Why are tanks more gated in mana than mages?

Ahristocats·Jun 11, 2017·58 votes·2,491 views

it doesn't make sense in any way mages spells are stronger mages are able to buy mana and mana regen

why the fuck nautilus Q costs 100 mana? his W costs 85 mana? malphite Q? galio's only spell that costs a lot of mana is Q and that's because it's his waveclear spell his other spells cost like 40 or 50 mana

why tanks's mana costs are so aberrant?

in competition the only tanks played atm are zac shen galio see any clue? exactly, none of them have mana cost problems meanwhile nautilus: 60-100 mana on Q, 85 on W, 40-80 on E

welp

109 Comments

Big LincolnJun 11, 201754 votes

i dont want to live in a world where malphite can spam Q

RalanrJun 12, 20171 votes

Only after he gets a full VGU.

AMYS GRAVEJun 12, 201714 votes

Then his Q will have a knockup on it!

Big LincolnJun 12, 20173 votes

nah man it'll be an aoe stun nuke that also drops a grounding zone

and does % damage

MhihnjJun 12, 20172 votes

and untargetable, don't forget untargetable

flibitydooJun 12, 20176 votes

I remember how horrible it was in season 3 when lane Nunu was a thing and you got iceblasted cooldown after cooldown

One Ashe OnJun 11, 201731 votes

Crowd control. Most of Tank spell have crowd controls relied to it and since most of them are Crowd control reliant in teamfight and since they are durable they can use it in your face in repeat. Mage in other hands have to be cautious of their positioning otherwise it mean death. That's mostly why they added huge mana cost to tank spell , to negate the spam of crowd controls 1 after another and not caring of death. It's for normal use, not spam.

[Excuse my poor english, i'm french ^^'']

Champion SkinJun 12, 20173 votes

High mana costs matters most for poke abilities which are spammed as often as possible (very few tanks have this) and during laning phase where you use your abilities to repeatedly trade with your lane opponent

Most of Tank spell have crowd controls relied to it and since most of them are Crowd control reliant in teamfight

That doesn't really matter since in teamfights you usually just use all of your abilities and then the fight is won or lost you might get a couple more rotations of depending on CDR and such but it shouldn't be a problem even if you spam your abilities as much as you can since teamfights usually don't last that long....

And a lot of tanks can't spam their abilities.... without going into melee range which isn't always an option unless the tank is engaging a fight but if they mess up they will likely end up in a very bad spot or end up with their important ult on cooldown (for long range engage ultimates like Sejuani ult)

Sire HippingtonJun 12, 20172 votes

Most mages also have cc on their stuff though...And while they are not as durable, they have WAY more** range**, which makes it much easier for them to use multiple spell rotation than it is for tanks. Range is just a massive advantage.

TurquoiseYoshiJun 12, 201711 votes

1: Tanks aren't supposed to spam spells that much. Nautilus specifically got those insane mana costs because he was able to sit under tower and spam E for years and never be able to be pushed in that well. Most tanks are less mana-gated than the ones you listed.

2: If you have mana problems, build mana items. Mages have mana problems, so they build Morello, RoA, Tear, or Lich Bane to mitigate that. If you're having mana issues as a tank, build Righteous Glory, IBG, or Frozen Heart.

RalanrJun 12, 201712 votes

Apparently they aren't supposed to AA much either.

TurquoiseYoshiJun 12, 20173 votes

Typically a tank's role is to use CC spells and take very little damage. Considering that both of those aren't super useful early on in lane, tanks tend to not be great in lane.

RalanrJun 12, 201710 votes

Except tanks have been proven to be very boring and unattractive when this happens. And a few top lane tank designs have been made to show that Riot wants to make some tanks good for laning so they don't hug turret.

Sire HippingtonJun 12, 20172 votes

1: If tanks aren't supposed to spam thier spells, then what are they supposed to do? Bodyblocking is not a thing in league, straight up soaking damage also is not a thing because there is not reason to focus you and you can't take focused fire anyway, and AAs are also not much of a thing on tanks. And for the case of Naut, if he wasn't supposed to spam E, wehn why did they change it into a spam spell back in V5.5 by halfing the cd and lowering damage and manacosts?

2: Tanks have a pretty poor options for mana. Fh and Iceborn both to absolutly nothing vs magic damage, so if you face some one like rumble, you can't rush them to fix your mana, and even vs a physical laner, it still leaves you very vulnerable vs magic damage from mid and evt jungle for ganks and early teamfights, which with Riftherald now beeing a real objective happen alot more often. Golry is a very niche item and for most champions not a good rush item. Also, it looses it's mana on PBE right now.

The WhamboozlerJun 12, 201710 votes

Um... mages do exactly ONE thing.... cast spells. They're all about that shit. Their autos are crap. They're usually very squishy. A lot of them are immobile. ALL they do is throw spells at people. Because of this, they build mana regen... buy mana regen items, use mana regen masteries/runes, and generally have more mana to play with. Without mana they're usless.

A tank's job is not to die. They are meant to soak up damage, not dish it out. Very few of them build any kind of mana regen items, and most of them would be kinda broken if they could spam their abilities. Galio probably needs his mana costs spiked, but they probably left them lowish because he used to be a mid-lane "mage", so he still has some similar traits to one.

More often than not, low mana on a tank isn't a problem. They're not supposed to be spamming spells or winning lane, usually. They're a supportive role meant to place passively early and then be useful as a front-line in teamfights. None of this requires mana. Tanks are not mages. They are not splitpushers who need to spam spells on the minions. They are not duelists who are expected to fight alone. Now, if you think the role is lousy and dislike it because it can't spam spells and be more pro-active... that's your opinion and it's valid. But tanks have enough mana to do what they need to... and they need very little. If you wanna be more aggressive and use more spells, play some bruisers or mages man.

Champion SkinJun 12, 20177 votes

A tank's job is not to die.

Well yes and no... since if all the tank was doing was just surviving and being difficult to kill nobody would bother wasting damage on them

Like if a tank has no mana there isn't much reason to bother even dealing damage to them if they have allies around... what's Amumu or something going to do.... apply his passive.... yeah still better to just ignore him and try and deal with his allies first...

The WhamboozlerJun 12, 20172 votes

Well yeah. It's USUALLY better to ignore Amumu than focus his team... mana or not. What amumu is picked for is his Q - R. It costs all of 150 mana? 200? Sure, having the mana to spam E and keep your W up certainly helps, but his primary job in a fight is to initiate with all of TWO spells... and that doesn't require much.

Now I'm not saying all tanks are balanced perfectly. I'm just explaining the overall reasons why tanks aren't giving the huge mana pools that mages have. Because they are not mages. Complaining about tanks not being able to spam spells is like me as a Lux player complaining that I'm so squishy when there are other AP champs like Cho'Gath and Galio who don't.

CasterGilgameshJun 12, 20172 votes

lets also not forget they could still build item 3025 item 3110 get tons of mana and have max CDR with just two items plus have a ton of armor

AhristocatsJun 12, 20173 votes

those 2 items are literally garbage except maybe frozen fist that i see being built on galio

frozen herat is completly trash, too expensive for nothing they nerfed everything in this item except cdr that no one cares about now since you can get it easily with other items

CasterGilgameshJun 12, 20171 votes

it had to be nerf the passive is just very strong and it gives 20% cdr any tank that wants to spam spells could gets a lot out of this one item

AhristocatsJun 12, 20172 votes

i mean no one builds them why even bother with those items?

nautilus never builds them yet he runs oom insanely fast

CasterGilgameshJun 13, 20171 votes

i dont know im not in control of what pros and the sheep the copy them do maybe they just have a other priorities outside of spamming spells so they dont buy them.Personally i dont buy them because i play support and pref item 3190 item 3069 and along with item 2049

Sire HippingtonJun 12, 20173 votes

A tank's job is not to die.

This is just wrong. Tanks are not just there to soak damage, that simply doesn't work. Lol is not an MMO-RPG where you draw aggro and then soak damage. it's an PvP game, the only way to draw aggro is by beeing a threat in some way, which means either beeing disruptive with cc, which requires useing abillties, or by doing damage, which for tanks usually requires abillities aswell as there AAs are weak. Also, the abillity to soak damage for many tanks also is tied to mana. And If a tank has no tradeing/wavelcear option early, he wpon't be able to farm up gear so he won't be tanky anyway.

If tanks are to restricted in tehir output, the only option left for them is to go support...

AhristocatsJun 12, 20172 votes

couldn't have explained better

PePsiLemoNNJun 12, 20179 votes

Nautilus = 270

Q - 100 W - 80 E - 90

Lux = 260

Q - 70 W - 60 E - 130 R - 100 (low cooldown)

Taliyah = 290

Q - 70 W - 110 E - 110

Lissandra = 235

Q - 85 W - 50 E - 100

Syndra = 230

Q - 80 W - 100 E - 50

Lissandra Syndra Taliyah all have spammable abilities. Also mages build mana items .

And why do you even compare 2 entirely different classes? I don't remember any mage to have cc on 3 abilities and on passive like Nautilus

AhristocatsJun 12, 20177 votes

{quoted}

And why do you even compare 2 entirely different classes? I don't remember any mage to have cc on 3 abilities and on passive like

let's not pretend that mages spells are inferior to tanks spells

and yes, they're more gated because i see a tank running oom (unless it's galio) more often than a mage going oom

you count lux R mana cost, but not nautilus R nice joke

An Undead bratJun 12, 20175 votes

let's not pretend that mages spells are inferior to tanks spells

So your point of them costing less mana is...?

AhristocatsJun 12, 20172 votes

no, my point is destroying his point that tanks spells are better because they have ccs

An Undead bratJun 12, 20174 votes

If their spells are equal, then the only difference is the first are tanky and the second deal damage. Considering both have options to get bonus mana, so they are equal in that sence, tank items are way cheaper than damage items. AND on top of that when both classes run out of mana, what is left? Tanks are still durable, but mages are weaker than a creep wave at that point. So I think that if they actually invest in mana, they should be able to almost never run out of it, since any other class has some additional tool when they run out of it or they don't have it at all (tankiness, AA damage).

AhristocatsJun 12, 20173 votes

their spell mana costs are not equal in any way

and you have to explain to me why a tank runs out of mana more often than a mage

An Undead bratJun 12, 20175 votes

I already said so and ReptiIicus did too. Mage without a mana is a nothing that blows up. Tank without a mana is a nothing that can at least walk away. Marksmen, fighters and others are still extremely relevant without mana. Enchanters usually still have active items that cost nothing to help themselves.

When you just let mages run out of mana easily in the current state of the game, they are instantly the worst thing in the game and are immediately replaced with something other like Lucian mid- oh...

DoktorKaiserJun 12, 20179 votes

No, you are 100% right, but then again you aren't. The problem isn't that tanks go oom too fast, the problem is that the mages never go oom any more (speaking as someone who mains mages) and an even bigger problem is that newly released champions have pathetic mana cost, the problem is that broken skills like Camille E cost 50 mana where they used to cost 100-150, that spammable shit with big impact like Fiora Q costs like 30 mana where it should cost 60-90. Same thing with CDR, ever since they released the first URF they are giving their best to turn regular games into some kind of semi-URF and its pissing me off honestly... And I don't even want to talk about manaless champions, most of them are abusing it hard and I am happy that they somewhat stopped releasing manaless champs (I only recall Kled not having mana out of newly released ones).

korg023Jun 12, 201710 votes

What do you mean mages never go oom? Try playing ziggs or syndra. I run oom on those champions even after i have Morello,if i dont get kills or assists to get mana restored by items passive i just run oom and am forced to go back.

DoktorKaiserJun 12, 20173 votes

I didnt mean literally never go oom, but compare that to earlier seasons and you can stay with mana twice as long at least. And that is coming from an Orianna main, I am pretty sure nobody spends more mana than her.

korg023Jun 12, 20178 votes

If you are Orianna main you must remember old version of this item item 3174 right? It is basically free blue buff as first item . You literally cant go oom with that item.

DoktorKaiserJun 12, 20171 votes

I would still argue that I can spam more now than with Athene's at its peak. But at some point it was stupid af.

DengedenJun 12, 20171 votes

Strange how you still buy GLP despite of that.

DoktorKaiserJun 12, 20171 votes

Jesus Christ you nolifers just have to search my entire match history to find 10 games where I tested new builds...

DengedenJun 13, 20171 votes

It took me 2 minutes to find a game where you played an actual mage and in the most recent cases, half your games had GLP in them. But sure, keep enjoying your superiority complex and downvote me...

DoktorKaiserJun 13, 20171 votes

Yeah because I totally have just this account and I totally didnt play fucking Swain most recently who buys the GLP and Orianna who I tested it on. Good fucking job. Now go look for your life on lolking or w/e ...

DJMason88Jun 12, 20177 votes

Probably because my Lissandra q can't apply heavy cc to you, pull us together, and act as a mobility spell? Tank's abilities are usually stronger in terms of cc and defense.

DunkinNoobsJun 12, 20175 votes

It's not a tanks job to waveclear once grouping begins. They also have access to sunfire which mages do not.

One Ashe OnJun 12, 201715 votes

{quoted}

It's not a tanks job to waveclear once grouping begins. They also have access to sunfire which mages do not.

Sunfire got hard nerfed thought .

DunkinNoobsJun 12, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=One Ashe On,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s0N2Ppcs,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-06-12T00:49:19.110+0000)

Sunfire got hard nerfed thought .

The waveclear didn't.

One Ashe OnJun 12, 201711 votes

{quoted}

The waveclear didn't.

People was buying it for waveclear but also good AoE damage . The Aoe zone got also nerfed for both AoE and waveclear so yes it did.

PB4UAMEJun 12, 20177 votes

When larger chaqmpions (y'know like tanks, particularly a stacked Cho, or if any of the larger ones get Iron elixir, use stoneplate, get lulu ulted, or have a sterak's pop) can't even use the radius anymore because their models are larger than the sunfire aura is now, yeah its waveclear did get nerfed.

RalanrJun 12, 20174 votes

The radius was reduced. So technically it kinda was.

AhristocatsJun 12, 20177 votes

dredge line is a waveclear ability?

FFS

One Ashe OnJun 12, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Janna X RubicK,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s0N2Ppcs,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2017-06-12T06:47:07.130+0000)

dredge line is a waveclear ability?

FFS

What you talking about ?