Thresh is nearing 40% pick rate with a 53%+ win rate...

Rexxiee·Jul 3, 2017·79 votes·3,916 views

So arent those stats alone a huge red flag that something needs to be done, and quickly?

What is riot waiting for honestly?This has been going for over a month already, Im surprised his ban rate isnt 100% already as statisically thresh is the most overpowered champ in the game in the last few patches other than zac/nunu recently.

If someone like riven had anywhere near those ridiculous stats she would get hotfix nerfed, its pretty funny, but hey hes a support AND hes part of the unholy trinity that riot refuses to give meaninful nerfs (lee, thresh and lucian) and if he ever gets any nerfs on the pbe the reddit brigade will storm in and cry about how he just has those stats because hes "fun" and how hes the most "balanced champ" in the game and on how he should be buffed instead of nerfed.

134 Comments

Big LincolnJul 3, 201745 votes

if any top or mid laner had those stats they'd probably be dumpstered, not just riven. but supports can do no wrong unless they're a mage support

i ban thresh every game and it makes life much better

nice tableJul 3, 20177 votes

riven is actually getting pretty close with 52,8% win ratio and 16% play rate

AirKingNeoJul 3, 20174 votes

Yeah I have no clue why they refuse to nerf her.

TheMoralSupportJul 3, 201716 votes

cough Dawnbringer cough is still cough kinda new cough

MyRivenAccountJul 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Yeah I have no clue why they refuse to nerf her.

riven isn't the problem, Deaths dance is

UltîmaJul 4, 20172 votes

And yet they're nerfing Fiora anyway...

HaIlMonitorJul 4, 20171 votes

What makes deaths dance the problem? I see this a lot when people talk about riven and draven but they were both extremely strong before DD.

SenzaRespiro89Jul 3, 20174 votes

Because riot simply doesn't nerf popular posterchamps like riven.

Bouncemaster ZacJul 3, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rx5ExhcA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-07-03T02:19:07.881+0000)

if any top or mid laner had those stats they'd probably be dumpstered, not just riven. but supports can do no wrong unless they're a mage support

i ban thresh every game and it makes life much better

Shit I remember right after Sona's last rework (the one that removed the passive permanent auras) her fanbase was screaming about how Riot hated her and wanted her unplayable and how desperately she needed buffs now... all while the rework had shot her up to a 64% winrate overnight. Supports can't be op, they're the 'oppressed' class.

hhaavviikkJul 3, 201733 votes

thresh is the lee sin of supports so the chances of him being nerfed are very small

Athenes LuluJul 3, 201723 votes

you just made an anti support thread

SOMEONE BURN THE WITCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111!!11!!!1!!!!!1!

ZaneShadowJul 3, 20174 votes

Hahaha, awesome +1

Ya I'm a support main, but even I agree thresh is too strong. I like to list 3-4 supports I'm practicing at the time and let the adc pick. About 50% of the time they say "pick Thresh". I don't even own him, and dread seeing him on the enemy team.

I apologize for my species of support board people that your post is totally justified. We play a unloved role and just want some respect 😭. Though seriously, a small joke at us/champions is totally cool.

Lothàrs EdgeJul 3, 20171 votes

Uhh..

Thresh/Blitz/Soraka/Morg/Janna

are all very, very good at what they're suppose to do.

Thresh = Peel. Blitz = Pick off & burst. Soraka = Heal heal heal, & heal Morg = Spellshield stops your shit while having solid damage Janna = Disengage? Disengage again, boost ADC dmg (cough Draven) & heal.

It Hertz When IPJul 3, 20174 votes

Thresh does way more than peel, dude.... Try adding disengage and engage to his list. This on top of the team shielding that most supports field via items these days.

ZephyrDrakeJul 3, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rx5ExhcA,comment-id=000e000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-03T18:14:33.439+0000)

Thresh does way more than peel, dude.... Try adding disengage and engage to his list. This on top of the team shielding that most supports field via items these days.

team shielding... "shielding the first ally to come near it for up to 4 seconds" his shield only applies to ONE ally and due to the nature of it in a crowded teamfight it might not even shield the person you want to shield. Also disengage and peel are pretty much the exact same thing

It Hertz When IPJul 3, 20172 votes

item 3190

C'mon, man, I even specifed "VIA ITEMS".... it's not that hard to read the whole post. It's barely even two lines....

MegagonJul 3, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rx5ExhcA,comment-id=000e000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-03T18:14:33.439+0000)

Thresh does way more than peel, dude.... Try adding disengage and engage to his list. This on top of the team shielding that most supports field via items these days.

You are being downvoted,because you have triggered the almighty support gods and their adc overlords. Suffer for your sins.

It Hertz When IPJul 3, 20172 votes

Which makes no sense, cause any idiot checking my match history can see I'm a support main.

Athenes LuluJul 3, 20172 votes

I'm a proud ~~Lulu onetrick~~ support main and I'm not ashamed to make fun of myself.

On a more serious note he has been THE most popular support since release, with the exception of a few times where enchanters were overtuned for a while (hello Sona and Lulu). A lot of that popularity came from the fact that he can do almost anything and everything without really having to give up much, including mobility. On top of a goofy hitbox that hooks yordles 2 Teemos away.

Fine, be overloaded because we have seen plenty of similar cases regarding Lulu as well, but at least fix his hitboxes. And hopefully watch as the skillfloor shoot higher up.

SociopathFriendJul 3, 201715 votes

So arent those stats alone a huge red flag that something needs to be done, and quickly?

Contrary to popular belief, Riot doesn't just fire nerfs and buffs because of pick and win rate.

Thresh is going to remain a high priority pick regardless of how much you gut his skills- the W is THE GAMECHANGING ABILITY of League of Legends. Anyone, any single champion, regardless of mana, health, cooldowns, summoners, can be pulled from a bad situation.

Does Thresh do other things? Yeah- but the W alone means his pick rate is assured to stay high. Nobody else has such a get-out-of-jail free card with an equal range and cooldown. They could straight-up remove the shield and it would barely effect the ability except it would be maxed dead-last. He's also ranged, which means he can bully tanky supports if they don't go in and bust him.

A high win and pick rate doesn't mean the champion is broken. Thresh has counterplay available for every ability active- he is a "fair" champion. If he lands the Q, jumps to you, and E's you towards the carry while ulting- that's literally just as fair as any combo kit. They all have an ability that locks you down so they can use the rest of it on you.

However, a few things that might make him less dominant:

Range. Thresh's Q and W allow him to influence a fight from an extreme distance, have these scale slightly with rank, level, souls, anything- just enough to give him a bit of a nerf early on. Maybe you could even make his AA range grow with ranks in E but subsequently reduce it slightly at earlier levels?
Squishyness. Currently Thresh is strong because Support items just keep improving. If enemy laners aren't able/willing to bully him off of the souls- he will rapidly grow beyond their control since he will buy tank items and negate his main weakness of being squishy. A slight rate in how quickly the souls spawn would be another slight nerf to keep his early game down since he gains armor from them- which directly helps against the enemy ADC.
Harass. A slight tap to his total HP, HP growth per level, or HP regen could make any poke he takes a bit more potent, ensuring he has to either make his play or try harder to avoid damage.

Again, I don't think he needs nerfs, I think he's not unhealthy and, dare I say it, fairly balanced. The winrate isn't only reflective of his kit, but also the playerbase, the items, and all of those same things for his opposing supports.

Also, something I think that's seldom addressed is what I would call, "Experience creep". There are many champions who are reliant on skilled play to make the best use of them. But the longer the game goes on (the actual game, the higher the percentage of the playerbase with enough experience and skill to make those plays will rise.

Thresh is fairly old, the playerbase has been learning his tricks for years now, skill floors can only hold you back for so long; eventually people will just get better at playing him.

sobi999Jul 3, 20178 votes

I am a support main that prefers to play utility supports and damnnn i must say. Thresh and Blitz have just made our life miserable, they are strong in lane, outside lane and tanky af. Not to mention they hurt as well and scale all too well. If anything i would want to see them nerfed.

Its funny how enchanters have to steadily avoid all damage, heal, shield allies and what not but all thresh and blitz need to do in lane is to hook once and its 1 kill there. Its ridiculous how many hooks you can dodge and all it takes is 1 hook for the enemy to get ahead. Not to mention the enemy adc is farming at ease while thresh pressurizes. its cancer and this is mostly why i go mage supports bot lane so i can kick their as*s. Riot refuses to make its games less cancerous hence why you see mage supports even being a thing at bot lane.

TheMoralSupportJul 3, 20172 votes

Preach.

ZaneShadowJul 3, 20172 votes

I'm so happy to hear 1. Another support main 2. That you have the same problem. They have long ish cooldowns but it's hard to punish a missed hook, considering its range. I'd love to see a range nerf to both abilities and then hard buffs to the rest of their kit.

DisembarkJul 4, 20173 votes

Lol. So mage supports can be meta for over a season and melee supports get constantly shit on but the second engage supports are back in the meta they're too oppressive?

Thresh is squishy and has no sustain. He will get shit on if he doesn't land his hook. If he tries to pressure with Flay he should in auto range and also he WILL lose the trade against someone like Janna or Lulu. Once he gets chunked once he cant pressure anymore, and is completely worthless.

Blitz has an 18 sec CD on hook. Also if you understand the lane you'll understand that you should shove Blitz into tower because he thrives in the middle of the lane (especially with bushes). He has shit wave assist, no poke, no sustain. Shove his ass into tower and if he needs to land a hook he's gonna have to be obvious as shit walking past the minion wave.

Also they both get MASSIVELY outscaled by enchanters. They rely on snowballing and pressure, but if they're not ahead an enchanter heavily outscales them. Peel/Shields/Heals/Buffs onto your ADC is way more worth - as at that point ardent censor n shit will make your ADCs dps skyrocket (same with Lulu and Janna) versus a Blitz or Thresh where they can pray to get a hook on a carry before they get deleted (especially thresh, he's still pretty squishy)

sobi999Jul 4, 20171 votes

I would have to disagree with you. Melee champs get shit on by adc that have range not because they are overshadowed by enchanters. The problem specifically with thresh and blitz is how cancerous they are. You say thresh is squishy then maybe you need to look into how squishy soraka, janna, lulu are. Firstly both blitz and thresh do not even need to come into AA range to hook. They both sit in the fkn bush 24/7, making us waste our wards and practice hooking. They rinse and repeat this until they land 1 hook and ggwp.

I do know how to counter blitz but you cannot push a wave when the enemy is also trying his best to push his wave. Sadly not every adc is cooperative enough to understand this and all they want is to farm. I would also have you know that most enchanters have a terrible early laning phase whereas a lvl 2-3 blitz hook is enough to kill the adc (with some backup from enemy adc). I have beaten multiple thresh and blitz (mastery 7) but the problem still stems from their cancerous laning phase. If you are trying to counter them, they are also trying to prevent you from countering them. Its an equilibrium.

Lastly i think by scaling you mean the support items. Most enchanters scale well because of their insane synergy with support items. The top two support items (Solari and redemption) complement thresh just as well as they complement any other enchanter. I do believe Ardent is a very good choice for enchanters but then again, the adc has to be competent enough to make use of its passive. Nonetheless, the peeling and utility that thresh provides is incomparable and if enchanters go athenes or ardent then they are pretty squishy and have to avoid all forms of damage. The issue still is their laning phase which is all about landing as many hooks as possible. People say blitz is useless outside lane but i disagree, i've seen numerous blitz's carry the game as being support. I don't see them weak outside lane for being so dominant in lane. They should have a pay off.

DisembarkJul 11, 20171 votes

Soraka and Janna are squishy but they don't need to be healthy. A low HP Thresh going in is free 300 gold.

Ugh. Your whole post is based off of your lack of understanding of the lane.

You claim Thresh/Blitz are cancerous but you know what I think is cancerous? Janna making you lose trades even IF you hit a hook. Soraka making trading pointless. Lulu and Karma making you lose every trade while chunky you for half your health and having long range point and click cc. Also speed up and large shields. They all have their downfalls too, but you wouldn't understand them unless you play them.

You claim Thresh/Blitz sit in a bush and keep going for hooks, but WHY DO YOU LET THEM DO THAT? First of all your NEVER want your wave in a spot where an engage support can abuse a Brush. Second you punish them for continuously fishing. They miss 2-3 hooks they should get punished enough to make the next hook make them lose the 2v2.

For Blitz:

if Blitz fails his 18 second trickin cooldown hook he's completely worthless. You're Soraka? Get 3 Qs on the enemy adc. Punish Blitz behind your minions. Punish him for going for targons stacks. If his ADC is sitting at half health, him hooking you just fks his ADC. Lulu/Karma/Soraka can easily force them out of lane at that point.

Don't put yourself in a position to get hooked unless you know you win the 2c2 regardless. Literally just respect Blitz hook and you win the game. He said completely reliant on getting picks because his teamfighting is garbage. He has 1 long cooldown ability and then he's worthless. He's only good when you catch someone out of position - his pick potential is unrivaled.

Thresh is completely different. His lane phase is probably his best part. His flay is very strong for trading and he has a LOT of damage from his passive.

He's completely reliant on snowballing though. If his team isn't winning, half the time him landing a hook equals death for him.

He just becomes a lantern bot late game and DENIES picks. He's like the complete opposite of Blitz late game. His role isn't so aggressively hook but rather sit on his ADC and make sure they don't die.

But he's much worse than Janna/Soraka/.Karma in that regard.

Remember l, Thresh is the easiest champion to bait into his death in the game.

MunchCrunchLunchJul 3, 20177 votes

hes overloaded. not much to say. he has the lane of a range support and mid late game of a melee support. while having the safety of a ranged support with the tankiness of a melee support

too many words. but you get my point.

Linna ExcelJul 3, 20174 votes

"Obviously Thresh is the problem, not caitlyn." - rito... probably.

Because ADCs.

Dasdi96Jul 3, 20173 votes

Yes he is so busted right now. He has an extremely strong level 2 with q, e, and summoner 14 as well as insane roaming potential. His cc is enough to make a melee champion useless in a teamfight completely since he builds 40% cdr.

JunkοJul 3, 20173 votes

Thresh is pure utility and relies on team, if other champs like Riven had this pick rate and winrate it would mean their damage is so reliable and oppressive that there is no reason to pick them over another champion of the same class( Caitlyn Caitlyn Caitlyn ) which is why they would be nerfed.

Also honestly, idk what they could even nerf about Thresh at this point. Maybe remove E passive so he can't use Targons anymore, but other than that his damage has honestly already been gutted across the board, and if you nerf his utility he is useless. And honestly Thresh isn't even a problem that much, it's the other tank and utility supports that are too weak, what was the last time you saw Leona or Braum played?

boba drinker Jul 3, 20173 votes

A typical person who probably got dumpstered by good Thresh player. His pure utility playstyle isn't "OP" He's in a good spot right now.

TargonJul 3, 20172 votes

I try to ban Thresh most of the time (unless someone else on my team banned him first). It feels very oppressive playing against a half-decent Thresh - similar to laning against Yasuo to be honest. One wrong step in the laning phase by the ADC or support and you'll probably either burn a flash, heal, or lose over half your health.

I think Thresh is a bit overloaded to be honest. He has good engage, peel, and set-up and is almost never a bad support pick.

Dark Star LuxJul 3, 20172 votes

As someone who played a lot of tresh i agree he is too strong but you know what? Before directly nerfing him fix his q and even e hitbox i swear to god 30% or more of my abilities schould miss but they act like heat seeking missles, going through minions and hooking someone who is like 2 teemos away from it. As someone who "mained" tresh( and blitz) please fix how the q of both these guys act. Make the hitbox width the same as animation width and im sure he will loose some % If that's not enough nerf his early game durability or something, i agree that he needs nerf (and blitz shifted power from his q to elsewhere lul)

WráthfulJul 3, 20172 votes

he is not really broken or something he is just well round champions that everybody likes at the support role. idk what riot can make q to be 30 sec cd? that's not a relevant post when cait and draven tear appart bot lane.

VallalanJul 3, 20172 votes

uh, lucian I'd argue is not a part of that unholy trinity of "not getting meaningful nerfs". the champion has received mostly nothing but nerfs since release. he's honestly getting worse and worse for a crit build because he keeps being able to abuse early game item builds at times. ghostblade gutted his Q range, and now the bork build raised its mana cost. that thing has a 90 mana cost at max rank. thats like using your ult. you can't spam it in any extended team fight you are gonna go OOM if you don't have reaver.

he's been hit pretty hard I'd argue. they also nerfed culling range awhile back. and his passive as well IIRC. either way, they at least pay attention to lucian.

lee's the one they almost refuse to nerf because of how popular he is. thresh was balanced for a very long time. he was squishy and couldn't go in outside of lane phase very often. with new relic shield passive and colossus that's not an issue anymore. he needs to be adjusted accordingly and he'll be fine again.

MiraweaveJul 4, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charlie Loves U,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rx5ExhcA,comment-id=001e,timestamp=2017-07-03T14:52:21.265+0000)

uh, lucian I'd argue is not a part of that unholy trinity of "not getting meaningful nerfs". the champion has received mostly nothing but nerfs since release. he's honestly getting worse and worse for a crit build because he keeps being able to abuse early game item builds at times. ghostblade gutted his Q range, and now the bork build raised its mana cost. that thing has a 90 mana cost at max rank. thats like using your ult. you can't spam it in any extended team fight you are gonna go OOM if you don't have reaver.

he's been hit pretty hard I'd argue. they also nerfed culling range awhile back. and his passive as well IIRC. either way, they at least pay attention to lucian.

lee's the one they almost refuse to nerf because of how popular he is. thresh was balanced for a very long time. he was squishy and couldn't go in outside of lane phase very often. with new relic shield passive and colossus that's not an issue anymore. he needs to be adjusted accordingly and he'll be fine again.

And yet he's been among the best ADCs in the game for the majority of his existence despite those nerfs because his kit is just way too powerful.

HaIlMonitorJul 4, 20171 votes

The answer you are looking for is caitlynn.

MiraweaveJul 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The answer you are looking for is caitlynn.

Caitlyn only really became popular again after her rework. There was a good year and a half where she was pretty bad.

VallalanJul 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

And yet he's been among the best ADCs in the game for the majority of his existence despite those nerfs because his kit is just way too powerful.

his makes him a strong duelist and strong duelists are lane bullies. lane bullies will always be meta because people want to be able to control their ability to win before 30 minutes. Lucian does that. unless he is completely gutted he will never not be meta. there's nothing wrong with that either. because he does fall off in terms of how he can contribute and his team fighting is honestly pretty poor. he may have mobility but his short range makes it hard for him to pick his moments to go in.

An Enemy SutandoJul 3, 20172 votes

What is with Riot and being super reluctant to nerf generalists, if they nerf them at all? Riven LeeSin Ahri Lucian Thresh

The Yetii RiderJul 3, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=An Enemy Sutando,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rx5ExhcA,comment-id=0020,timestamp=2017-07-03T15:43:56.618+0000)

What is with Riot and being super reluctant to nerf generalists, if they nerf them at all?

Riven is NOT a generalist. She builds AD and she goes in. That's all she can do. She can't peel or tank or heal.

HaIlMonitorJul 4, 20171 votes

Basically if it was Fiora and Caitlynn his list would be fine lol

TheFlameofOathJul 3, 20172 votes

Instead of complaining about some random champ like everyone else does, how about you actually point out the problems with this champion? Come up with a plan or a suggestion that RIOT could go off from.

ZephyrDrakeJul 3, 20172 votes

Thresh has been historically the most picked support since his release and often with one of the highest winrates as well. He is just simply a fun champion to play as so more people will play him. Since so many people find him fun to play they often stick with him for a while learning him quite well. There is very little that can be done about him in term of nerfs as well.

Increase his mana costs? that accomplishes what exactly? since he doesn't spam his hooks. Increasing the CD of his hooks? once again he doesn't spam it nor his other abilities and they already have a pretty long CD. Nerf his damage? he barely does any damage. Nerf his utility? how? and how would you do it in a way that doesn't leave him feeling like a complete waste of a champion? nerf his passive? how exactly?

SEKAIJul 4, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Thresh has been historically the most picked support since his release and often with one of the highest winrates as well. He is just simply a fun champion to play as so more people will play him. Since so many people find him fun to play they often stick with him for a while learning him quite well. There is very little that can be done about him in term of nerfs as well.

Given that everyone and their mother were suddenly a Yi/Xin/Udyr/Noc main when Devourer/FF were meta as fk (you know exactly how few and far in-between their mains actually are), it is pretty obvious "fun" is not all there is to it, and certainly no bigger than this thing called "power" and the players' consideration of it.

Players' well documented thirst for more power over others doesn't suddenly just stop applying when it comes to certain champs like Thresh or whoever that is somehow believed to be all fun and no problems.

Increase his mana costs? that accomplishes what exactly? since he doesn't spam his hooks. Increasing the CD of his hooks? once again he doesn't spam it nor his other abilities and they already have a pretty long CD. Nerf his damage? he barely does any damage. Nerf his utility? how? and how would you do it in a way that doesn't leave him feeling like a complete waste of a champion? nerf his passive? how exactly?

There is a thing called rework. It is given to champs who are deemed to be inherently unbalance-able. Poppy's R was an epitome of this, it was broken, simple as that; and so they reworked her. Thresh is on a lesser scale in a sense that no singular aspect of him is inherently broken (outside of lantern anyway), but his kit as a combination of a large bunch of incredibly good perks, the result is that his kit is just so large it's broken and some bit of it really has to go or else he will never be balanced. That's why he needs an overhaul or at least a mini-rework.

Simple as that. And no, taking a few things from him will not make him a "waste of a champ" when he already has way too many to begin with.

A good place to start is either his OP as shit lantern, his multi-staged hook (and its stupid hitbox), or his soul-mechanism that nullified the innate risk of being a ranged support ie can not access the execution aspect of Relic Shield and is not meant to have reliable last hitting but he is allowed to ignore it for no reason.

A champ doesn't always have to be blatantly broken to be considered as such, "too good" also falls under that category. And Thresh is obviously a champ who is just "too good".

Lothàrs EdgeJul 3, 20172 votes

Blanket statistics can give you a general idea of balance, not an accurate or exact one.

Shrek LuigiJul 3, 20172 votes

I don't think so many people are playing him because he's "overpowered"......

...I think they're just HOOKED on his fun playstyle.

AgeOfTheMageJul 4, 20172 votes

He's not exactly broken as much as a jack of all trades, he has everything, burst, engage, disengage, hard cc, shields, slows, damage, tankiness, what more could you need?