Boards›Gameplay

Karthus's Q has no indicator when casting: Reasons why, and why it should.

The Ecdysiast··6 votes·4,147 views

Let's talk about why it doesn't currently. Namely, it has an extremely short cooldown for a ranged ability. And the other reason being, I think, that it's simply left over from problems with his original animations-- his VU being one of only four that had no ability changes whatsoever (the others being Heimerdinger, Twitch and Annie). The old animation was extremely misleading for the enemy, having the same AoE that it currently does, but with a warning animation less than a quarter of the explosion radius, as you can see here:

https://i.imgur.com/EqeImTi.png

(I tried my best to size things correctly) But as you can see, the new animation actually shows the circumference from the start of the cast all the way until the animation is finished. With nothing but the tiny orange skittle at the start of the cast, the original animation was incredibly unfair, but was made more fair by the caster being just as uninformed about the radius as the enemy.

The new animation actually solved all the issues that made the forced-quickcast necessary in the first place:

  • Since it's no longer misleading to the enemy, the caster doesn't need to be uninformed to compensate.
  • And while it does have a short cooldown, that was only unfair when the enemy was mislead by the visual. Now that they are shown the radius as soon as the cast animation starts, rather than only when it pops, they can sidestep or dodge it reliably.

Conclusion: The forced quickcast-without-indicator for Karthus's Q is outdated, as its new (2014) animation fixed all the issues that made it necessary in the first place. Effectively, the enemy now has more of an indicator than you do as Karthus-- since they get the whole cast time to react to the ability, while you don't get the indicator before casting to see whether or not you're actually only hitting one enemy if they're grouped, or if you're even casting it in range.

Solution: Take away the forced quickcast, and give the ability the indicator it's supposed to have. If someone wants it the old way, that'd still be an option in controls.

I'd also like to note that it is a major outlier as far as quickast abilities are concerned. It is one of only two forced-quickcast ranged abilities, the other being Yasuo's tornado. And it is the only forced-quickcast ability in the game with a delay. The rest are instant-cast self-target AoE abilities, which makes sense since they're generally on melee champions who will be in range of their target anyway.

And this is one case where the opinions of people who main the champion would actually be a detriment to the discussion, as they have the most practice overcoming this unnecessary disadvantage and may say it has less of an effect than it truly does.

12 Comments

Xavîer 2 votes

{quoted}

Let's talk about why it doesn't currently. Namely, it has an extremely short cooldown for a ranged ability. And the other reason being, I think, that it's simply left over from problems with his original animations-- his VU being one of only four that had no ability changes whatsoever (the others being Heimerdinger, Twitch and Annie). The old animation was extremely misleading for the enemy, having the same AoE that it currently does, but with a warning animation less than a quarter of the explosion radius, as you can see here:

https://i.imgur.com/EqeImTi.png

(I tried my best to size things correctly) But as you can see, the new animation actually shows the circumference from the start of the cast all the way until the animation is finished. With nothing but the tiny orange skittle at the start of the cast, the original animation was incredibly unfair, but was made more fair by the caster being just as uninformed about the radius as the enemy.

The new animation actually solved all the issues that made the forced-quickcast necessary in the first place:

  • Since it's no longer misleading to the enemy, the caster doesn't need to be uninformed to compensate.
  • And while it does have a short cooldown, that was only unfair when the enemy was mislead by the visual. Now that they are shown the radius as soon as the cast animation starts, rather than only when it pops, they can sidestep or dodge it reliably.

Conclusion: The forced quickcast-without-indicator for Karthus's Q is outdated, as its new (2014) animation fixed all the issues that made it necessary in the first place. Effectively, the enemy now has more of an indicator than you do as Karthus-- since they get the whole cast time to react to the ability, while you don't get the indicator before casting to see whether or not you're actually only hitting one enemy if they're grouped, or if you're even casting it in range.

Solution: Take away the forced quickcast, and give the ability the indicator it's supposed to have. If someone wants it the old way, that'd still be an option in controls.

I'd also like to note that it is a major outlier as far as quickast abilities are concerned. It is one of only two forced-quickcast ranged abilities, the other being Yasuo's tornado. And it is the only forced-quickcast ability in the game with a delay. The rest are instant-cast self-target AoE abilities, which makes sense since they're generally on melee champions who will be in range of their target anyway.

And this is one case where the opinions of people who main the champion would actually be a detriment to the discussion, as they have the most practice overcoming this unnecessary disadvantage and may say it has less of an effect than it truly does.

monkies

Critmaster Garen1 votes

im pretty sure the old aoe indicator was accurate. the reason why it looked larger, is because champion hitboxes are jank.

champion hitboxes are circular and invisible on the ground, and not collision boxes with the champions model.

this often leads to situations where a skillshot didnt even touch you, but still connected. especially since many champion hitboxes are larger than your champions model.

so it often looks like the skillshot indicator is inaccurate, when its the champion that was hit by it.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rytcktav,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-10-04T08:25:41.059+0000)

im pretty sure the old aoe indicator was accurate. the reason why it looked larger, is because champion hitboxes are jank.

champion hitboxes are circular and invisible on the ground, and not collision boxes with the champions model.

this often leads to situations where a skillshot didnt even touch you, but still connected. especially since many champion hitboxes are larger than your champions model.

so it often looks like the skillshot indicator is inaccurate, when its the champion that was hit by it.

No, I was talking about the initial animation. The old explosion was accurate, as I showed in the image. What wasn't was the wind-up animation, the little orange skittle is all the enemy got to warn them about the explosion. But now the wind-up animation includes the circumference so it's much clearer for the enemy.

I actually went and re-did the pic for you.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

No, I was talking about the initial animation. The old explosion was accurate, as I showed in the image. What wasn't was the wind-up animation, the little orange skittle is all the enemy got to warn them about the explosion. But now the wind-up animation includes the circumference so it's much clearer for the enemy.

oh, i mean that could be easily fixed though.

you could already have the indicator pop up during the windup animation.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rytcktav,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-04T08:29:47.429+0000)

oh, i mean that could be easily fixed though.

you could already have the indicator pop up during the windup animation.

That's... exactly... what they did... I'm showing you the difference between the old and the current, emphasizing the fact that the current does in fact do exactly that--- for the enemy.

The issue I'm trying to explain, though, is that the ability is quickcast by default and you aren't allowed to have an indicator as Karthus, despite the fact the enemy now gets even more of an indication of the ability's area than you do as the caster. And that's not fair to Karthus.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

That's... exactly... what they did... I'm showing you the difference between the old and the current, emphasizing the fact that the current does in fact do exactly that--- for the enemy.

The issue I'm trying to explain, though, is that the ability is quickcast by default and you aren't allowed to have an indicator as Karthus, despite the fact the enemy now gets even more of an indication of the ability's area than you do as the caster. And that's not fair to Karthus.

srry, i was confused by the images. im not a karthus main, so i dont see that animation a lot. (also pretty tired right now)

i thought the one on the right was the old animation for some reason.

but dont you see the same indicator as karthus when the animation is playing? how does that equate to the enemy getting more information than you?

as far as i understand, you want to be able to turn off smartcast and use the q like any other skillshot with an indicator, and smartcast turned off.

i mean. why not? but personally i dont see the point, as youd only be slowing yourself down when youre trying to spam it.

makes more sense to learn the area of your q until you know it intuitively, since pressing one button is faster than pressing it, adjusting your mouse and then left clicking. but, hey. whatever floats your boat. i dont see why it shouldnt be made possible to turn off either.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rytcktav,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-04T08:45:16.892+0000)

srry, i was confused by the images. im not a karthus main, so i dont see that animation a lot. (also pretty tired right now)

i thought the one on the right was the old animation for some reason.

but dont you see the same indicator as karthus when the animation is playing? how does that equate to the enemy getting more information than you?

as far as i understand, you want to be able to turn off smartcast and use the q like any other skillshot with an indicator, and smartcast turned off.

i mean. why not? but personally i dont see the point, as youd only be slowing yourself down when youre trying to spam it.

makes more sense to learn the area of your q until you know it intuitively, since pressing one button is faster than pressing it, adjusting your mouse and then left clicking. but, hey. whatever floats your boat. i dont see why it shouldnt be made possible to turn off either.

The enemy gets more of an indication during the part that matters to them, while you have no indication during the part that matters to you.

That is: when you want to cast the ability, there is no range indicator if you'r trying to cast it at max range, and there is no area indicator if you want to try hitting a single enemy in/near a group for the extra damage. Once you've clicked, there's no changing it.

On the enemy's side: once Karthus casts his Q, you have half a second to dodge it, with its AoE very clear to you so you know if you've walked/dashed far enough.

As for it "slowing you down", it really doesn't. If you're spamming the ability, you need to lift your finger off the key anyway. It doesn't just continuously cast by being held down. Even so, if you feel like it's slowing you down you can just change it back to quickcast without the indicator. There's no downside to changing it.

Hethalean1 votes

Yeah, the same thing was with Cassiopeia Q. They fixed it with the mage class update, but decided not to with Karthus for some reason.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, the same thing was with Cassiopeia Q. They fixed it with the mage class update, but decided not to with Karthus for some reason.

Yeah. It just makes no sense for abilities that aren't self-cast aoe.

Bârd1 votes

There's also Twitch for pure visual updates.

He got a gameplay one later, but his spells only received visibility changes and new names while functioning the exact same.

BobaFlautist1 votes

Quickcast isn't a disadvantage, it's a superior way to use almost every ability.

Whether or not it should be forced is up for debate, but your central premise, that his Q is forced quick cast to weaken it is fundamentally wrong, it's to make it smoother and more practical to repeatedly use the skill without having to button mash as much.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

Quickcast isn't a disadvantage, it's a superior way to use almost every ability.

Whether or not it should be forced is up for debate, but your central premise, that his Q is forced quick cast to weaken it is fundamentally wrong, it's to make it smoother and more practical to repeatedly use the skill without having to button mash as much.

Which is why Quickcast With Indicator has been the default setting for several years now.

And your central argument is in fact false. It is no easier to use quickcast without the indicator than it is with. It's untrue unless you have literally sticky keys, stopping you from pressing and letting go of the key in the same motion-- something that you need to do for spamming an ability anyway, so it is functionally the same even in those cases.

Perhaps I'm misinformed, and there was a point where there was no option to quickcast with indicators. That would make it reasonable to force quickcast on an ability. But as far as I know, there wasn't. So the idea that it was made forced quickcast to make it smoother despite you having the option to do that anyway if you feel it isn't smooth enough doesn't stand to reason.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by The Ecdysiast

Please Add Black Market Brawlers to the Rotation
Gameplay97 comments
273
votes
No chest for S- if a lobby member is punished
Report a Bug89 comments
212
votes
590 RP is not 6300 IP (Rune Page Cost inequality)
Gameplay100 comments
207
votes
Solari "rejected all other forms of light as false"
Story, Art, & Sound96 comments
160
votes
PSA that Soraka does %HP True damage
Gameplay96 comments
150
votes
They should keep this Yasuo "bug"
Gameplay201 comments
136
votes