Riot, didn't you remove DFG because you didn't want to balance Champions around an item?

Tendrian·3/17/2015, 9:23:37 PM·101 votes·5,095 views

If that's the case, can you tell me why you go ahead and introduce Cinderhulk and, when it predictably pushes Sejuani over the edge because she benefits way too much from it, immediately bring the nerf hammer down?

Sejuani has been fine without nerfs for literally years - and now, instead of just nerfing Cinderhulk or her interaction with it, she gets nerfs across the board because of one possible build path. This shits on every Sejuani player who doesn't play her in the jungle. It shits on every Sejuani player that plays her on Dominion or ARAM. It shits on every Sejuani players that doesn't build Cinderhulk for whatever reason.

She gets balanced around one build path, in one role, on one map. What a great balancing philosophy. This is so much fun for long time Sej players.

There's always so much big talk about Champion diversity, and how the possibility to play a Champ in different roles and with builds should be preserved... but knee jerk nerfs like these show that it's all just empty phrases that lose their meaning the moment when balancing would be more challenging than giving out flat nerfs to all outliers.

109 Comments

Dreadlocks3/17/2015, 9:28:28 PM59 votes

I think you are missing the point. Lets remember pre season 5 WW got nerfed because of the smite. If an item only makes a small number of champs OP then its better to hit the 1 or 2 champs than to hit an item that is helping every one else. Zac Nautilus Volibear Maokai Elise Sion Skarner Shen Shyvana Rammus Nunu Chogath are all champs that are benefiting from the new tank jg item. Maybe not all build it every time but you get the idea. Why nerf an item that helps this many tanky junglers? easier to just hit 1 champ.

Narasimha3/17/2015, 11:38:41 PM29 votes

You're making it sound like they broke her. Did you even play Sej before? Because these are love taps. The nerf to her W is made up by the buff to her E, atleast on squishier targets. And the slow reduction on her ultimate doesn't change much. You don't ever aim to slow, you aim to stun and the slow is incidental. Plus, you still have Permafrost to follow up with. This won't break Sej. Hopefully, it'll push away people who only want to use the FoTM champ.

Erijian3/17/2015, 9:45:45 PM18 votes

The game's champions are pretty much balanced around items, regardless of what reason Riot makes about why they removed DFG that fact will always stand.

junglerboy163/18/2015, 1:06:34 AM8 votes

You all seem to not realize that the GROMP BUFF CHANGE is what made her too good, not Cinderhulk. Gromp buff allows a pure tank to reciprocate ~300 damage per auto attack received in the late game, which is disgustingly strong. That is like a thornmail when you get crit for 1k damage, and nearly 2x what it did before the patch. THAT is what made Sej too strong, not Cinderhulk.

Khristophoros3/17/2015, 9:39:42 PM8 votes

DFG made it so you could 100-0 people without using your champion skillfully.

Cinderhulk makes tanks clear jungle faster.

Do you see the difference?

Meep Man3/18/2015, 12:44:41 PM6 votes

DFG made EVERY MAGIC DAMAGE BURST CHAMP harder to balance. Theres a difference.

Åron3/18/2015, 12:55:57 AM4 votes

Am I the only one who agrees with the OP?

Don't nerf a whole group, just nerf the problem child.

GaleWinUnleashed3/18/2015, 4:07:28 PM4 votes

Sejuani is getting exactly one nerf: 2% to her W on-hit damage. The E change is a slight buff to partially compensate for it and spread damage around her kit. The R nerf can be entirely ignored, because it only matters if you missed your ult; it doesn't affect her at all if you land it.

TomA3X3/17/2015, 9:48:44 PM4 votes

It is a very minor nerf, she was banned in almost every high elo game, do you want to be able to play her? Or would you rather she stayed 'over the edge' and was banned permanently in ranked.

Asdeft3/18/2015, 9:50:34 AM3 votes

It is bs she got nerfed so soon, but these nerfs arent even that noticeable and are pretty fair tbh.

AetherKingdom3/18/2015, 1:53:13 AM3 votes

rofl, as if aram is balanced in any fucking way. ARAM is long range wins melee loses. o wait that's league in general rofl

Snowplosion3/18/2015, 1:54:32 AM3 votes

Cinderclunk and tank junglers are getting nerfed...

Silents4293/18/2015, 5:31:54 AM3 votes

Funny. No one complained when Warwick literally was gutted because of an item.

You think those minor love taps are going to be a problem?

And of course she is going to get a quick change, they said they are monitoring the item and its affects on tanks for any further tweaks. She is in a spotlight, and while people can bitch and moan all day about Lee Sin and Zed, they aren't in the same spotlight she is in.

Kögâ3/18/2015, 8:03:16 AM3 votes

Teemo says whats up. You cant hear him though, since hes been dead from patch 4.3ish.item 3151

Aboylova923/19/2015, 12:01:26 PM2 votes

It really comes down to one champion that works waaaaayyyy too well with the item. Personally this item is perfect for tank junglers, letting me play champions I haven't really played in ages. Zac, a champion I picked up when I first started playing this game, has been all but unplayable for almost as long. I've actually carried multiple 4v5's with him. Voli, Naut, and Gragas can now all play this jungle extremely well without getting dominated by a J4 or Vi. It comes down Sej already being strong before this, and this item just putting her over the edge. But why nerf the item, when it's only one champion who's an issue, and she's barely even getting nerfed.

Herbivore03/18/2015, 2:55:17 AM2 votes

we all know why they toke out DFG for its ability to burst down anyone but, then why did they take out executioner calling, sword of the divine and, Atma's Impaler? lets see what they said when 4.20 came out and these three items where going away, "We realized in the case of each of these items that 'supporting' them or allowing them to continue to exist would simply cause more harm for game health than actual benefits. Either being abusable in edge cases (hello Sword of the Divine Rengar), or being 'trap' items that are rarely (if ever) the correct strategic purchase. Some may return at a later date!" I personally loved executioner calling on draven, rengar was so good with sword of divine but, why is it "causing more harm to the games health" benefits that the items obtaken is what they do with it that makes the item seem "over power" or the champs kit that makes the item unique to there gameplay, so all in all there is no need to remove a item for its power but to judge it by the way people add it to there unique play style.

Delimon3/18/2015, 5:46:47 AM2 votes

see warwick

SmokingPuffin3/19/2015, 12:28:56 AM2 votes

Not quite. Riot didn't like what happened to champion designs when you balanced them around DFG. It's a specific complaint about balancing around that item, not items in general.

There are some other examples of this in the past:

  • Bloodthirster had a tendency to end lanes, because you'd both deal more and take less. Riot opted to nerf it into a more utility sort of item, and refocus on the all-offense IE or TF as the starting items.
  • Heart of Gold promoted passive snowballing, where a top laner who took first blood would immediately back for the gp10 and then just sit on his lead.
  • Force of Nature made it feasible for tank champions to trivialize heavy AP comps. Too much resist combined with too much regen made AP poke champions feel pointless.