30, 20164 votes

Spells (ap ratios) have cooldowns.

Auto attacks (ad ratios) don't.

Now do you understand

Ulquiorra995Dec 1, 20161 votes

And AD tends to have better scaling too. For comparison, an ADC with 300 AD and IE will crit for 2.5x AD, equaling 750 damage. Take a mage with over 800 AP, as unlikely as it is with a steady decrease in AP. Say that they have a 90% AP scaling on one of their abilities - a value far above average. That ability would gain 720 damage from AP - 30 less than aforementioned crit with 300 AD, despite total AP being more than double of total AD in the equation.

PermabannedGarenDec 2, 20161 votes

{quoted}

And AD tends to have better scaling too. For comparison, an ADC with 300 AD and IE will crit for 2.5x AD, equaling 750 damage. Take a mage with over 800 AP, as unlikely as it is with a steady decrease in AP. Say that they have a 90% AP scaling on one of their abilities - a value far above average. That ability would gain 720 damage from AP - 30 less than aforementioned crit with 300 AD, despite total AP being more than double of total AD in the equation.

Abilities have base damages.

If that ability was a Morgana Q (which does have 90% AP scaling) for example, the ability would do 1,020 damage.

Even if Morg only had 500 AP, her Q would equal the auto attack of the ADC.

You also don't seem to recognize that armour is far more prevalent than magic resistance is, and that there are items like tabi or randuin's that straight up have percent damage reduction to auto attacks.

Ulquiorra995Dec 2, 20161 votes

Morgana's Q, as a spell with high base and scaling, has a static 11 second cooldown. If it couldn't overpower a single auto without any cost of cooldown associated then we'd have a huge problem. A damaging ability always needs to outdamage an autoattack because of that.

And we can compare AD and AP casters if marksman comparison missed the mark.

AD abilities also have base damage - and again, due to AD being lower those scalings tend to be higher than their AP counterparts. Unlike AP where basic abilities rarely go over 70%, AD abilities with more than 100% are common, with some champions like Riven or Lee having up to 180%. Same story with ultimates; where an AP mage will rarely deal 100% AP unless it's a DoT/something that requires you to stand in it in AD department numbers easily go from 200% (Lee, Cait, Jarvan and more) to 400+ % like Wukong. For comparison, where Lee needs 300 AD to add 600 damage to his ultimate while, say, Lissandra needs well over 600 AP to achieve that kind of damage bonus. More than double the amount.

And armor is more prevalent than MR, true - because it has to be. Physical damage is far more reliable in this game than magical; say you have an AP mage and an AD caster. AP mage blows his spells, does not kill you and is useless until its cooldowns come back on. AD caster blows his spells, does not kill you and continues to beat on you with strong AA's often coupled with steroids/enhancers.

DolasaurNov 30, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Plus, with the abyssal scepter update, 10% more magic damage if you are near them means you just added on another 300 damage at minimum.

I know you're going for hyperbole, but... Abyssal was stronger for magic damage amplification before, unless you already had like 200 MR. They specifically nerfed that aspect of it because they removed Locket of the Iron Solari.

DemoGuideNov 30, 20162 votes

WHY 75 WHY JUST GIVE 80 PLEASE I ALREADY HATE BUILDING ZHONYA'S BECAUSE IT'S LESSER THAN 80!

101100111000Dec 1, 20162 votes

Wait, you hate building Zhonya's for a 5 AP difference?

...why?

Supreme Senpai69Dec 1, 20162 votes

It's not as even he means. Balance and damage and whatnot aside I assume he likes having clean numbers that can be made to end in a 0 and not a 5. Or maybe he really just needs that +1-5 extra damage on his abilities, who knows? Lol

The Yetii RiderDec 1, 20162 votes

"Some mages don't need the mana".

But every Mage needs the AP. So either suck it up and buy RoA/Archangels or deal with the lower AP build.

"Not every player wants to wait for an item to stack."

Yes, those are the bad players. We shouldn't reward bad players.

As for why there needs to be a decrease in AP, it's because there's a decrease in MR without the Legion aura on aegis.

NineTailedMysticDec 1, 20164 votes

The one that's compensated for with a Shield that's double than when it had MR?

The Yetii RiderDec 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The one that's compensated for with a Shield that's double than when it had MR?

Yes. Because players have a hard time using actives at the right time. And high AP burst mages are pub stompers.

Supreme Senpai69Dec 1, 20162 votes

I think nerfing AP is totally fine if they go and adjust every AP champion's ratios. That would better allow them to balance specific champions instead of "Well they can have anywhere from 200-800 AP" and now it can be "They'll most likely have 500." The issue is that's not why they're doing it and they won't be compensating champions to my knowledge.

Teridax68Dec 1, 20162 votes

I agree with this. Unlike every other stat in the game, the "true" value of AP comes from its interaction with AP ratios, and not with the stat itself, since it doesn't buff anything else. If AP values were halved but AP ratios were doubled, the end result would be exactly the same. That could potentially even be the way to go, too, since an advantage to normalizing AP and AD values is that it would make for comparisons between the two stats easier (not that they can be directly compared with perfect accuracy, though).

iLLpDec 1, 20162 votes

so syndra cant press r ignite and kill me

QuephaNov 30, 20161 votes

Rylai's was not part of a balls-to-the-wall AP build. It was a utility item that represented a big loss of damage.

Rabadon's, Archangel's, Luden's, Void Staff, Morello. If you want a glass cannon then you don't get to have slows and hp too.

NineTailedMysticDec 1, 20161 votes

Archangel's is shit for most APs and Luden's got overnerfed. Rabadon's still gives decent AP but its also the most expensive item in the game and its a chore to build due to its build path. 1265 for NLR + Blasting Wand + Amp Tome I believe, 1700 for NLR + Blasting Wand. It's insane.

ImmortalBloodCYDec 1, 20161 votes

The Rylais Slow nerf shouldnt have happened without a compensation to Mordekaiser as its an 100% Must Buy on him mainly because of how slow he is and how easy it is to kite him.

Without Rylai's its almost 100% impossible for Mordekaiser to caught someone and kill them unless they mess up.

101100111000Dec 1, 20161 votes

Let's remember Blue Buff didn't even actually start granting AP until the end of Season 5 (and only 36 AP, so eh).

MYMU is when they replaced that AP with the 15% modifier.

Itemization in general has lost raw stats as the price for more utility. Zhonya's was replaced under the premise that raw power should be the compromise for such a high potential defensive ability. Luden's Echo is only a 100 AP whacking stick because it offers high MS and an AP scaling proc. Tear items were arguably buffed by now cutting mana costs by 25%. RoA got a consistency buff in its sustain.

Cutting 25 AP from Rylai's a utility AP item that originally only had 80 AP to begin with makes perfect sense, it's even consistent with Riot's overall treatment of Frozen Mallet, which is now back to its pre-Marksman passover stats, which it held almost consistently for several seasons prior. I'm more concerned with the health nerf it receives on top of that, which makes the item gold inefficient in raw stats despite the cost reduction. It lost too much of everything to make worth building. If it were back at 80 AP with 500 Health, then it'd be a fine defensive AP item like it was meant to be.

And let's not pretend blue buff is just getting entirely nerfed. It's duration was extended to 2 minutes (a whole 30 seconds), so you can actively throw more shit at your opponent's face at the expense of that shit not necessarily hitting 15% harder.

Quite frankly, I'm fine with raw stat nerfs as long as they're more broad. Big ticket AD items could do with another small AD cut like they got in the marksman pass. Or we could go with reverting the base AD buff most marksmen got at the same time.

VeraskaDec 1, 20161 votes

Keep in mind in midlane, mages have the top 11 highest winrates in the role this patch, corki (who is essentially a mage) is number 12

Mages got a HUGE benefit from the loss of lockets mr aura

As for rylais stat reduction im ok with it, slows on spells is a really powerful thing to opt into and it should have appropriate trade offs

WoonStruckDec 1, 20161 votes

One, Mages are already broken. Lower AP doesn't mean they're weak.

Two, mages are doing more damage despite lower AP. Tank item hits and the season 6/7 masteries have dramatically increased damage to the point where you're doing more damage than you used to with 700-800 AP.

Three, You can still hit 700-1000 AP if you buy archangel's, Morello's, Deathcap, Luden's, void. If you want high AP, you have to pay for it with a weaker early game, which is honestly more balanced than it was before. Even though mages in general are still overtuned atm.

NineTailedMysticDec 1, 20161 votes

Maybe if they make it so Archangels is worth it for more than 3 APs

WoonStruckDec 1, 20161 votes

So you're saying every AP should have the option to 1 shot anyone without a trade-off?

Because that's what it sounds like.

NineTailedMysticDec 1, 20161 votes

No, I'm saying that stacking a Tear is abysmal for some champions. A champion like Ryze or Cass can use tear no problem. Ryze gets damage off of it and stacks it quickly while not needing CDR, while Cass doesn't need CDR and stacks it very quickly. Compare this to Lux or Viktor, or Brand who are probably trolling if they buy Tear due to their high CDs and high Mana costs.

WoonStruckDec 1, 20161 votes

Yes, 700 gold means someone's trolling...right.

Its not like some champions buy item 3123 for laning vs high sustain champions, and even sell it later or anything...

You can't talk even begin to mention mana costs when it comes to tear because it only helps by lowering them by 25%. Considering most people go tear->morello's->archangel's, its not exactly out of the way.

NineTailedMysticDec 2, 20161 votes

Yes, with high Mana cost spells, they're effectively 25% cheaper, but it still takes a decade to stack compared to the champions who can use Tear viably.

WoonStruckDec 2, 20161 votes

It doesn't even need to be stacked to be an efficient item.

You upgrade it to archangel's as soon as morello's is done, boom. You have a 120+ AP item and a 100 AP item. And it only gets higher.

Every champ in the game can stack a manamune/archangel's quickly. Only some can stack a tear quickly. The secret to stacking quickly is not being an idiot and leaving it at tear until its fully stacked.

Wolfram OxfordDec 1, 20161 votes

item 3072 used to give 100 and could be stacked now gives 80 (is also expensive as hell) item 3031 used to give 80 now gives 70 item 3139 used to give 80 now gives 65 item 3071 used to give 80 (many years ago) now gives 50 item 3142 went from 30 with crit to 65 without crit now is at 60 item 3147 used to give 75 now gives 65

Even if I missed more now we have to mention no AD deathcap... Both sides have been getting hit damage-wise the only difference is mages can still be stronger if they buy into the high ap mana items and just take the time to scale. Mages also have a lot stronger defensive options because many items offer AP supplemented with HP or resistances or actives that literally save your life and cock block half of the shit assassins and marksmen can do. I feel like if Riot wants to give offensive power back to mages they need to cut down on their defense.

NineTailedMysticDec 1, 20161 votes

Even if I missed more now we have to mention no AD deathcap

Critical Chance X AS X Critical Modifier is your AD Deathcap.

Mages also have a lot stronger defensive options

Lifesteal, Mercurial Scimitar, a dedicated Support (and likely their items) early on. Not to mention dips outside of their intended items for general items like GA or Bruiser items like Sterak's and Maw although they have been rightfully nerfed for ADCs.

Wolfram OxfordDec 2, 20161 votes

Lifesteal doesn't do much when you get 100-0 by everyone but the support, actually never mind mage supports can actually 100-0 ADCs too.