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How to bring Dodge in a Competitive Game

Ahristocats··23 votes·3,543 views

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/3/35/Ninja_Tabi_item.png/revision/latest?cb=20130319091031

Please read the WHOLE thread or go to the tl:dr

years ago riot decided to remove dodge as a stat for many reasons like the fact that it was RNG, since 2011 riot tried to make the game more competitive which led them to remove it since relying on luck was a barrier in a competitive game. Phantom dancer got its dodge removed and then replaced by a % of damage reduction, while ninja tabi got 10% damage reduction against basic attacks, but the problem is that it gives too much hidden power,

you can find all the reasons in this thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1516825&page=1#post17589863

I want to suggest to riot to bring it back in a way that would solve the problem of old evasion similar to how shen and jax have 100% dodge for few seconds. Instead of giving a flat chance of dodging an attack, **evasion now gives 100% dodge for one attack each 10 seconds **
-evasion can be stacked multiplicatively reducing the cooldown by X %, this removes RNG and also encourages to a lot of decisions because support players or mages can decide to attack someone with evasion to disable the passive, this would reward them because the ADC will have an increased damage.

ninja tabi (old): 25 armor unique: +10% dodge chance

item 3047 : 25 armor unique passive: evasion(i.e definition above) unique passive: reduces the cooldown of evasion by 10%

item 3046 : 45% attack speed 30% critical chance 5% ms unique passive: near an enemy champion gives 7% ms unique passive: the last hit champions hit deals 12% reduced damage

new: item 3046 same stats unique passive 7% ms near an enemy champion unique passive: evasion (i.e definition above) unique passive: reduce the cooldown of evasion by 20%

note: can be stacked with other sources of evasion

cooldown of evasion with ninja tabi: 9 seconds with phantom dancer: 8 seconds with phantom dancer+ninja tabi: 7.2 seconds

item 3091 : new active: disable evasion on the targeted champions for 3.5 seconds, the target is then immuned to with'end for the next 3.5 seconds. 35 seconds cooldown note: -can be purged by item 3140

  • can be countered by spellshields like Sivir 's E Now move out to champions!

Shen W doesn't need any changes and is fine

Jax : counterstrike (old): Passive: Increases Jax's dodge chance by 10 / 12 / 14 / 16 / 18%. Active: Jax stuns surrounding enemies for 1 second and deals 80 / 125/ 150 / 175 / 200 (+60% of ability power) magic damage to them. Usable only within 7 seconds of dodging an attack.

Cooldown 4.5seconds

new: passive: Jax is able to dodge a basic attack every 9/8.8/8.6/8.4/8.2 seconds (can be reduced by building evasion) active: jax stuns surrounding enemies for 1 second and deals Physical Damage: 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 / 150(+0.5 bonus Attack Damage) usable only within 3 seconds of dodging an attack

cooldown: 16/14/12/10/8 seconds

optional: :

Sivir
fleet of foot (innate) (old): while sivir is moving, she gains 30% dodge

new: while sivir is moving, she is able to dodge a basic attack every 7 seconds (can be reduced by building evasion) moving reduces the cooldown of this ability by 0.5 seconds for each 100 units traveled

optional: :

Udyr Monkey's Agility (innate) (old): Udyr's attack speed is increased by 10% and his dodge chance is increased by 3% each time he switches stances. This effect can stack up to 3 times.

new: Udyr is able to dodge a basic attack every 10 seconds (can be reduced by building evasion), the cooldown is reduced by 3 % each time he switches stances (max 3 times), when udyr dodges an attack, his movement speed is increased by 5 for each monkey's agility stacks. Additionally Udyr's attack speed is increased by 10% for each stacks

-Dodge only starts looking compelling when it can be stacked. But when stacked too high, it completely (and permanently) shuts down a subset of characters. This then causes us to have to make additional things (such as Sword of the Divine) to counter this counter, which ends up using a lot of design space simply to make the statistic fun and non-abusive. Typically, we try to avoid super hard counters like this.

not only armor and magic resistance are similar since they counters damage but can be countered by armor/mr penetration, but this version of dodge can not entirly shut down a subset of character because their allies can help them either by building item 3091 or by attacking the target to disable evasion, even in 1v1 the cooldown of evasion is still long

; -While both Critical Strike and Dodge use a similar randomization formula, Critical Strike is still countered in much the same way as Attack Damage and Attack Speed: buy Armor. Conversely, Dodge can’t be overcome by getting more Attack Damage or Armor Penetration like other defenses can. This means that Critical Strike is just a damage multiplier, whereas dodge is an entirely new defense type that doesn’t have a series of sensible counters to it.

this version of dodge can be countered by attack speed, since attacking faster will disable the passive and allows you to quickly attack the target after disabling the passive

; -Historically, there have only been two actual gameplay decisions that have to do with Dodge – Jax’s Counterstrike and the former Nimbleness mastery. While both of these do have some cool nuances to them, they’re not the kind of thing that justifies an entire (otherwise problematic) system in the game. By comparison, Pantheon’s Aegis of Zeonia allows him to “block” attacks, but this block system is not available to every champion in the game. This not only keeps it from getting out of hand, but makes Pantheon more unique in the process.

With this version of dodge, there is hell more gameplay decision, like disabling dodge with an attack of a mages, building item 3091 against evasion stacker, countering it with item 3140 item 3102 Nocturne Sivir spellshield. If you continue to build gameplay around dodge like the one i proposed with sivir, there will be more gameplay decision like moving to reduce the cooldown of the passive. pantheon isn't the only one who can block an attack, but Shen new W too, Fiora W also blocks attacks, and jax's Counterstrike has been ruined, because giving him 100% made the spell counterproductive. Forcing jax's player to use the spell as a stun since everyone wasn't hitting you during counterstrike. It wasn't a counterstrike but simply a strike.

-Dodge also has much more potential to remove satisfaction in a noticeable way than the other defensive stats, mostly due to its random nature. Failing to finish an opponent with an auto-attack because they happened to get their 5% chance to dodge is a pretty poor experience for the attacker, especially since the escape isn’t based on a good gameplay decision or skill-based way to survive. The fun to un-fun ratio is poor.

no need of comments here!

tl:dr:

{quoted}

His proposal actually has 0 RNG to it, rather dodge would become more like a Banshee's Veil for autoattacks.

100% dodge for 1 attack on a static cooldown, stacking evasion reduces the cooldown of dodge,

50 Comments

ACENOX8 votes

that's a good idea, i think 10 seconds is the perfect cooldown for it i find that this sivir change will make her a niche in duels against Vayne MasterYi

OyddAWqJ5r8 votes

It's a great idea. Something that definitely should be tested. In my head I can see plenty of things going wrong so hopefully tests will fix them.

But 2 major issues.

  • Removes the ability for an enemy to catch someone by surprise Rengar or land their single basic attack for poke Caitlyn item 3094

Thus I believe that Dodge should innantely be disabled until you enter combat -- to which then your dodge cooldown will start. This makes it sound underpowered though, so maybe dodge is enabled after 1 second in combat and removed after 3 seconds out of combat.

Ofcourse this could have exceptions for certain champions whose abilities could read "Enables Dodge upon activation..."

  • The problem of holding onto dodge like a permanent spell shield.

In this case I believe that Dodge's time frame for dodging should be around 1 second. This way you actually have to play around it as the user and the opponent has clear windows where they can and can't attack.

Oh and ofcourse the third problem: the visuals.

All in all though it looks like a really cool idea that I hope Riot looks into.

EDIT: 1 more thing though, I highly disagree with the Wit's End thing. That is specifically the kind of itemization that Riot wanted to avoid in items like Sword of the Divine. Creating hard counters to counters. And an effect such as that is a definite hard counter. The fact that it would exist specifically for dodge means that people would most likely sell their dodge for another item. That or it was on a tank to begin with so the dodge removal hardly matters to them.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

great idea mate !

for the visual something like the old jax's E visual would be really nice

Best princess EU6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rgpEAwzE,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2016-01-17T16:07:51.949+0000)

EDIT: 1 more thing though, I highly disagree with the Wit's End thing. That is specifically the kind of itemization that Riot wanted to avoid in items like Sword of the Divine. Creating hard counters to counters. And an effect such as that is a definite hard counter. The fact that it would exist specifically for dodge means that people would most likely sell their dodge for another item. That or it was on a tank to begin with so the dodge removal hardly matters to them.

not really. item 3153 punishes you for building hp, item 3036 punishes you for building armor.

the item 3091 is the best idea ever, i'm talking about the active, not the fact that it may not be the appropriate item that needs the active.

the active makes it so both players have THEIR CHANCES to win the fight, if jax sees that his dodge was disabled and successes to not fight for 3.5 seconds then he deserves to win (or have an adventage), this is simply again the window of power philosophy.

that's simply better than the old sword of divine, or even worse, item 3153 item 3036 who counters their enemies permanently

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

What's the difference between this Wit's End and old Sword of the Divine? They both serve the same purpose: completely disabling a stat that the other player spent alot of their gold and 1 or 2 item slots to achieve.

You mistake a window of power with the removal of a window of power. Why is the player building dodge being punished for building dodge? If there needs to exist an item purely for hard countering the mechanic then the mechanic has failed. Every other counter item is a soft counter.

Ex. item 3153item 3034item 3151 do not remove bonus Health, they provide bonus power towards healthy opponents. item 3035 does not remove bonus armor, but rather mitigates the effectiveness of it. item 3165 item 3123 does not remove healing, it cuts its power in half under certain circumstances where it can be applied (on hit).

I highly disagree with it. It's nothing more than a reinstatement of Sword of the Divine. Only this time, it provides a teamwide benefit.

Best princess EU1 votes

item 3153 and item 3036 are also removal of power, it may not be totally removed but you're still punished for building hp or armor or sustain and that's permanently. What you're trying to say is that the difference is you keep the stats against the other targets, fine then make the with'end thing only disable dodge for the user.

the difference here between the with'end thing and sword of the divine is that it only works on one target but for all your team which means supports can buy it for their adc

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

How does a team wide vs single user benefit change the fact that the item itself is a failure? What you are saying is that Sword of the Divine should be reinstated. It SHOULDNT. Especially not a buffed version that not only works for the user but instead the whole team.

Edit: If the mechanic's natural windows of power are too powerful to the point where another item is needed to counter the mechanic of a counter mechanic then obviously the mechanic must be overtuned, oppressive or otherwise unbalanced.

That said, upon thinking this through again, I feel as though such a mechanic is obviously far too powerful and complex for simply every champion to have and I further stand by my claim that this would be better on champions themselves. Via updates, reworks or new releases.

That, or have Dodge as a Keystone mastery. For which tree? I'd assume Cunning or Resolve. It's powerful enough to be one.

ModCaptainMårvelous6 votes

Not a bad idea at all man. Very well thoughout.

I'm no balance expert so I don't know how numbers would work but I approve of this idea!

doublelift fg4 votes

If you made this thread 5 years ago, riot may have kept it in the game, now i don't think that they will do anything regarding dodge.

Embertine4 votes

While a good idea, champions like Pantheon whom is capable of chaining three blocks in a row, could use this to make it so they are literally untouchable for four entire seconds early game when in trades. While late game it would only be about for two seconds against any champions that attack roughly twice a second.

I could easily see pantheon abusing this to great extent.

Best princess EU2 votes

{quoted}

While a good idea, champions like Pantheon whom is capable of chaining three blocks in a row, could use this to make it so they are literally untouchable for four entire seconds early game when in trades. While late game it would only be about for two seconds against any champions that attack roughly twice a second.

I could easily see pantheon abusing this to great extent.

item 3091 is made to be effective in this situation (if riot changes it to give an active that disable dodge)

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

It'd most likely be core on him. Thus perhaps they could rework his passive to go on a timer that is reduced by basic attacks and spell casts instead and then scales with dodge chance?

Ex. currently it is: "After applying 4 basic attacks or abilities, Pantheon blocks the next incoming basic attack from an enemy champion, large minion, large monster or turret."

But could be reworked into: "Pantheon is unable to dodge. Instead, every 10 (-1 per 10% dodge chance) seconds Pantheon blocks the next incoming basic attack from an enemy champion, large minion, large monster or turret. Using basic attacks or abilities reduces this cooldown by 2 seconds."

Not like anyone will be building 100% dodge chance on him. So most likely this would amount to Pantheons needing only 3 procs lategame to trigger his passive as opposed to 4.

Orangesilk3 votes

To be fair, I read the title and I immediately thought of dodging as in "Leaving before the game starts" So I pictured Soaz on a tilt going "Nope, fuck it, I got counterpicked, I'm outta here guys, let's try drafting again".

Now on to the serious part, Riot has already decided NOT to balance around dodge existing, and to give you an example I'll talk about Draven Graves and Jhin. These three champions were designed with one thing in mind "They don't hit too often but they hit like a truck". In a world where dodge exists, these champions are entirely nullified out of the roster, all their power gets taken away the second one of their scarce AAs actually gets dodged.

Shaco XinZhao Volibear TwistedFateRengar These champions have interactions with singular AAs, their whole kits work this way, and dodge as a mechanic in general just erases them -for no good reason-. Gangplank barrel is coded as an AA, much like his Q, so we'd have funky interactions with champions dodging what, for most intents and purposes is a spell.

Pantheon, Jax and now Shen are very unique and very specific on how their AA evasion works. By trying to use counterstrike defensively Jax often misses out on his stun, Shen's is tied to a location that is really hard to control given how hard is it to move the sword around. Pantheon is interesting because, as a bruiser, his only means of a defensive steroid is his passive, this and considering how hard does Pantheon deflate, it's very acceptable to give him that of power.

Let's not include Fiora in this discussion, she dodges EVERYTHING, (so her counterstrike is more akin to a Playful/Trickster that punishes you) So her situation is a tad different.

EDIT: I hadn't even thought of Darius Mordekaiser Nasus Nautilus TahmKench, there's too many interactions already designed around a world where dodge doesn't exist.

KONO RUBICK DA4 votes

{quoted}

Now on to the serious part, Riot has already decided NOT to balance around dodge existing, and to give you an example I'll talk about Draven Graves and Jhin. These three champions were designed with one thing in mind "They don't hit too often but they hit like a truck". In a world where dodge exists, these champions are entirely nullified out of the roster, all their power gets taken away the second one of their scarce AAs actually gets dodged.

so you mean that dodge would be great against high AD low attack speed champions, that's good, at least dodge is countered by attack speed unlike old dodge.

to answer to you: yes they would be countered, but it doesn't mean that they won't be able to do anything, jhin for example can 100-0 70% of league's champions just with his ulti.

Got New Glasses2 votes

not saying your wrong, but "don't hit too often" that's false for draven, unlikes graves and jhin he has a high attack speed and a high base attack speed (0.679)

Sasogwa3 votes

The little problem of this is it allows champions with short trades + escape to have a huge power. I'll trade you everytime I got my evasion back up, aaaand there's nothing you can do. This can be abused, because as skilled as it is, it can become oppressive on someone hard to catch, and as you burst them they've got evasion which is huge. I think it'd pose more problems than it'd solve, as it is a lot of power in a small window, beneficiating champions who like short window trades (as I already said) instead of a small power in average (% damage reduction or % dodge)

KONO RUBICK DA2 votes

{quoted}

as it is a lot of power in a small window,

that's literally riot, repertoir said that recently the balance team/design team tries to make as much window of power as possible, shen's W for example.

let's see how shen's player will use their W, will they run when their W is on cooldown?

Icestar11863 votes

Bringing back Dodge at all would be a horrible mistake.

KONO RUBICK DA5 votes

{quoted}

Bringing back Dodge at all would be a horrible mistake.

all the reasons riot listed are no longer valid like op showed in his thread

answer? No

Skypual2 votes

Amumu

Ahristocats5 votes

{quoted}

Dodge is unneeded mechanic, it brings more RNG to game, also your changes nerf and buff champions which don't deserve it.

i told you to read the whole thread, there isn't a single RNG. counterstrike needs to be changed because it's counter-productive right now, while sivir and udyr changes aren't necessary

Skypual3 votes

Oh okay, but there is no reason that dodge or evasion as you call it should be back in the game. What does it bring? It just makes bruisers op and nerfs adcs for no reason at all.

Ahristocats9 votes

{quoted}

Oh okay, but there is no reason that dodge or evasion as you call it should be back in the game. What does it bring? It just makes bruisers op and nerfs adcs for no reason at all.

it brings new unique mechanics, plenty of decisions and gameplay to refresh the game, it fixes jax's frustrated counterstrike and allows item 3091 to have a niche. bruisers op? not really, it increases their power slightly since they are able to dodge 500 damage every 10 seconds, not only this power is conditional but it also counters bruisers, they are the class that have the most on-hit effect.

in fact, bruisers will be MORE nerfed than adc, they can't proc item 3091 item 3071 item 3748 item 3078 on-hit-effect, and champions like Irelia are MORE nerfed if they can't attack.

don't talk like you can predict how the game will be

Skypual2 votes

Okay* after reading your thread thoroughly, Every ADC will build Phantom Dancer, "It brings new unique mechanics, plenty of decisions and gameplay to refresh the game" Unique mechanic which is unneeded, it doesn't refresh the game it just makes it unnecessarily complex. Also it destroys Rapid Firecannon as everytime you have it it will get blocked, and you won't be able to poke with it, it's also unneeded nerf to twisted fate, garen and others who apply CC/damage on hit.

Also it will be nerf to mages/assassins who use Lich Bane and nerf to Ezreal and Gangplank as well because it will block their Qs. Phantom Dancer will be op item which every ADC will build and for some reason you have no idea why you're even proposing this change.

Got New Glasses2 votes

{quoted}

Okay* after reading your thread thoroughly, Every ADC will build Phantom Dancer, "It brings new unique mechanics, plenty of decisions and gameplay to refresh the game" Unique mechanic which is unneeded, it doesn't refresh the game it just makes it unnecessarily complex. Also it destroys Rapid Firecannon as everytime you have it it will get blocked, and you won't be able to poke with it, it's also unneeded nerf to twisted fate, garen and others who apply CC/damage on hit.

Also it will be nerf to mages/assassins who use Lich Bane and nerf to Ezreal and Gangplank as well because it will block their Qs. Phantom Dancer will be op item which every ADC will build and for some reason you have no idea why you're even proposing this change.

will be a nerf, doesn't mean they can't do anything about it. and twisted fate does need a nerf, riot wasn't able to balance him in pro since 2010. watch his history of nerfs, if dodge ends up being too strong against twisted fate they can finally revert one of the biggest nerfs he received since 2010 especially that twisted fate has a good affinity with item 3091 and can buy it.

item 3094 generation is faster than 10 seconds, if not riot can increase the cooldown of evasion, and remember that not ALL enemies have dodge,

item 3046 will no-where be op, dodge in general won't be op as old dodge. Old dodge completly negated basic attacks when it was stacked, With what op proposed, it will counter an attack every 10 sec in average, if the enemy team is Fiddlesticks +Malphite Orianna dodge will NOT even be a help, so it has its niche against on-hit effect champs like TwistedFate . item 3046 will fulfill even better its niche: an item to duel built on Tryndamere MasterYi Jax

overall, the problem you listed are 80% of numbers

Skypual2 votes

Twisted Fate never builds Wit's End, only off meta TF jungle build uses it. And at least 3 champions will have dodge in each team, one will be ADC with PD, and Top laner and Jungler will build boots. Support CAN build it and midlaner can also build it, Twisted Fate does not need a nerf he's strong because of his teleport + gold cards and if the card is blocked by evasion then he becomes useless. ADC with PD will have advantage over ADC with Shiv/RFC/Runaan's for no reason at all.

And also only Tryndamere will build is as Jax and Yi don't use crit builds, Yi can use AD crit build still tho.

And evasion will never have higher cooldown than 8 seconds on ADCs, and 9 seconds on other champions.

I just see no use for dodge...

PrinceOfStorms7 votes

His proposal actually has 0 RNG to it, rather dodge would become more like a Banshee's Veil for autoattacks.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

His proposal actually has 0 RNG to it, rather dodge would become more like a Banshee's Veil for autoattacks.

It's more like a Panth passive.

That being said, I dislike this because it's too good at stopping Assassins like Kha'Zix. Rengo is different, he's just flat out a problem.

Best princess EU2 votes

{quoted}

Dodge is unneeded mechanic, it brings more RNG to game, also your changes nerf and buff champions which don't deserve it.

escuse me sir, i think you have a memory trouble, there is 0 rng

Skypual1 votes

OH CONGRATS You're 4th person who said it.

LilxPaprika2 votes

can you make a tl:dl? i think dodge could come in the form of: item 3143 and its crit dmg reduction. so you'd have like AA dmg reduction (Including On-hit effects) . a bit like armor but with uniquely useful against AA. so not vs ad spell like armor has.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

{quoted}

can you make a tl:dl? i think dodge could come in the form of: item 3143 and its crit dmg reduction. so you'd have like AA dmg reduction (Including On-hit effects) . a bit like armor but with uniquely useful against AA. so not vs ad spell like armor has.

randuin is an anti-crit item, dodge is an anti- on-hit-effect item so it would be fine if it remains the same (i think)

DarkSunSovereign2 votes

Why fix something that's not broken?

Best princess EU4 votes

{quoted}

Why fix something that's not broken?

i think op is an old jax player that misses a real counterstrike. i agree with him, and his version of counterstrike seems good and not broken unlike the old counterstrike that stunned you every 2 seconds.

the other changes (sivir and udyr) are arguable

thumbnail91 votes

While I like the idea you have going here. However, what would be the point of a item that disables it if you can attack it and it goes on cd? Burning it would be more effective then disabling it through whit's end. Whit's end would be good if you could get the dodge proc down to like 1.5 seconds.

Also you would be adding a lot of 100% damage reduction into the game and that's even worse then "ha ha you missed me" because it would be a regular occurrence. You would have to ramp up damage taken just for the fact say every 3-4 seconds LMAO what you did, did 0. Also Whit's end proc would have to be something more like 10 seconds to actually be effective.

Ahristocats1 votes

{quoted}

While I like the idea you have going here. However, what would be the point of a item that disables it if you can attack it and it goes on cd? Burning it would be more effective then disabling it through whit's end. Whit's end would be good if you could get the dodge proc down to like 1.5 seconds.

Also you would be adding a lot of 100% damage reduction into the game and that's even worse then "ha ha you missed me" because it would be a regular occurrence. You would have to ramp up damage taken just for the fact say every 3-4 seconds LMAO what you did, did 0. Also Whit's end proc would have to be something more like 10 seconds to actually be effective.

i don't decide the numbers, riot does.

the idea was to not force players to buy with'end, but with'end is here for champions like TwistedFate who needs to disable it because they need their first attack item 3091 is also here on champions who dodge often like Sivir (if they decide to bring back her passive) , or Jax it's a good item against him to prevent him from stuning you

LOL Spammer1 votes

Damn I thought this was going to be a thread about how to incorporate dodging for champ select trolls. We need that as well, good post tho.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Good approach, good idea, didn't read the numbers.

I don't like it. I think you are onto something really cool, but I'm just not a big fan, honestly. Doesn't feel like dodge belongs in this game to me, and I'm not itching to get it back. If I were, I would LOVE your idea, though. Great design.

Auroramancer1 votes

You've made a case for HOW this would be implemented, but you didn't really make the case for WHY this should be implemented.

Got New Glasses3 votes

{quoted}

You've made a case for HOW this would be implemented, but you didn't really make the case for WHY this should be implemented.

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rgpEAwzE,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2016-01-17T11:38:34.766+0000)

it brings new unique mechanics, plenty of decisions and gameplay to refresh the game, it fixes jax's frustrated counterstrike and allows item 3091 to have a niche

-new mechanics are welcomed in a game if it isn't unbalanced -by this logic item 3056 why would you disable a tower? because riot wanted to introduce new mechanics and they thought to a mechanic that disable a tower. -riot readded multiples mechanics that were unhealthy for the game after fixing them such as item 3123

Starfish H1 votes

Dodge is like double team or minimize from Pokemon. It's cheap, dirty, only works on your self, yet it can be used to turn around flights into your favor and you are an asshole if you spam it. SCREW YOU KOGA'S MUK.

Pawn of hearts1 votes

i stop reading after i read

"Please read the WHOLE thread or go to the tl:dr"

Tribbles Foxfolk1 votes

They could also just copy Dota 2's system of Evasion and just add a rip-off of Monkey King Bar so ADCs can go back to Season 6-ing each other.

KONO RUBICK DA2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Eevee Girl Alex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rgpEAwzE,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2016-01-17T22:35:32.769+0000)

They could also just copy Dota 2's system of Evasion and just add a rip-off of Monkey King Bar so ADCs can go back to Season 6-ing each other.

dota 2's dodge system isn't even close to be good, monkey king bar needs to cost so much gold to not fuck up champions that stack dodge, which makes it impossible to buy if behind.

and the true reason is that it doesn't feet with riot's game design.

Tribbles Foxfolk1 votes

{quoted}

dota 2's dodge system isn't even close to be good, monkey king bar needs to cost so much gold to not fuck up champions that stack dodge, which makes it impossible to buy if behind.

and the true reason is that it doesn't feet with riot's game design.

It's better than "Hey I can literally never be traded against while it's off cooldown lmao smd420". At least you have a CHANCE to hit Phantom Assassin, Butterfly users, and even the infamous Arc Warden AoE, even if you lack Monkey King Bar.

I think I'll take my chances with a dice roll vs. a guaranteed lost trade.

Miraweave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Eevee Girl Alex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rgpEAwzE,comment-id=001200000000,timestamp=2016-01-17T22:49:10.987+0000)

It's better than "Hey I can literally never be traded against while it's off cooldown lmao smd420". At least you have a CHANCE to hit Phantom Assassin, Butterfly users, and even the infamous Arc Warden AoE, even if you lack Monkey King Bar.

I think I'll take my chances with a dice roll vs. a guaranteed lost trade.

Or how about none of the above because RNG is stupid too?

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

I like the idea, though I'm unsure about the numbers enough I can't provide advice.

However I can monologue a bit about the past of dodge; I remember part of why they removed it was because of RNG (yet critical is still around), and the less known reason is that most people didn't use the counter item. 'Sword of the Divine' was the direct counter to dodge in season 1 & 2, but when they removed dodge, this item was deleted as well; I don't remember the exact numbers, though I remember it had movement speed & attack speed. The unique passive that made it the counter to anyone with dodge, it made the user ignored dodge chance of their target; that's huge, yet so few people even built it that riot just hand-waved it's existence, instead of pointing it out as the counter option. Maybe if people stopped building the randuin's omen, riot would remove critical chance . . . Thought experiment aside, I'd say by all means bring dodge back; but make there's more than one counter, though that don't outright circumvent it either.

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