I feel like Viktor was 100% fine before the changes.

Guy Fox Teemo·May 4, 2016·105 votes·2,887 views

I really don't see why you needed to force these changes for the sake of change, his kit was already pretty unique in its own.

52 Comments

Doctor SoupMay 4, 201618 votes

I just tried him in game. The E and ult changes don't feel good at all imo.

Karma DeifiedMay 5, 20169 votes

Cassiopeia Mordekaiser

You're better off quitting the champ than waiting for any changes.

Already quit Malzahar here.

ZedexMay 5, 20164 votes

Why would you already quit malzahar? He's arguably way better then he used to be.

NeoBrawlerMay 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Why would you already quit malzahar? He's arguably way better then he used to be.

He has no burst. He pushes Lane way faster and has no escape. If anything he is punished more for clearning.

Karma DeifiedMay 5, 20162 votes

I didn't play Malzahar based on his power. I played him for the unique feeling that only old Cass came close to.

For sure, in the right hands, having a free cleanse on a ranged champ with a suppress will be broken as all hell.

But even if I played him for his power, it's not like Malzahar was weak before. He's been in top 5 mid win rates on KR for a while now. And he never felt weak at any point before then either.

YCitizenSnipsYMay 6, 20161 votes

"I played him for the unique feeling that only old Cass came close to. " His bull shit LCSBIGPLAY$ point and click dot, or outplaying people with that bullshit point and click ult.?

Karma DeifiedMay 6, 20161 votes

You seem to have some Malzahar-based salt there.

No. Melting people with DoT via Null Zone, optimal Q landing with Rylai/Liandry and Visions for the additional specific target damage.

His ult was not only, not fun for less knowledgable/skilled players but also for the Malzahar as it's down time and would be immediately removed by anyone with experience.

It should have been removed and replaced with an amplifier to the fun part of Malzahar.

YCitizenSnipsYMay 6, 20161 votes

Yes I do, playing him a few times will do that to most people, which is why he has always had a low play rate.Terribly boring champion that seems to only exist to ruin other peoples day with his two point and click abilities.

His kit doesn't function like Cass' in the slightest. His Q isn't similar to anything in her kit, his W is some what like hers, his E gives him better dot than Cass could dream of. And his ult is for single target. I honestly think you just brought up Cass for the fuck of it, to say I'm both a Cass and Malz player and Rito hates me.

I also like the coincidence of saying that you like Malz for his point and click abilities, only for you to just so happen to hate them and actually like the skill shots. Real shocking reply there.

Karma DeifiedMay 6, 20161 votes

Yes I do, playing him a few times will do that to most people, which is why he has always had a low play rate.

I can see why you'd find him boring. I still can't figure out how to use the new Gangplank and find myself bored when I play him.

But once you understand him better, you'll find that his point and clicks aren't really used the same way other point and click abilities are used.

Because, the first point and click is usually cast on champions for a very specific reason and you don't just spam it on people like most other point and click abilities in the game.

And the second point and click has a lot of forethought involved. Generally if you're heavily reliant on positioning, you don't want to hard cc yourself for 2.5 seconds.

His kit doesn't function like Cass' in the slightest.

Q is a skillshot, generally used while kiting or chasing.

W is an AoE melt that establishes a zone or a threat to would-be chasers.

E and R are where they start to differ.

Both E abilities are for DPS but Cass only uses her E for DPS. Malzahar can use it to extend his threat range via minions as well as to apply Rylai's slow or to deal damage to a target by casting it on their soon to die ally.

Like stated above, Malzahar's E isn't like other point and clicks. Cass has the extreme example in which she wants to literally spam it, whereas Malz wants to think about using it.

As for R, Cass obviously has the better ult. It's multi target, relatively safe to use and can be followed up on by Cass herself.

Whereas Malz may want to hold off on using it to the point of not having a good opportunity to use it at all.

However, both will end up using it as a turn around when kiting if the battle is close enough.

I also like the coincidence of saying that you like Malz for his point and click abilities, only for you to just so happen to hate them and actually like the skill shots. Real shocking reply there.

Either you had a stroke or you meant what you said word for word. Which I interpret as you saying my response is convenient.

In which case, it seems quite common that people who are really invested in a champ admire aspects of them that have nothing to do with the issues that people who don't know the champions well have with them.

In almost every case, I see displeasure over reworks, the complaints follow the tone of "X had to go, but you also ruined the good aspects while compensating."

adding unnecessary/useless mechanic into champion's kit then nerfing the champion's actual power,

This sums up a lot of the reworks perfectly. Just replace power for playstyle for Malz.

Now Malz is actually just an ult except for when he's jungle. In which case he's a summoning bot with no real thought required until he becomes just an ult.

HazyCloud7May 5, 20165 votes

If you dislike it let @ricklessabanadon (in charge of viktor changes) know about it on twitter.

IxtaliKingMay 5, 201620 votes

Lol he doesn't care

ZedexMay 5, 20166 votes

Right, thats why he's looked into things like this in the past and changed them.

IxtaliKingMay 5, 20169 votes

Really? You're teaching me something rn. Speaking for myself here, all I've seen him do is ruin my favourite champs without even giving any real context on his decisions. He just makes his changes and whoever doesn't like them can suck eggs, that's how I read his behaviour.

ZedexMay 5, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Speaking for myself here, all I've seen him do is ruin my favourite champs

Well that's like, your opinion, man.

IxtaliKingMay 5, 20163 votes

Lol yeah... that's kinda the whole point of me saying "Speaking for myself here".

ZedexMay 5, 20163 votes

It was a movie quote I used to respond to an opinion that seems misguided.
if you actually looked, you'd find context I'm sure.

AMYS GRAVEMay 5, 20164 votes

I've looked for context, found none. If you know of a source i would love to hear it.

HazyCloud7May 5, 20162 votes

Sadly you are right.

ScramrailMay 5, 201613 votes

If I remember correctly, he already responded to people who were complaining about how clunky new Viktor felt to play by saying something along the lines of "saying something is "clunky" is just another way of saying "I don't want to relearn the champion"" or something to that effect.

Which pretty much means "I don't care what you all think about the changes, theyre happening anyways so get over it and leave me alone."

Crowe StalkerMay 5, 20163 votes

To be fair, there are people in the world who use 'it feels clunky' as an excuse to never change habits or their way of doing things.

There's a difference between that and legit gutting something and calling the haters lazy for not adapting.

Restless SlumberMay 5, 20164 votes

His damage is much higher now. I 1v1d my friend as Azir vs Viktor and it was miserable. Viktor has way more damage than he used to, and the only counterplay available is dodging his death ray explosion, which is hard when he has rylais, and jumping right onto him. I would definitely recommend trying him out, because it did not make me happy having to go against that champ.

BisaknospMay 5, 20162 votes

people downvoting you for no reason kek rylais is so much better on him now personally i think he is stronger

Ulquiorra995May 5, 20162 votes

So the only counterplay available is not getting caught in a 1.5 second delayed stun and moving out of the way of 1 second delayed laser and 2 second delayed ult pulses? Man, his kit is so oppressive now! I suggest increasing the laser delay to 3 seconds and make ult pulse only once after 6 seconds to make him more fair to play against.

Restless SlumberMay 5, 20162 votes

Hmm, I think I mentioned something called rylai's being good on him. His ult is a perma slow with rylai's, and does more DoT, plus the e damage is also higher and hard to miss after grabbing rylai's.

Ulquiorra995May 5, 20162 votes

UNIQUE – ICY: Damaging slow affected units based on their type: Single Target: Slow 40% for 1.5 seconds. Area of Effect: Slow 40% for 1 second. Damage over Time, Multi-Hit and Pet attacks: Slow 20% for 1 second.

So no, it's not a permaslow. It's 50% slow duration between pulses at best (with no slow reduction). And while DoT is potentially higher, good luck ever getting someone to stay inside to take advantage of it. And laser is still narrow enough that it isn't hard to get out of the explosion even while slowed - and good luck ever landing it or more than ult initial damage on anyone with any sort of mobility in their kit.

NefasMay 6, 20161 votes

I don't think you know how rylai's works. The ult ticks have a longer gap than rylai's slow lasts

GoosetardMay 6, 20163 votes

What blows my mind is that they NERFED HIS WAVECLEAR because they found it un-fun, and un-interactive

AND THEN TURNED AROUND AND BUFFED HIS WAVECLEAR

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

HemaVengMay 5, 20162 votes

same feeling tried him and didnt like the too much cd for tickles in his ult and long time for the second shockwave to be done :(

Beardyface86May 5, 20162 votes

Also the death ray delay feels awful. it feels like it takes forever for the aftershock to hit

ModAcademy KaynMay 5, 20162 votes

Pre-rework he was an E-bot. Now Q actually does something more substantial than just damage (Bigger Sheild). I think one thing people need to remember here, and this is my opinion only, is that we've had plenty of instaburst you and you're dead mages for a long time. With the Mage Update, it was supposed to give people more reasons than just "Who kills fastest". I think Victor needs more tuning (Maybe a .8/.9 delay instead) but I prefer some of his other abilities having more weight to them instead.

Karma DeifiedMay 5, 20162 votes

Mage update failed to change that significantly. Now it's just "Who kills with the least risk". It was supposed to give a reason to pick certain mages for certain situations.

Annie no real specific spot for her to fill. Anivia lost the immediate wave clear and threat level. So no specific reason to pick her. does potentially more aoe damage. He is still just generally useful. AoE, CC, Good Damage. Malzahar now has a cc immunity for if he gets caught out of position. A reason to pick him, yes. But not a healthy reason. Watch what CC immunity does in skilled hands. And no, he won't be picked for his easily removed ult. Syndra does some aoe damage and has cc. No specific reason to pick her. Velkoz does some true damage. So might be picked if he still does higher damage than other similar mages. A.K.A "Who kills fastest" Viktor didn't play him, but from what I hear, he's just less reliable. So, I guess he'll be picked for normals? Vladimir nothing changed. He'll be picked only when he's significantly stronger. Xerath nothing changed. He'll be picked only when he's significantly stronger. Ziggs yeah, we needed help taking out towers... Zyra Actually has and had a specific reason to be picked. But the mage update is not the reason for that.

Overall, we actually lost distinction in mages. What remains in mage distinction was unaffected by the update and is only distinct from the rest of the mages, not eachother.

Lissandra Zyra

ModAcademy KaynMay 5, 20162 votes

A majority of those reasons are just number problems, save for Anivia. And you're thinking too broad a case. Each of them contribute something more than the other.

Syndra, Brand, Zyra, and Viegar: Wombo-Combo burst mages that include mass CC (Except Brand, only single Target)

Xerath, Ziggs, (and Lux): Siege Casters, people who fight from afar to poke down fools

Viktor, Anivia, and Annie: Zone Control, people who set up large areas of "I don't want to go there". I included Annie, because Jesus that bear actually hurts now and there is a reason to actually avoid it, but that may just be me. She also fits well in Wombo Combo.

Malz, Vlad, and Velkoz fit in between those particular themes so I'd have trouble fitting them in places.

My point is that you pick mages for different reasons, either to compensate in a Team Comp or to heavily enforce a type of Team Comp. Just because they aren't insanely different from each other doesn't mean they don't offer things teams desire.

SnowplosionMay 5, 20162 votes

Viktor before changes was not fine in the state he was but the state he is now is worse.

ProzzakMay 5, 20161 votes

I felt the same way about Brand and now they went and forced you to basically max W first on him instead of having options on where to go. No longer can I max e for vsing an ekko or zed because they guttered it's ratio and base damage. They also go and lower the stun duration. Disappointed in the Brand changes. They could have done without trying to force you to go W so hardcore.

Imortal DragonMay 5, 20161 votes

You know literally everyone was complaining about mages how they are op n need to be nerfed ect. Now that they have everyone wants them bk :\

Crowe StalkerMay 5, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Imortal Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rx2zbsJ6,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-05-05T02:26:39.609+0000)

everyone was complaining about mages how they are op n need to be nerfed ect.

Who said this? I can hardly believe it was everyone considering since Pre-Season the meta has heavily favored AD.

JasiwelMay 5, 20161 votes

E changes take a bit to get used to, but they're not nearly as bad as they first were. TBH, GLP helps him out a ton and the Q changes feel REALLY nice.

Ultimate needs VFX help or they need to revert it to a mostly DoT again. It's too difficult to know when the burst happens given how many particles/VFX happen in the game regularly. And it doesn't feel that great gameplay-wise, so there's that too.

Dan AbnormalMay 5, 20162 votes

i like the idea of a pulse but FFS make it every 1 seconds instead of 2, 2 is way too clunky

ScoroctMay 6, 20161 votes

or maybe 1.5s? just a bit closer and he probably will feel better.

Dan AbnormalMay 6, 20161 votes

the idea is that rylais slows for 1 seconds with AOE spells, and viktor kit right now NEEDS rylais to work, but doesnt synergise with it -_-

ScoroctMay 7, 20161 votes

his kit shouldnt have to need rlyais either way. And a 1.5 second tick rate will make it more reliable against more opponents regardless of rylais being present or not.

SnowFallMay 5, 20161 votes

I feel the same about Malzahar and how they shoved him into jungle, it's just not the same champion for me now..

Karma DeifiedMay 5, 20161 votes

Jungle Malz feels like garbage now. No, it's not weaker. It's definitely a buff.

But it feels like the game is playing for you. I feel like I'm playing urf when I play Malzahar in the jungle.

JofeyyMay 5, 20161 votes

I'd say he was 90% good. That previous E nerf a few months ago was so random and unnecessary. I feel like that's what spiraled him down the shitter.

KalarepaMay 5, 20161 votes

For me, his E actually does feel better. But his ult.... nope.

ShenjougaharaMay 5, 20161 votes

I don't actually mind the direction that they're aiming for with him, it's just the numbers that need tuning. Viktor has operated best as a burst mage, but his kit has always looked a lot more like a battle mage, what with his myriad of zone control abilites and a lot of power put into his AAs. So they simply made him better at being a battle mage. If tuning needs done then so be it, but I think the idea behind the changes was fine. He can fill a more strategic niche now rather than just be another mage that kills you pretty quickly with their full combo and has good waveclear.

Doctor DymentMay 5, 20161 votes

Well, 100% fine is a bit much. But yeah, they really didn't need to change that much in him.

Lord o teh MemesMay 5, 20161 votes

Honestly the new kit feels like complete trash needing a second and third person to set you up and protect you respectively. It would be like Yasuo having no knockup on his kit and also having no lane presence. You can't learn to play something like that, it just sucks.

USG FailsawceMay 6, 20161 votes

I feel like the Viktor changes aren't ... 'that' bad. Still completely unnecessary/pointless and he was better before, but not nearly as bad as I feared.

The changes to his E kind of balance themselves out, some pros and some cons.. better in teamfights/lockdown, aftershock technically lands about the same speed due to missile speed increase, better wave clear, more overall damage, etc. Just not as good for poking in lane.

His Q seems a LOT better, I actually like the changes here - but I fear a nerf to this in the future, which will make him overall much worse than before, and further the fact that he didn't need any changes.

His ult on the other hand... garbage, I hate this change, it's not even good for whatever it was designed for... better teamfighting? Uhh no, just no. This I wish they'd revert even if nothing else - or at least meet somewhere in the middle between where it was before and where it is now.