There is no way this Trundle buff makes it to live

Ahristocats·Jun 14, 2017·45 votes·4,209 views

20-40 ad debuff

he removes almost half of a person's base ad at lvl 1 it has a low cd low mana cost

laning against trundle as an ad champ will be straight up impossible

change it to 10/17/24/32/40

88 Comments

Big LincolnJun 14, 201730 votes

i would have been happier with him just getting his tower bite back 2bh

this seems like it's gonna make fighting him early really obnoxious for ad top laners

EndlessSorcererJun 14, 20175 votes

Honestly, I'd settle for Chomp being consumed by the tower even if it doesn't deal additional damage since it would provide more frequent Sheen procs and bonus AD against towers.

MelledoneusJun 14, 201713 votes

While I personally hate Trundle, isn't him being annoying for AD top laners kind of the point?

hhaavviikkJun 14, 20179 votes

{quoted}

While I personally hate Trundle, isn't him being annoying for AD top laners kind of the point?

not if the AD top laner is an ADC remembers how rammus and malphite were nerfed for being OP against 4/5 ADC teams

SkorchJun 14, 20171 votes

Hold on i can... kinda... explain this. I think its still evident Rammus and Malphite are still strong against 4/5 ADC comps. However about 99/100 times that a 5 ADC comp is picked its intentional, and is usually an off-meta/troll pick, same with full mage comps/etc. And while they are still strong, i can see why it would be a little depressing to have an off meta team pick completely destroyed because 1 champion was picked.

It Hertz When IPJun 14, 20172 votes

There's a difference between off-meta and dumb. May as well pick an all-melee team, then get depressed because the enemy is tearing you apart from a distance, or pick a full sustain/heal comp then get upset the enemy bought Executioners.

It would be like play Rocks-Paper-Scissors with someone, always 100% picking Rock, then getting annoyed that you're always losing.

kile147Jun 14, 20171 votes

Things are off-meta for a reason. Off meta can work if you understand why it doesn't normally get played and make sure to cover the weaknesses. If you pick a full AD team ban Rammus and Malphite and make sure you have plenty of Armor Pen. If you don't then you deserve the loss because you failed to utilize your comp correctly.

SkorchJun 15, 20171 votes

That is true, but my issue is 1 person single picking rammus shouldnt completely destroy that comp. He is still REALLY strong against AD, its not like hes gutted for being good against off-meta.

Challenger EonJun 14, 20172 votes

Those changes (getting the turret bite back and the healing change) really wouldn't change much. An extra 5 percent healing on his W and Q working on turrets won't change the issue that he currently has, which is that he loses lane to basically everyone.

https://www.champion.gg/champion/Trundle/Top?league=

He literally has only one single person he tends to win games against and that's Jayce. He needs to get his power to consistently win lane back or the W change and the Q working on turrets won't do much since he'll be too behind anyways to be able to split push

I'm not even a trundle player (I actually main champs that fuck him) but I still feel like with all other champs he should be pushed back to being strong again, even if he gets nerfed a month later in some way.

kile147Jun 14, 20171 votes

How the hell does Trundle lose to Darius? Darius can bully him a little 1-5 but he starts losing lvl 6 unless Trundle is way behind. I can't refute the data, I just don't understand it.

Challenger EonJun 14, 20172 votes

I don't play Darius or much of Trundle but at a 46 percent win rate against Darius I'd say he loses pretty damn hard. I assume they both go evenish in lane and Darius does more mid-late game for team fights.

PaquayJun 14, 20172 votes

Top laner? If this goes through time for a new permaban support champ. :P

SohleksJun 14, 201713 votes

Auto always does at least minimum [blue value] of the attacker's AD (before resists)

Ex. Level 1 Orianna will always do 40 premitigated physical damage (Lvl 1 Maokai is around 60)

It might still gut AD ratio abilities though

But yeah still quite an oppressive buff if you're an AD builder

Guess you should rune and build full attack speed versus trundle kappa

SohleksJun 14, 20176 votes

If you didn't believe me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVH3xQEiFkE

RenascentJun 14, 20178 votes

Guess that explains why my genius idea to max W first on Trynd didn't work that one time xP

DeathBurstJun 14, 20174 votes

So you always deal at least your base AD at level 1.

But if you're higher level, say level 5, what's the minimum you will deal? Your base base AD at level 1, or your base AD including natural growth at level 5?

TheorcheroJun 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So you always deal at least your base AD at level 1.

But if you're higher level, say level 5, what's the minimum you will deal? Your base base AD at level 1, or your base AD including natural growth at level 5?

Your auto attacks always deal base ad premitigation. That base ad is raised with levels, by a rate that is determined by ad growth. Ori is kind of a special case as she has really low base ad to compensate for her passive which adds magic damage.

The problem with this is that Trundle steals the ad, so it makes him absolutely oppressive vs melee ad champions.

EndlessSorcererJun 14, 20176 votes

This change wouldn't make Trundle deal any more damage than he currently does. His attack damage already increases by 20/25/30/35/40 after using Chomp.

This would just increase the AD his target loses (from 50% to 100% of the bonus AD Trundle receives).

kile147Jun 14, 20172 votes

It would make him take significantly less damage though. He already has decent sustain so combine that with taking less damage in trades and you'll never push him out.

PB4UAMEJun 14, 20171 votes

I have never understood why this is the case though. Makes Tyrnd's W feel like shit in lane.

RocketRelmJun 14, 20173 votes

Imagining the alternative world, where Tryn gets a -50 Ad 4 Sec duration debuff to use on enemies at lvl 5, I'm glad that's not the case.

PB4UAMEJun 19, 20171 votes

You're making it in to a false dichotomy. There is a world of grey between "this does absolutely fucking nothing," and "This works exactly how its says it does." I, personally, think it should be a soft cap, like with movement speed, and reduce by less, say 50% effectivity, if it would be applied to base AD.

Say someone has 70 AD, all of which is base, they would now have 45 AD.

If they had 100 AD (still 70 base) well, now they would have 60. (the first 30 applies normally, the latter 20 is applies at 50% effectivity so it provides another 10 AD reduction.

rG ThundragJun 14, 20176 votes

I've done a lot of testing around AD reductions with trynd lets say you had 60 base ad and a rank 2 tryndamere W reduces it to 25.

While visually your AD is 25 on the stat bar you will autos will still count for 60 AD as your attacks cannot do less than your base AD.

He will still be busted against people who build lots of early AD though either way.

EedatJun 14, 20176 votes

For reference, here are some popular top laners' base AD at level 1:

Fiora 60.0

Darius 56.0

Kled 55.0

Renekton 58.3

Riven 56.0

Gangplank 56.0

Yasuo 55.4

Shen 60.0

Galio 59.0

and dont forget

Trundle 60.0

Fun facts: Maokai has the highest level 1 base AD at 63.5. Orianna is the lowest at 40.4

IPromiseTomorrowJun 14, 20172 votes

One trundle ability. Erases 1/3 to 1/2 of ad stats. Or just oris whole ad stats lol

Glory ln DeathJun 14, 20175 votes

As has been mentioned in several other comments, Trundle's Q cannot reduce a champions' auto attack damage below their base AD. So, it really doesn't matter that much, especially for Orianna and any other AP champions who have no AD scaling.

It can hurt ability-based AD champions, but those are the only champs really affected by this.

SquashCannonJun 14, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rmo0GQHR,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2017-06-14T16:03:05.429+0000)

As has been mentioned in several other comments, Trundle's Q cannot reduce a champions' auto attack damage below their base AD. So, it really doesn't matter that much, especially for Orianna and any other AP champions who have no AD scaling.

It can hurt ability-based AD champions, but those are the only champs really affected by this.

Itll kill the darius matchup completely I guess

Glory ln DeathJun 14, 20171 votes

Well, it's about time Darius got a lane bully of his own!

Big LincolnJun 14, 20171 votes

Pantheon Jayce Quinn Aatrox Lucian Kennen

it's not funny anymore

SquashCannonJun 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rmo0GQHR,comment-id=000d00000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-06-14T23:50:20.640+0000)

it's not funny anymore

I would also like to add Riven who you left out and is probably a better counter than all those bitches combined if shes not a potato

SquashCannonJun 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rmo0GQHR,comment-id=000d0000000000010000,timestamp=2017-06-14T23:10:05.341+0000)

Well, it's about time Darius got a lane bully of his own!

Dont be stupid darius has a ton of lane counters, some of them even melee

Glory ln DeathJun 15, 20171 votes

A lane "counter" is different than a lane "bully". A lane counter has the advantage during laning phase. A lane bully completely shuts the opponent down and forces them to stand behind their tower the entire laning phase, and can still kill them there. A competent Darius doesn't currently have any lane bullies, and doesn't have very many real lane counters, either.

Considering how many champions Darius can easily bully out of lane, it only makes sense that he ought to have one or two who can bully him, as well.

SquashCannonJun 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rmo0GQHR,comment-id=000d000000000001000000010000,timestamp=2017-06-15T14:28:30.104+0000)

A lane "counter" is different than a lane "bully". A lane counter has the advantage during laning phase. A lane bully completely shuts the opponent down and forces them to stand behind their tower the entire laning phase, and can still kill them there. A competent Darius doesn't currently have any lane bullies, and doesn't have very many real lane counters, either.

Considering how many champions Darius can easily bully out of lane, it only makes sense that he ought to have one or two who can bully him, as well.

Ok, even by that definition, riven lane bullies darius starting at level 3.

Go make this case of yours on dariusmains subreddit if you feel otherwise, as well as dariusmains discord if you truly care.

Have a good day mango

Glory ln DeathJun 15, 20171 votes

Ok, cool. Now Darius can have two lane bullies. I don't understand why that's a problem, since he is a lane bully to about half of the other top laners.

Not really sure why you're so upset by this.

SquashCannonJun 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glory ln Death,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rmo0GQHR,comment-id=000d00000000000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-15T15:04:14.003+0000)

Ok, cool. Now Darius can have two lane bullies. I don't understand why that's a problem, since he is a lane bully to about half of the other top laners.

Not really sure why you're so upset by this.

By your definition of lane bully, darius can't actually BULLY many champions either.

You made idiotic statements, they must be corrected.

It's people like you that get darius nerfed even when he's long been competitively dead along with 99% of the juggernaut class.

Glory ln DeathJun 15, 20171 votes

Darius bullies almost every immobile top laner. He may not be played in pro games, but he is very strong in most tiers of Solo Q. He's nowhere near Renekton's level back in the days where he set the bar for top lane, but he is still very strong.

And nowhere in my comments did I say Darius needs nerfs or even that I want him nerfed. The only thing I said is that it's OK for him to have some bad match ups. Darius is still going to be a lane bully, have an advantage, or be a skill match-up in most of his games.

Again, you're freaking out and getting upset for no reason. No one is asking for Darius to get gutted or changed at all here.

ChønklordJun 14, 20175 votes

YASSSSSSSSSSSS, SLAY, my TROLL KING.

Happiest fucking day of league for me to hear they're buffing trundle. Time to Troll.

Cosmic WarperJun 14, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bôôsted Bonobo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rmo0GQHR,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-06-14T00:31:16.547+0000)

YASSSSSSSSSSSS, SLAY, my TROLL KING.

Happiest fucking day of league for me to hear they're buffing trundle. Time to Troll.

you wont play him if he's permabanned

Noam BraumskyJun 14, 20172 votes

Praise the 10 ban system!

DunkinNoobsJun 14, 20173 votes

His dueling doesn't need buffs. He already zones every melee champ off the wave at lvl 1, so why they would choose to buff that part of him is baffling.

Automated RivenJun 14, 20172 votes

Whatt??? who does he zone off the wave at level 1 who cant just beat him?

DunkinNoobsJun 14, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rmo0GQHR,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-06-14T19:44:04.139+0000)

Whatt??? who does he zone off the wave at level 1 who cant just beat him?

Every single melee top laner.

Automated RivenJun 15, 20171 votes

Riven stomps him level 1. I guess I don't play other melee champion. But I don't feel like trundle wins an AA trade with a top laner with six minions. Also poppy does fine against him due to him being unable to get meaningful damage against her through the slow and takes a metric ton of minions harass.

Elkington VIJun 14, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rmo0GQHR,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-06-14T19:44:04.139+0000)

Whatt??? who does he zone off the wave at level 1 who cant just beat him?

No one with a brain. Certainly not Darius or Fiora.

Big LincolnJun 14, 20171 votes

trundle fucks darius up pretty well at level 1 actually

kile147Jun 14, 20172 votes

Trundle fucks up Darius pretty well the entire game. I don't think I've beat a Trundle as Darius without large amounts of jungler intervention early because if they are anywhere close to even by level 6 Darius has to farm under tower.

SquashCannonJun 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Trundle fucks up Darius pretty well the entire game. I don't think I've beat a Trundle as Darius without large amounts of jungler intervention early because if they are anywhere close to even by level 6 Darius has to farm under tower.

If we are talking duels you eventually outscale trundle since he doesnt have a passive late game in duels.

SquashCannonJun 14, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rmo0GQHR,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-06-14T19:44:04.139+0000)

Whatt??? who does he zone off the wave at level 1 who cant just beat him?

Darius cant auto and has to q for the most part level one especially after might nerfs = zoned

Nasus is self explanatory = zoned

Illaoi has a shit tier level one = zoned

Def a few others trundle can lvl one zone

GULAG 4 UJun 15, 20172 votes

Doesn't trundle already fuck melees either way?