High elo games are unplayable if you arent a jungle main

Rexxiee·Nov 6, 2018·1 votes·1,375 views

Unless you like flipping a coin every 15~20 minutes.

Easily 90~95% of the games in high elo are literally better jungler wins, and it only gets worse the higher you go (go to korea top 5 in challenger, ALL FKING JUNGLE MAINS wow what a coincidence!!!!!!one!)

Please riot, make high elo games playable again for non jungle players, nerf the fk out of the jungle and put its impact down to bot and top lane again (mid is already fine), bot lane players are specially on a very bad spot now, as their agency on the game is near 0 with how broken jungle is now.

11 Comments

Super SandmanneNov 6, 20182 votes

I think that's just the nature of a role that roams the whole map. How would riot even address what you are complaining about?

ValyrianBladeNov 6, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Sandmanne,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s0A2iZbJ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-06T03:50:18.472+0000)

I think that's just the nature of a role that roams the whole map. How would riot even address what you are complaining about?

As the other post mentioned - you need to penalize junglers that fail ganks.

Nothing is more depressing as a laner than to get ganked 3-6 times before level 6, survive every gank (but eventually blow your summoners), then watch the enemy jungler 1v1 your jungler and kill him after you were forced to base, when your early-game jungler hasn't ganked once yet. The enemy jungler didn't fall behind at all because of all of those ganks. He failed as badly as he could have, and yet you were punished CS and XP by being forced to play passive and recall but he lost nothing for it.

Camps should have faster respawns and smaller rewards, like they did in previous seasons. A gank should cost you a potential camp. You fail three ganks in a row? You're now a level (and a couple hundred gold) behind the enemy jungler that was just farming.

As problematic as the "power farming jungle meta" can be (players on weak laners complain they get no jungle support), it's a lot more balanced and gives agency to other players too.

Super SandmanneNov 6, 20183 votes

Lowering camp rewards means that junglers will gank more to compensate. If you really want junglers to be less active on the map, the camps should be tougher but more valuable. Otherwise we'll just get another season of early junglers like Xin and Lee being in every game

They do this literally every preseason and every time they do, junglers become more and more reliant on lane tax gold and xp to not fall behind, so the meta shifts to more gank heavy junglers. The last time this wasn't the case was whem devourer/feral flare was a thing.

ValyrianBladeNov 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Sandmanne,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s0A2iZbJ,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-06T17:12:38.423+0000)

Lowering camp rewards means that junglers will gank more to compensate. If you really want junglers to be less active on the map, the camps should be tougher but more valuable. Otherwise we'll just get another season of early junglers like Xin and Lee being in every game

They do this literally every preseason and every time they do, junglers become more and more reliant on lane tax gold and xp to not fall behind, so the meta shifts to more gank heavy junglers. The last time this wasn't the case was whem devourer/feral flare was a thing.

Your memory is backwards here.

They initially explicitly made camps spawn LESS often to make farm junglers who could clear quickly have windows where they had nothing to do other than gank - so they were encouraged to help their team out. That worked well. Then they continued in that direction, and completely destroyed camp respawn timers such that you could spend 2/3 of your time ganking and still keep your jungle cleared no problem...

I'm not saying "lower camp rewards" in the sense of making the jungle provide less xp and gold. I'm saying "lower camp rewards AND make them spawn faster (and possibly deal less damage to you, at least early)" so the net effect is less gold/xp per camp but equal/more gold/xp overall. However now every time you fail a gank, you're giving up potential camp xp and gold because all except the fastest junglers can't keep the whole jungle cleared efficiently. So junglers will fall behind if they keep failing ganks.

The reason you need to lower camp rewards is because with faster respawn timers, otherwise junglers would get so far ahead of the map.

Super SandmanneNov 8, 20182 votes

If you make camps spawn faster but lower the rewards, farming your jungle actively puts you behind laners in gold/xp, so the obvious course of action is to lean towards picks that can get more consistent gold from ganking and taxing. That's why picking something like shyvana in this meta is borderline trolling. If you want junglers to take picks that gank less, you need to make farming the jungle more appealing, not less.

ValyrianBladeNov 9, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Sandmanne,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s0A2iZbJ,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-08T23:54:21.698+0000)

If you make camps spawn faster but lower the rewards, farming your jungle actively puts you behind laners in gold/xp, so the obvious course of action is to lean towards picks that can get more consistent gold from ganking and taxing. That's why picking something like shyvana in this meta is borderline trolling. If you want junglers to take picks that gank less, you need to make farming the jungle more appealing, not less.

You clearly haven't played this game very long. What I'm talking about is literally reversing a change they made to successfully get junglers to gank MORE.

I'm not proposing to make the jungle less appealing.

You can decrease camp rewards, increase respawn rates, and net increase rewards.

Let's say currently jungle rewards are a 10, and rate is a 3: for net 30. I'm proposing rewards get lowered to 6, but rate increased to 6: net 36, or 20% more rewarding.

Further, with rate 3, junglers get so much downtime they can gank at rate 3 for free without losing anything. At rate 6, if a jungle wants to gank at rate 3, they can only farm at rate 3, giving up a lot. Even if they gank at rate 1, consistently failing will cost them farm (down to net 30, or same as present) which is what we want: to give your team a net advantage if you're consistently surviving ganks.

Super SandmanneNov 9, 20181 votes

Using your metrics, laning rewards are at like a 15. Why bother clearing with a rate of 3 when you could gank and then tax to get ahead while also exerting pressure on the map? At that point, why would anyone ever pick a farming jungler over a gank heavy jungler? The further you lower camp rewards the less time junglers will spend in the jungle and the more time they'll spend in lanes, which if I'm not mistaken is what you're trying to fix.

The logical extreme of nerfing jungle yields is a role that is basically river shen imo

ValyrianBladeNov 9, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Sandmanne,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s0A2iZbJ,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-09T01:48:04.775+0000)

Using your metrics, laning rewards are at like a 15. Why bother clearing with a rate of 3 when you could gank and then tax to get ahead while also exerting pressure on the map? At that point, why would anyone ever pick a farming jungler over a gank heavy jungler? The further you lower camp rewards the less time junglers will spend in the jungle and the more time they'll spend in lanes, which if I'm not mistaken is what you're trying to fix.

The logical extreme of nerfing jungle yields is a role that is basically river shen imo

If you tax, your reducing your lanes resources. It's about optimizing.

And again, I'm not lowering camp rewards in total, just per camp.

The change to make camp respawn times longer and increase rewards is what caused ganks to increase so much. It's a fact that reversing that would have the reverse affect. Not on every champion or in every game, but in aggregate. I don't even see why this is being argued - unless you didn't play in seasons 4-5 when it was like this.

Hayaishi2Nov 6, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Sandmanne,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s0A2iZbJ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-06T03:50:18.472+0000)

I think that's just the nature of a role that roams the whole map. How would riot even address what you are complaining about?

Reverting the jungle to how it used to be?

The jungle didn't use to be so dominant. If the enemy junglers plays well he wins the game by himself, it doesn't matter if your laners are better players it only matters what the jungler did or didn't do.

Dasdi96Nov 6, 20181 votes

What they need to do is make camps spawn more frequently but give less rewards, that way junglers who chain gank with low success are punished more, while junglers that need to scale are a bit better.