Hashinshin yet again has great insight on how to fix tanks
I agree with everything he said, maybe its actually time to actually balance tanks.
I agree with everything he said, maybe its actually time to actually balance tanks.
dont understand people that enjoy watching some nim rod screaming and cursing into his mic 24/7
not really i watched a few videos of him and he is cancer imo not an enjoyable stream (there arent many anyways)
Ok? That's both a https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter and https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/genetic
You're looking at cherrypicked data and you're implying his opinion is worth less because it is from him.
What about his good videos? Have you seen any at all?
https://clips.twitch.tv/TardyInventiveJayBrainSlug https://clips.twitch.tv/EncouragingRealRuffRiPepperonis https://clips.twitch.tv/BoldWimpyIguanaTheRinger https://clips.twitch.tv/KindTriumphantWheelUWot https://clips.twitch.tv/TalentedAmusedTrollKippa https://clips.twitch.tv/CovertKnottyRingLitFam https://clips.twitch.tv/BovineSpinelessSowRickroll https://clips.twitch.tv/ConsiderateZealousBeanSoonerLater https://clips.twitch.tv/ProductiveCloudyAlmondBrainSlug https://clips.twitch.tv/TolerantGiantEmuDogFace
You aren't allowed to pull "The Fallacy Fallacy" on me. He used a fallacy and only a fallacy as his argument.
These changes are actually stupid. It's just a massive nerf to the entire class as a whole with no compensation, through both itemization and actual champs.
They'd be literally unplayable after that bullshit. Can we stop treating this guy like he's NOT baby raging? He's been baby raging for a long time now and people are just eating it up.
Edit for clarity: Tanks don't really duel well as time passes, anyway. If they don't have the damage to duel early, then they just don't get to play League at all. A lot of these % damage moves are the ONLY sources of decent damage in a tank's kit (after laning). You don't get to just flat out nerf those values without buffing them somewhere else, and % damage keeps tanks from blasting squishies into the yonder realm, hence why it's used on tanks so much (landing these moves simply deals a percentage of your health bar, not "a shit ton of damage, which happens to be all of your health bar"). Top lane fighters have an issue with being strategically relevant, but Hashinshin's a selfish player that's only pretending to know the details on that.
These changes are actually stupid. It's just a massive nerf to the entire class as a whole with no compensation, through both itemization and actual champs.
They'd be literally unplayable after that bullshit. Can we stop treating this guy like he's NOT baby raging? He's been baby raging for a long time now and people are just eating it up.
Personally i would not mind seeing tanks not in 2/3 out of the 5 positions in the map for the first time in over 3 years.
Personally i would not mind seeing tanks not in 2/3 out of the 5 positions in the map for the first time in over 3 years.
Solo queue: People play either broken shit or whatever the hell they want to play.
Pros: They don't always have a crap ton of tanks. Also, like I said, fighters need to be fit into the game's strategic meta better, rather than tanks being dumpstered.
Why would an overpowered class need compensation?
Reponse to edit: Dueling later doesn't matter because of the completely teamfight meta due to splitpush nerfs and adc/support powercreep.
Why would an overpowered class need compensation?
They aren't overpowered. Fighters are just don't offer anything strategically valuable to League in most instances. Jugs are redundant and only the tankiest divers tend to hold up well outside of solo queue cheesing.
Reponse to edit: Dueling later doesn't matter because of the completely teamfight meta due to splitpush nerfs and adc/support powercreep.
Yeah, fighters have shitty team fights in general. That doesn't mean "class wide nerf tanks". That means "Do something about fighters so they're more valuable to a team overall".
Fighters are supposed to provide damage and tankiness. Basically, marksmen aren't supposed to deal so much damage and that's the value of a bruiser, to deal more damage.
Powercreep of the game has removed this, but that's what it's supposed to be.
I feel like that was just him saying the first change that he could think of as he scrolled over random items
[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rqMKIoQ0,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-02-15T01:59:07.652+0000)
I feel like that was just him saying the first change that he could think of as he scrolled over random items
Still 10 times better than the current live design team.
Still 10 times better than the current live design team.
No, no he is not, and the fact you think he is showcased that you don’t know this guy’s full history.
He is incredibly bias to such a degree it hurts sometimes, even at times when his role was the literal best in the game, he whines about it being subpar.
No, no he is not, and the fact you think he is showcased that you don’t know this guy’s full history.
He is incredibly bias to such a degree it hurts sometimes, even at times when his role was the literal best in the game, he whines about it being subpar.
Not saying i agree with EVERYTHING he says, but right here he is 100% correct.
Not saying i agree with EVERYTHING he says, but right here he is 100% correct.
No, gutting tank armour itemization and then heavily nerfing a bunch of individual tanks isn't 100% correct, he's just being his typical washed-up has-been self.
That's not an argument. An argument means you actually prove him wrong. You didn't prove him wrong. You proved he has a bias. Bias is the reason why we have the opinions, and therefore the arguments we make. You didn't say if he was wrong.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque (similar idea) https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem (Attacking person rather than substance of argument) https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/genetic (Saying because Hashinshin is saying it means it is wrong, despite a very popular opinion among high elo top laners)
Do we really need to bring this back just so people don't have unintelligible arguments?
Also, since I'll actually fight your argument, when was top lane the best role in the past 4 years? At what time?
That's not an argument. An argument means you actually prove him wrong. You didn't prove him wrong. You proved he has a bias. Bias is the reason why we have the opinions, and therefore the arguments we make. You didn't say if he was wrong.
When did I say he was wrong in this about this?
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem (Attacking person rather than substance of argument)
Just being honest, hashinshin in all his time has always been focused about his lane and only his lane, he has never made comments about when other lanes are weak, or other champions unless they are top laners. He doesn't have a clear view of this game besides what happens top.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/genetic (Saying because Hashinshin is saying it means it is wrong, despite a very popular opinion among high elo top laners)
I ask again, when on this topic, did I say he was wrong?
Do we really need to bring this back just so people don't have unintelligible arguments?
Also, since I'll actually fight your argument, when was top lane the best role in the past 4 years? At what time?
In the last four seasons, it hasn't been, but the thing about Hashinshin is he has been whining about top lane being bad, even way back in season 2 when it was the best lane, with the strongest archetype of characters.
Ok, so why point out bias if the bias is irrelevant to his choices being right or wrong?
Just being honest, hashinshin in all his time has always been focused about his lane and only his lane, he has never made comments about when other lanes are weak, or other champions unless they are top laners. He doesn't have a clear view of this game besides what happens top.
He's said that assassins are terrible because mages stonewall lane with lost chapter, support powercreeped, and are balanced around Duskblade, which Kha'zix abuses and is therefore overpowered due to chain proccing it. He's also said attack speed junglers are shit. He said ADCs don't have fun much because if their support sucks they just get oneshot/full combo'd by the mage.
In the last four seasons, it hasn't been, but the thing about Hashinshin is he has been whining about top lane being bad, even way back in season 2 when it was the best lane, with the strongest archetype of characters.
Prove it since you're not really adding context to the situation. I dislike making uninformed opinions.
Guy fucking knows an unfathomable amount of history, balances his own mod for another game called EU4 (and yes very complex), has played the game for 8 years now, has played every role for 5-6 of them because role queuing didn't exist, multiseason challenger, gets trolled by people so he's forced to no longer play on his main, and dislikes Reddit talking about proplayers like they're experts. You don't have to agree with everything he says, because I certainly don't, but to dismiss him away worse than the 30 some people on a list I have of common board users with poor opinions. At least I fight them with an argument, but you're just dismissing with no chance for any other view. Guy has achieved so much and holds a lot of experience. His opinions and feedback are valuable, but no one is calling him absolute.
Ok, so why point out bias if the bias is irrelevant to his choices being right or wrong?
Because he isn't impartial, I'm making a statement on why he would be wrong for the balance team even if he is right about this one.
He's said that assassins are terrible because mages stonewall lane with lost chapter, support powercreeped, and are balanced around Duskblade, which Kha'zix abuses and is therefore overpowered due to chain proccing it. He's also said attack speed junglers are shit. He said ADCs don't have fun much because if their support sucks they just get oneshot/full combo'd by the mage.
He made no qualms about traditional supports being fazed out of the support role because they were farm fodder back in season 3 with DFG at its height. No mention how shit ADCs were back in Season 7, how they were only still being picked to push lane during the tank meta. No mention of the complaints of certain juggernauts in season 5 when they were at their peak of power.
Guy fucking knows an unfathomable amount of history, balances his own mod for another game called EU4 (and yes very complex), has played the game for 8 years now, has played every role for 5-6 of them because role queuing didn't exist, multiseason challenger, gets trolled by people so he's forced to no longer play on his main, and dislikes Reddit talking about proplayers like they're experts.
Congrats, what does this have to do with anything?
You don't have to agree with everything he says, because I certainly don't, but to dismiss him away worse than the 30 some people on a list I have of common board users with poor opinions.
I don't trust anyone on these boards when it comes to balance. These boards have showcased time and time and TIME again that they don't want balance, they don't want everyone equal, they don't want what is best for the game. These forums are and have always been purely blind circlejerk. Whatever is currently being played the most whether it is strongest or not, is whined about being nerfed into the ground day in and day out. Most of the suggestions here are all about nerfing to non viablity rather then actual balance and Hashinshin's statements have been much the same with the suggestions he gives. He has gotten better as of late sure, but this doesn't change the multiple years where his top lane bias shined and I dismiss because it has been the same song and dance of complaining for 9 years straight now.
At least I fight them with an argument, but you're just dismissing with no chance for any other view.
What argument, you don't even read my post and just assumed that I don't agree with him outright when I stated in my first post that isn't the truth. I do agree with him on certain things, I just don't think he would be a good fit for the balance team. He isn't impartial and it shows.
Because he isn't impartial, I'm making a statement on why he would be wrong for the balance team even if he is right about this one.
How can you be certain he isn't impartial? What if he appears to be biased, but is actually correct because it is reality?
He made no qualms about traditional supports being fazed out of the support role because they were farm fodder back in season 3 with DFG at its height. No mention how shit ADCs were back in Season 7, how they were only still being picked to push lane during the tank meta. No mention of the complaints of certain juggernauts in season 5 when they were at their peak of power.
Pretty sure he complained about tanks in season 7 because tanks were overpowered, not adcs being bad. Juggernauts in season 5 were never good except Skarner and Darius, which got fair nerfs, but then were nerfed again.
Congrats, what does this have to do with anything?
It proves he can balance a game impartially, proves he has more experience than the balance team, proves you wrong on him only knowing things about top lane, proves he understands the game and community.
I don't trust anyone on these boards when it comes to balance. These boards have showcased time and time and TIME again that they don't want balance, they don't want everyone equal, they don't want what is best for the game.
Really? I can name a lot of people on these boards who want what is best for the game. Rubick, Ralanr, Eedat, Tidal Tyrant, FalconPawwwwnch, chipndip1, Rainfall, Diamond2Kappa, GayFluffyUnicorn, The Wolf King, Face The Win, Ryuumoku No Koke, and of course myself.
Most of the suggestions here are all about nerfing to non viablity rather then actual balance and Hashinshin's statements have been much the same with the suggestions he gives. He has gotten better as of late sure, but this doesn't change the multiple years where his top lane bias shined and I dismiss because it has been the same song and dance of complaining for 9 years straight now.
If he's so wrong, then please attack the argument and prove him wrong. You're a fucking coward if you just call someone biased and have absolutely nothing to prove him wrong. Everyone is a fucking coward.
What argument, you don't even read my post and just assumed that I don't agree with him outright when I stated in my first post that isn't the truth. I do agree with him on certain things, I just don't think he would be a good fit for the balance team. He isn't impartial and it shows.
You have yet to prove why he isn't impartial. I've shown why he isn't with his Ultra Hashinshin EU4 mod, but you have absolutely god damn nothing.
How can you be certain he isn't impartial? What if he appears to be biased, but is actually correct because it is reality?
How am I supposed to know this when he hasn’t showcased this?
Pretty sure he complained about tanks in season 7 because tanks were overpowered, not adcs being bad. Juggernauts in season 5 were never good except Skarner and Darius, which got fair nerfs, but then were nerfed again.
Morse Kaiser was also really good until his nerfs.
It proves he can balance a game impartially, proves he has more experience than the balance team, proves you wrong on him only knowing things about top lane, proves he understands the game and community.
No it doesn’t, it doesn’t prove anything, just because he follows the current circlejerk of what he doesn’t enjoy doesn’t prove that he is right or would do a better job
If he's so wrong, then please attack the argument and prove him wrong. You're a fucking coward if you just call someone biased and have absolutely nothing to prove him wrong. Everyone is a fucking coward.
I ask again, when in any of my post did I say he was wrong about this subject? Please source the exact quote here where I said he was wrong about this particular subject on tank’s power, you keep talking about proof but have failed to show me the proof that I said he was wrong about this.
You have yet to prove why he isn't impartial. I've shown why he isn't with his Ultra Hashinshin EU4 mod, but you have absolutely god damn nothing.
What does balancing a whole other game have to do with the balance of LoL, I have created a balanced dnd character that got recognized and enjoyed by one of the creators of 5th edition, does that mean I’m also good and would know what people want in LoL’s balance?
Bias destories a argument, because bias is not fact. If I have a bias to think that all mexicans are murders and rapes, does not make it fact. Just because we form opinions from some bias does not mean that they make strong arguments. Hashin has bias toward juggers in his lane, he suggests nerfing bumble vest, while playing aatrox. Really they makes it a good argument?
No, bias gives the reason why an argument exists. I swear I've already said this.
If his argument was actually incorrect you could come back to reality and use facts to disprove him.
Are you really saying this man? Argument are not just bias, if that were the case the world would be even worse of then it is. Arguments are premises and a conclusion drawn from those premises. From that you form an argument. For an argument to be invalid or incorrect it has to the case in which it cannot be true for premises to be truth while the conclusion is false. https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Introduction_to_Philosophical_Logic/Arguments this literally tells you what an argument is, I dont really understand where you are getting you info from but it is so wrong. As a philosophy major it is really sad seeing you say this.
"(Saying because Hashinshin is saying it means it is wrong, despite a very popular opinion among high elo top laners)" That last bit "despite a very popular opinion among high elo top laners" You know that that itself is a logical fallacy right? Appealing to authority I found that on the same page you brought your other fallacies from.
What? I'm saying that you are wrong for calling him invalid because he may be biased.
I'm not using appeal to authority. Authority are people elected or born into power. High ranked people is literal proof of credibility just like a politician's record on voting and policies.
You do understand what you are saying right? Did you read what I posted did you click the site? "I'm saying that you are wrong for calling him invalid because he may be biased" This is what you just type. You need to understand this personal opinion is the worse type of argumentation, because it is not backed by anything but your own personal opinion. What I dont understand is how you can bring logical fallacy and not see the error in your own logic?
You mean to tell me that If I think that all mexicans are murders and rapist because I think so, is a valid argument and you cannot say it is invalid just because I am bias? Ok but then what is the bases of that idea? What proves that? You mean to tell me that my bias makes it valid?
Also Authority doesnt have to be people elected or born into power. Teachers are authority, were they elected or born into power? In the sense of gaming do we not consider high elo people more credible then lower elo people, therefore see them as an authority figure in terms of balance? I don't have to be using the term in some political sense this fallacy doesnt only apply to kings and politicians.
What? I said his argument wasn't valid due to being built on a fallacy and only a fallacy.
What? I'm saying that exact argument isn't valid because it is built on bias only (and probably cherrypicked data, another fallacy).
Teachers are appointed. They do not have to overcome people with an absolute proof of being better. You're basically telling me that an Olympic gold medal swimmer isn't valid due to his skill which is proven by his gold medal that he earned. Same shit for league. Why is the proof of someone being of a higher skill level, aka high elo, not a valid argument?
Ok as long as we agree that an argument built on bias is not valid we are fine, because if you read your own comment "What? I'm saying that you are wrong for calling him invalid because he may be biased" Does not really prove your own point.
Being hired for having the best credentials isnt proof of being the most qualified for the job? Also a student using a teacher for the bases of an argument is a form of using appeal for authority. Also if you understand that higher elo top laners would they not have bias toward their own lane being too weak. That also means that if higher elo adc's right now said that their lane was weak they would technically be right because they have a higher skill ceiling right? If higher elo assassin mains started saying db is to weak, oh I guess we have to buff it. Dont you see that if a high elo person of that specific lane says that their specific lane is weak how can you expect ppl to believe it especially when they take about their own specific lanes. I honestly agree with hash I wish i could play darius, but no one is going to believe him when he talks about nerfing brumble vest while playing aatrox.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAyQlbqeaew
I might get banned for this, but fk it since we're talking Haishinshin, I might as well.
[{quoted}](name=Bael the Riser,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rqMKIoQ0,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-02-15T06:43:55.238+0000)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAyQlbqeaew
I might get banned for this, but fk it since we're talking Haishinshin, I might as well.
While watching this and reflecting back on when I played Malzahar before the rest of the community realized how strong he was as an AP Tank HP Buster for ADCs to get easier time to kill, I realized something. Its not that Malzahar sucked liked the people in my games said cause Korea certain said otherwise as they legit pub stomp NA teams in Worlds or that I couldn't win with him cause I am getting positive KDAs, I know objective controls, etc, The issue with any champ you pick nowadays is that you legit cannot carry a bunch of assholes.
I also personally don’t think that tanks should do damage either, but all throughout season 2 up to season 4, people whines about tanks being useless because after they blew their cc they did nothing, personally think that is how it should be, but people whined not looking at the flip side of things.
I also personally don’t think that tanks should do damage either, but all throughout season 2 up to season 4, people whines about tanks being useless because after they blew their cc they did nothing, personally think that is how it should be, but people whined not looking at the flip side of things.
Ppl that complained tanks couldnt do damage to 1v5 teams were beyond biased and stupid.
Season 2 naut was the epitome of how a tank should function, very tanky, tons of cc and disruption and some small windows where he can do damage WITH COUNTERPLAY (breaking his shield).
Ppl that complained tanks couldnt do damage to 1v5 teams were beyond biased and stupid.
Season 2 naut was the epitome of how a tank should function, very tanky, tons of cc and disruption and some small windows where he can do damage WITH COUNTERPLAY (breaking his shield).
Didn’t change the fact people begged for this for about 3 seasons straight and anyone who didn’t agree was called an idiot and downvoted.
Lol, that's how it is now when you try to tell mage players they don't need multiple AP Armor items.
[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rqMKIoQ0,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-15T02:08:21.745+0000)
Lol, that's how it is now when you try to tell mage players they don't need multiple AP Armor items.
Basically
Why do people care about a guy who has literally cried the entire time he has been in the game? You know, I started playing this game near the end of S1, at the beginning of Season 2. The only thing I have ever heard associated with this guy is crying about everything and how bad the game is. Not only that, he was doing the Tiamat drop hack when that was a bug, which cost him his writing job at that website(Reign of Gaming) years ago. I guess people forget about that or dont know about it because they haven't been around the game that long. And people put their faith in this guy, who has shown over the years, even when he thought the game was good, he only cares about winning and could care less about anything else to do with the game. He has an incredibly skewed viewpoint made solely to further his own style and enjoyment of the game. He is literally the embodiment of this sub forum.
Its not even a tank meta. I mean, I dont get it. The top lane right now is nothing but Gnar/Camille/Vlad/Jayce/Gangplank/etc. Where is this tank meta that needs nerfed? All he does is cry. He has cried for YEARS. Just type in his name and you can see posts of him being a crybaby from 2012. He literally ONLY cares about how he plays the game and what affects him. He has always been this way, and it skews his judgement.
So now hes crying about tanks? Just look at your typical LCS game. Where are these tanks? Every game is GP/Camille/Gnar/Vlad/Kled/Jayce/etc. You might see Ornn. So where the hell is this tank meta that needs nerfed?
But if we're talking tanks, they outclass bruisers. The top laners you are talking about, while even better, aren't to the subject.
Just type in his name and you can see posts of him being a crybaby from 2012. He literally ONLY cares about how he plays the game and what affects him. He has always been this way, and it skews his judgement.
Again, that doesn't invalidate his argument. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/genetic
So now hes crying about tanks? Just look at your typical LCS game. Where are these tanks? Every game is GP/Camille/Gnar/Vlad/Kled/Jayce/etc. You might see Ornn. So where the hell is this tank meta that needs nerfed?
"Now"? It's been like 2 years man. https://clips.twitch.tv/BlazingEvilElephantRedCoat
Where? Have you even looked at LCS? Have you even looked at winrates in solo Q? Where are all these OP tanks at?
In the top 10, there are 2 champs that are tanks; Sion/Malphite. In the top 20, 3 total tanks. top 30, 5 total tanks, etc. In the top 40 winrate champs in top lane, there are like 7 tanks. Where the hell are all these OP tanks at?
Solo queue is irrelevant because no one wants to play tanks. Winrate is skewed because it is broken champion vs broken champion. LCS you do see Maokai and Ornn top and Sej jungle.
Hahahahha do you even watch pro games? Maokai has been picked like twice. GP/Camille/Vlad/Gnar is every single game.
You dont even watch LCS.
over 250 maokai picks/bans over the past year
Not even close to your number combined over the past year
:thinking:
Year? So you are stretching as hard as you can to justify this narrative when we are talking RIGHT NOW, in the LCS and pro play, it is not a tank meta. But you are literally gonna stretch back patches and entire splits to say tank meta? What a joke. I can't even tell if you are being serious now.
Thinking is right. You are thinking hard as you can to justify this narrative when we can tune in to LCS this week and see nothing but carry tops, like we have for 4 weeks now. But that doesnt fit your narrative so you are gonna go "year." Lol.
How much you wanna bet we will see nothing but GP/Camille/Gnar/Vlad this week? But you right tank meta. What a joke. Go ahead and quote some last year spring split or last summer split to justify your narrative. I'll wait.
Then you're cherrypicking data on the recent. Maokai is broken and you're stating things that are more broken to defend him. That makes little sense to me.