I guess the live design team truly doesnt play the game.

Rexxiee·Jan 7, 2018·126 votes·7,759 views

Meddler thinks blitzcrank is more overpowered than alistar and leona (and they dont even have nerfs planned for those 2 100% pick/ban in high elo lmao).

Ghostcrawler "you dont need to play the game to design it".

We are truly doomed with those ppl in charge of the game, expect the tank supports to stay broken like this for years.

#bringmorelloback

Or just bring the old designers, you know the ppl that actually back then made this game so good that it became the most played in the world, expect more and more balance problems with new champs like zoe.

137 Comments

DemoGuideJan 7, 201855 votes

You know waht really bothers me? Where the fuck is Guinsoo? You know, that guy which made original Dota, which made original LoL. Both of these games are loved to the day. Why the fuck he is not a lead game designer? Last time i heard about him is when there was info about upcoming Fiora rework.

And on the point of Ghostcrawler being the lead game designer. You know, i just randomly read a game design post of HOTS yesterday. They were talking about balance of supports in the current meta... And you know, i actually felt like they designing a game as a whole. I think i might try ranked hots one day, just because there seems to be people who actually look after a game as a whole? What we have been having since Ghostcrawler joined? Class updates? Rune update? Jungle updates? Haven't seen a single patch trying to balance game as a whole, and i think ghostcrawler just can't do it. He can't see game as a whole, he can just continue to rework small things step by step, constatly throwing game into trashier state. Yes, i think he might be good as designer, maybe chmpion designer or rune designer, but he just can't take big projects.

Leighton705Jan 7, 20181 votes

[deleted]

SEKAIJan 7, 20189 votes

{quoted}

Only thing he'd be good at designing is the shit that comes out of his own asshole, and that's only because that has no design standards.

That must be why he, and together with Ezreal (Rioter), designed pretty much all of the iconic staple champs (by that I don't include meme iconic stables like Yasuo whose icon is how big of a design diarrhea he is, legitimate iconic staple characters).

ShadowParkerJan 7, 20181 votes

Such as?

AhristocatsJan 7, 20184 votes

guinsoo designed singed, karthus, fiddle, alistar, anivia, shaco

those champions are awesome to me

ezreal designed ahri, while i don't like her (background wise, not gameplay wise) she was THE champion of league in 2012/2013

The steam lifeJan 7, 20181 votes

They may be iconic but with the exception of Anivia and fiddle not well designed.

ShinjusukeJan 7, 20182 votes

"I like this" is not equal to "well designed" "I don't like this" is not equal to "badly designed"

A thought you, and many of the people on these boards talking about "Design" would do very well to figure out.

The steam lifeJan 7, 20181 votes

While you’re being condescending I’m still gonna be nice to you as your parent probably should have taught you to be but oh well.

“I like this" is not equal to "well designed"

Yeah I understand but I don’t like anivia and I don’t feel particularly either way with fiddle so that doesn’t really apply here. I’m just saying that in general those champs he listed are either hated (singed, shaco) Or oppressive when good (karthus and Ali)

AhristocatsJan 7, 20182 votes

those champions had a dedicated playerbase that attracted players back then

i don't know if you know how anivia was iconic in season 2 won't lie it was because of froggen who became a legend of unable to lose mid as anivia

reginald/alex ich karthus, dyrus singed all those champions were infamous in 2011/2012 to their kit AND a pro player those champions helped league to forge a reputation itself

and that's even more true for ahri back then

InfernapeJan 7, 201810 votes

IIRC he's on R&D for a non league game.

T4underboltJan 7, 201812 votes

You should try hots. Every support has some kind of cc, disruption, heal or shield. Depending on what you need you choose talents. If your team has natural sustain but enemy is burst you talent into cc, disruption. If they lack burst you amplify sustain. Countering supports is actually easier compared to lol. In lol support just builds retarded heal shield.power items and with one ability shield adc for another full hp bar and shields have armor mr. In hots there are talents and heroes who lower healing or give you more damage to shields. In hots soon the new mmr system will be reintroduced. It will take into account your personal performance so you climb to where you belong faster imstead of punishing you for having braindead teammates. Games are shorter but packed with action every single second and you can actually comeback if your team works well even if it seems like you have only nexus left and no hope.

ArakadiaJan 7, 20182 votes

Every support has some kind of cc, disruption, heal or shield.

Same with league?

HaIlMonitorJan 7, 20184 votes

The problem is in league they are super specialized. You cant pick raka if you need hard CC, but she stops burst. You don't pick leo if you need sustain, only if you need CC. Very few are like Ali or Taric.

GorantharonJan 8, 20182 votes

Not sure if it's really GC's fault, but this runes update is exactly what you describe. The new runes are good for certain champions and complete garbage for anyone that doesn't fit with them.

The previous capstones were at least flexible and broad enough to be used by many champions, but even their respective replacements in the new system are limited to very specific cases.

Just look at Electrocute. Thunderlord's was usable on a wide variety of champions, while EC is specifically the PRESS ALL BUTTONS AT ONCE keystone.

Press the attack is only for auto attackers.

It's really as if someone only looked at a quarter of the champions and designed runes for them and no one else.

BlåbæretJan 7, 201831 votes

GC doesn't know how to design a game. Period.

We are finally seeing the effects of his work. Congrats to Rito - you're digging your own grave.

Who is TaliyahJan 7, 201817 votes

Ghostcrawler - 08-21-2014

"I'm not super interested in compromising LoL design in the name of accessibility. Yes, League is obnoxiously hard to learn if you don't have a friend showing you the ropes. That sucks, but it's not worth stripping away the depth or potential for mastery for our core audience -- you guys -- in order to attract new players. That's not an approach every game can or should take, but it's the right call for League."

Meanwhile right now it feels like they want us veteran players to stop playing the game.

ChompyWulfJan 7, 20187 votes

As a former WoW player I cringed so hard when they hired him. He took that game from its peak player base to a downward trajectory and while the LoL base is OK, the balance is on a tipping point of losing massive numbers.

Sraeg2013Jan 7, 20182 votes

and while the LoL base is OK

The joke is you don't know that. Since Rito confirmed the monthly playerbase to be 67m in 2014 there was no word, except that journalistic circlejerk claiming a year or so ago there's "more than 100 million players".

Compared to 2014 Chinese servers are stagnant and the ranked playerbase in the "West" seen an insignificant increase compared to what it should've in the same time frame.

GayFluffyUnicornJan 8, 20184 votes

The western playerbase definitely sunken over the years. NA for example has only half the ranked players left EU has. NA when always a bit smaller usually was a few hundred thousand lower. Now it's the half. Unfortunately everyone who did 10 placement and stopped playing is counted towards the ranked playerbase so i guess you can take like 1/3 away to get the actual active numbers. Normal or overall playerbase stats don't exist tho. Just assume it dropped massively otherwise riot wouldnt do so much to reduce q times, get new players to play, make the game more accessible etc. I also would never trust chinese numbers. Remember the streamers with 100 million viewers?

AhrisJan 7, 201825 votes

Can you give me source for: Ghostcrawler "you dont need to play the game to design it".

Admitting that he doesnt even play League. You cant balance if you never play. You will simply make champs VERY unfun as you will have no idea about a champ and looking to nerf anything of a champ without understanding it as you will look at numbers and nerfing accordingly.

SlythionJan 7, 20186 votes

{quoted}

Can you give me source for: Ghostcrawler "you dont need to play the game to design it".

Admitting that he doesnt even play League. You cant balance if you never play. You will simply make champs VERY unfun as you will have no idea about a champ and looking to nerf anything of a champ without understanding it as you will look at numbers and nerfing accordingly.

I mean, the quote does make sense to a degree. It paints the picture that anyone can just balance league with no game knowledge, but what he was probably getting at is you can compare past balance changes and trends to determine what and how to address the game in the sense of balance.

Do I believe it's workable in real life? probably not, but in theory it makes sense.

OxyrottenJan 7, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I mean, the quote does make sense to a degree. It paints the picture that anyone can just balance league with no game knowledge, but what he was probably getting at is you can compare past balance changes and trends to determine what and how to address the game in the sense of balance.

Do I believe it's workable in real life? probably not, but in theory it makes sense.

Your forgetting that an element of design should be an enjoyable experience.

rtbf209043285Jan 8, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Can you give me source for: Ghostcrawler "you dont need to play the game to design it".

Admitting that he doesnt even play League. You cant balance if you never play. You will simply make champs VERY unfun as you will have no idea about a champ and looking to nerf anything of a champ without understanding it as you will look at numbers and nerfing accordingly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UcEbu7_zEw Have fun torturing yourself, this is a legit disgusting half an hour video that can give you an hint of what we have to expect in future.

PePsiLemoNNJan 7, 201810 votes

People 3 weeks ago : ''Leona/Ali are so much fun , fuck Janna/Lulu''.

People already whining about tank supps , called it.

AbibyamaJan 7, 20186 votes

Also

2012-2013: Fucking Morello ruining the game 2017-2018: Fucking Meddler ruining the game bring back Morello

Clowns SuckJan 8, 20182 votes

Didn't know what we had until we lost it. Life lesson right there.

ModAcademy KaynJan 7, 20187 votes

I haven't played an ounce of Softball, yet I've professionally Umpired for the game for over 4 years now, and even more while I was still learning. Why? Because being an Umpire is about understanding the rules of the game, being observant, and having good judgement. You play Softball to learn the mechanics of the game, not the rules.

If I had a softball for every time I heard a kid or coach complain about a rule that they've never read, I'd have un-ordinarily large amount of softballs for someone who doesn't play the game to have. Being able to hit a ball does not impact my ability to be an Umpire, nor does it have any influence on how I call my games. Being able to slide home does not affect my ability to make a judgement about an interference.

What matters, what truly matters, is whether or not you have an interest in the game. While I do not play Softball, I enjoy watching it. I find a great deal pleasure in Umpiring it, and to a slight degree, taking a ball to the thigh for the... ump-teenth time cause of some cute young kid trying to pitch for their second time. If you don't even have an interest in the game, than you will fail as an Ump, and as a designer.

That is the key difference.

CavemanteroJan 7, 201810 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RExOPLmE,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-01-07T14:41:23.227+0000)

I haven't played an ounce of Softball, yet I've professionally Umpired for the game for over 4 years now, and even more while I was still learning. Why? Because being an Umpire is about understanding the rules of the game, being observant, and having good judgement. You play Softball to learn the mechanics of the game, not the rules.

If I had a softball for every time I heard a kid or coach complain about a rule that they've never read, I'd have un-ordinarily large amount of softballs for someone who doesn't play the game to have. Being able to hit a ball does not impact my ability to be an Umpire, nor does it have any influence on how I call my games. Being able to slide home does not affect my ability to make a judgement about an interference.

What matters, what truly matters, is whether or not you have an interest in the game. While I do not play Softball, I enjoy watching it. I find a great deal pleasure in Umpiring it, and to a slight degree, taking a ball to the thigh for the... ump-teenth time cause of some cute young kid trying to pitch for their second time. If you don't even have an interest in the game, than you will fail as an Ump, and as a designer.

That is the key difference.

Except as an ump you aren't the person in charge of balancing or designing the game. You simply make sure that rules that are in place and have been already setup to be balanced in order to keep the game FAIR are adhered to by both teams. The horrible thing about games like baseball/softball is the ump's personal take on strike zones which is about as subjective as it gets...but at least that's all you have power over. All the other rules are pretty much set in stone albeit the very uncommon ones that rarely influence games.

In relation, Ghostcrawler's 'strike zones' are MASSIVE for certain champs and MICROSCOPIC for others. That is a blatant issue that hasn't been resolved for 3 seasons now and is GETTING WORSE. The same thing happened in WoW where everyone ran this guy out because of how he used a magic 8-ball to balance the game rather than his skill as a designer/umpire whatever you want to call it.

It is bad when what Ghostcrawler would do WAS PREDICTED before he even had an impact on LoL. Now, we are all paying for this mess: Stale metas, turrets that can be dove under at levels 1-3. Bot lane domination of teamfights. The ridiculous snowballing. Everyone has assassin burst. The cry for surrenders because there is no thick skin in 80% of the player base. Basic UNFUN gameplay in normals/ranked. Little to No tug of war aspect or challenge which is what MOBAs actually were orginally designed to be. All these new champs that have some kind of invunerable mechanic tied into their kit...

When is it going to stop?

GayFluffyUnicornJan 8, 20182 votes

preach it.

ahferroin7Jan 7, 20186 votes

I will comment that Ghostcrawler technically is correct. You don't need to play a game to design it. You absolutely need to understand it however, and it quite often feels like the developers don't understand it.

As far as Meddler's opinion on Blitz, I would actually agree with that for the vast majority of the player base. Keep in mind that 80% of players are not at or above the level where Alistair and Leona are seen as a pick or ban every game. Blitz has:

Insane pick ability against people who aren't good at dodging skillshots.
Reasonably high safety because he doesn't have to go in to make a pick.
Mediocre peel.
Mediocre survivability solo.

In contrast, Leona has:

Good pick ability against anyone.
Great peel.
Very good damage for a support focused tank.
Somewhat insane solo survivability.
Very high risk, as she pretty much has to go in to make a pick.

And Alistair has:

Insane pick ability against people who are severely out of position.
Insane peel.
Built in healing.
Very good solo survivability.
Reasonably high risk because he has to put himself out of position to pick targets.

In short, Blitz is a low risk, high reward character at low tier play where people can't really dodge worth crap and don't do a very good job of focusing down specific targets, but ends up being a liability at high tier play where people are good at dodging and very much tend to focus specific targets (most notably the Blitz). Such champs end up being a serious pain in the arse for most players, and quite often terrorize alternate game modes (Seriously, Blitz is a top priority ban on Legend of the Poro King at all tiers of play because it's hard as hell to dodge reliably on such a narrow map).

In contrast, Leona and Alistair are high risk, high reward characters at all tiers who both bring a lot of utility to a team. Champs like that are really popular at top-tier play (See Lee Sin for another example), but generally aren't a significant issue for most players regardless of what level of play they are at (provided they aren't being played by smurfs). They tend to be banned a lot in high-level play just as much to screw up one-trick ponies as they are to avoid having to deal with them.

Note that I'm not saying Leona and Alistair aren't an issue right now (anything on the level of 100% pick/ban is an issue), just that 'fixing' Blitzcrank is going to make a lot more people happy than dealing with Leona or Alistar will.

VerxintJan 7, 20185 votes

The game should not be balanced around bad people. If you don't do that, they will eventually develop their own ways to handle it. One of Riots biggest problems is that they often nerf trends before people have really had enough time to learn to play against it, and at this point much of the playerbase expects that and rarely tries to adapt

CowseedJan 7, 20186 votes

you dont need to play the game to design it

Well show me an Airplane Design company where every employee is a pilot and then I might consider this a valid argument.

AbibyamaJan 7, 20185 votes

They’re nerfing Aftershock before nerfing blitz. Check Reddit

And morello isn’t that much better

AhristocatsJan 7, 201816 votes

meddler said that alistar doesn't have a blitz's lvl of impact, when alistar is a better blitzcrank in any way

just because blitz can hook a squishy doesn't mean he has more impact, that hook is unreliable af and can give a free engage to the enemy tank

Alistar is Overpowered as hell

Way more overpowered than ornn or zoe, this should tell you something

he holds a 53% win rate and 20% pick rate

AhrisJan 7, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=I am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RExOPLmE,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-01-07T10:12:55.525+0000)

meddler said that alistar doesn't have a blitz's lvl of impact, when alistar is a better blitzcrank in any way

just because blitz can hook a squishy doesn't mean he has more impact, that hook is unreliable af and can give a free engage to the enemy tank

Alistar is Overpowered as hell

Way more overpowered than ornn or zoe, this should tell you something

he holds a 53% win rate and 20% pick rate

I believe blitz is more unfun as one hook from more distance than alistar's combo. Alistar has to walk up to you so that he is close enough to you. This opens room for more counterplay and alistar will be going into the enemy team rather than being pulled to your team. Which is more fair i'd guess

AhristocatsJan 7, 201816 votes

no it isn't

alistar stays close to his adc and no one can ever touch the adc because of his autolocked spells additionally alistar is way more unfun to lane against than blitz

youcan stay behind minions with blitz, alistar has point and click spells that go through minions, less mana costs, has infinity sustain and can roam mid faster than blitz and gank better

ArakadiaJan 7, 20189 votes

Yeah but Alistar doesn't pull you away from your own support when he CC chains you. And doesn't have massive base damages to back it up.

AhristocatsJan 7, 20182 votes

where do you see chain cc? i see only a single knock up

blitz's damage is the only thing that prevents him from being trash his entire kit is garbage, his teamfighting is literally 0

blitz's entire purpose is his Q WHICH IS NOT GOOD because if you pick alistar you just block any hook he does and get a free engage

so: on one side you have blitz doing something unreliable on the other side you have alistar doing something reliably (protecting his adc) but also more reliable engage more reliable laning phase (sustain ect..) more reliable roaming more tankiness

alistar has more impact than blitzcrank

DivewingJan 7, 20188 votes

Debateable.

Blitzcranks issue is that he is toxic. It is either "This Blitz won the game with a single hook", or "this Blitz couldn't land a toy plane let alone a hook".

Alistars issue is he's overpowered, and needs numbers re-adjusted so he doesnt both peel AND engage (or headbutt-pulv could just be removed)

AirKingNeoJan 7, 20183 votes

I swear Alistar was a common pick as worlds.

ArakadiaJan 7, 20183 votes

Blitz has better pick potential if he lands his hook though. Thats something Alistar doesn't do better, even though he is overpowered.

TheThundersRoarJan 7, 201829 votes

We trash-talked Morello for being silver back in the day but...

The guy had a firm stance on power creep and kept the game in check, no matter how much he got roasted.

AbibyamaJan 7, 201822 votes

Morello got the same amount of shit back in 2012-2013 as Meddler if not more

Regardless of who’s gonna the head of live game design. People gonna be always unhappy it seems

AhristocatsJan 7, 201825 votes

you're right

and i used to be one of them

but when you see what other people can do instead of morello, you suddenly think that morello wasn't so bad actually and there can be worse

AzeranthJan 7, 201810 votes

You don't know what you have until it's gone. Morello was so good, he created the foundation on which all balance should be based, the subclass system, which defined clear trade-off and benefits that should and shouldn't be in the same kit. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Ai1Vj5Ee-design-philosophy

GayFluffyUnicornJan 7, 201812 votes

The rank really doesn't matter as long as you play the game you design regularly to ATLEAST have a grasp of how it is to play with or against certain things. The other stuff you can get from high elo player experience. GC and Meddler on the other hand say you don't need to play the game to design it. It's very fuckin obvious they don't play the game they design.

D4M2X0Jan 7, 20185 votes

just cause youve qualified for a job doesnt mean ur fit for it and they are proving it. i laughed when i saw they added blitz at the end of the nerf list and not even mentioning leona/alistar. they aint at risk of losing their job nor does league have a game that competes with it thats why the balance team can do random shit.

to qualify for the balance team you should actualy be an active league player and maining champs that arent disgusting by design, but apparently you dont have to play league to balance it.

Daddy AntsJan 7, 20185 votes

Blitz being nerfed before Alistar Leona ?

What a joke.

ArakadiaJan 7, 20183 votes

What type of supports are healthy to be meta? Enchanters were horrible. Now tank supports are as well. I'm worried about when catchers become meta.

VerxintJan 7, 20186 votes

Supports are healthy when fights aren't so volatile. It used to be that Enchanters had to consistently be on point with multiple shields and peels in order to enable their adc. It used to be that tank supports had to pick their engages and/or fight through more than one cc rotation to win. Now we have a situation where Leona or Ali land one CC and their target vaporizes, or an enchanter gets one shield off and the adc kills the threat without kiting in seconds. The problems with supports are a manifestation of the volatile state of the game itself.