Can we admit that the Veigar rework was a complete and utter failure?

Kowe The Ewok·Jun 1, 2015·63 votes·6,700 views

Yes, you do have more shiny AP. But your ult deals 20% less Bonus AP damage and the cooldown on your Q was significantly increased.

Not to mention the stun which can easily be flashed and avoided now.

Seriously, veigar was supposed to be compensated and buffed for the DFG removal... Not rendered useless.

I have never seen so few Veigar players as we have now... It's especially sad because veigar just got popular as a support before the nerfba...rework hit...

86 Comments

PiRoScOuTJun 1, 201511 votes

and then they insult Veigar by releasing Ekko (his ratios are insane)

UPfreelyJun 2, 20151 votes

that superior aoe stun too...

DEN TEL0SJun 2, 20151 votes

That's a bit iffy. The only reason it's better then Veigar's stun is because it is area of effect. You get about the same amount of warning.

UPfreelyJun 2, 20152 votes

if only veigars' stun slowed enemies and gave him a huge shield... plus ekko doesn't rely on his stun to land anything... and its a one point wonder, where veigar doesnt get 2.25 duration till rank 4

just landing them though... veigars relies on the stupidity of others where ekko is based on his aim...

Curling VeigarJun 1, 20158 votes

idk about complete and utter failure, but I agree with his changes except for the ult change which I hate

Zenthon PrimeJun 1, 20151 votes

I'd even be ok with the ult nerf if the ult got better in some other way.

DracidJun 2, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I'd even be ok with the ult nerf if the ult got better in some other way.

how can you make an ability that can kill someone with one button better?

Tannhäuser GateJun 2, 20152 votes

If you want to really make it better you could give it an enemy's AD scaling component as well as the AP part

DracidJun 2, 20153 votes

{quoted}

If you want to really make it better you could give it an enemy's AD scaling component as well as the AP part

god no. thatd just be stupid. His ult doesnt need a buff in any way shape or form. I dont think it needs a nerf per se but some kind of design change. pressing R to 100-0 someone is just silly since there is no counter play to it.

Idea i'll throw out for the sake of an idea, make it a long range skill shot that does more damage the farther it goes, like jinx. global or whatever. Would suck losing the targetable aspect of it but its not a good skill in terms of gameplay mechanic as is right now

ChaoticPineconeJun 2, 20153 votes

if youre an APC, you can zhonyas it. its not great counterplay as you can do this for most ults, but zhonya on a single target ult with a significant cooldown makes him think twice before ulting.

Voluug13Jun 2, 20151 votes

god no. thatd just be stupid. His ult doesnt need a buff in any way shape or form. I dont think it needs a nerf per se but some kind of design change. pressing R to 100-0 someone is just silly since there is no counter play to it.

Zed

''Just buy Zhonia's, noob''

Ironically, Veigar's Ult is more screwed by Zhonia's that Zeds.

make it a long range skill shot that does more damage the farther it goes, like jinx. global or whatever.

Only if we remove every unconditional mobility fro the game and players rely on skill to evade skllshots.

Otherwise, point&click CC/Nukes are needed in this game.

DracidJun 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

''Just buy Zhonia's, noob''

Ironically, Veigar's Ult is more screwed by Zhonia's that Zeds.

Only if we remove every unconditional mobility fro the game and players rely on skill to evade skllshots.

Otherwise, point&click CC/Nukes are needed in this game.

I disagree. Zeds ult takes longer to do and there is quite a delay that they enemy has to use Zhonyas. Veigars ult takes way less time to hit then it does for zeds

DEN TEL0SJun 2, 20152 votes

I could live with the ult nerf if Veigar has some kind of defense, but without the instant stun anyone with mobility can kill him and he can't do anything.

DrCabesJun 1, 20158 votes

The Q change feels kind of neutral, trading harass for safer farming, which helps a bit with the worse E. The E change was a nerf that probably needed to happen. But compensating for that with a nerf to his ult? Maybe if they just nerfed the bonus ratio for the enemy's ap instead of his own I wouldn't mind as much. He doesn't need too much help but he could use a few minor buffs and I don't know why Riot has gone completely dark on this.

FistOfSharkieshaJun 2, 20154 votes

I don't understand how so many people haven't caught on that his new Q is just as bad, possibly worse than his old Q. I mained Veigar and I was quite consistent at last hit Qing nearly every minion in the wave. Now you have 0 assured damage on an enemy champion besides your ult, and your dark matter is much harder to hit with such a crappy delayed stun. The number of minions in a wave have stayed the same, his farming is even less reliable now. He was completely and utterly destroyed. They nerfed him after the dfg removal and before that his win rate wasn't even 50%. They are seriously just kicking a man while he's down.

DEN TEL0SJun 2, 20151 votes

I like the new Q because I can attack into bushes and over walls without vision.

AspynnJun 1, 20158 votes

Honestly I thought everyone was over this by now. Most of the people that complained about it early on have come out and said "Hey! Sorry, I was wrong, Veigar is awesome now!" I think the new veigar is still plenty strong, and the only reason he was really changed was because his instant stun was way too op, (Shut up about annie already, we all know her passive is strong and her ult needs a delay) His ult could still use a buff, but it's completely unnecessary for you to call the veigar rework "A complete failure" When champs get changes, they change. If you don't like not being able to 1hit any squishy on the enemy team whether they built any ap or not then perhaps you should pick up leblanc. Keep in mind, although veigars ult got a 20% ratio nerf, an item was released that adds a 15% ratio on your first damaging ability casts, so regardless of whether or not it hits with your ult, his rotation will steal deal almost the same damage as before, if not more if it procs twice. DFG was too strong, and really with veigar's ult ratio as it was he didn't even need it to 1hit someone lategame. Veigar is still very strong now, stronger than a lot of other champions that (reworked or not) nobody is bitching about atm. (Hello Elise Evelynn Quinn Tristana

Sorry if this seems like an angry rant, but I'm sort of speaking from the rework designer's point of view. How would you like it if someone called your work over the course of a few months "A complete and utter failure"? Veigar is no longer TOXIC to the game. He was underplayed before for whatever reason, but he was not a healthy champion. He is now balanced, and in a pretty good place. Everyone has their bad matchups, and not everyone fits into the meta.

ArkenStormJun 2, 20151 votes

Thank you. A Veigar main before and after.the changes. I think a delay should be reduced to make it more reliable

DEN TEL0SJun 3, 20151 votes

I played him a lot before, and I am having trouble with the new Veigar. You have any advice. When I play him I feel like I have no defense.

ArkenStormJun 3, 20151 votes

Ok so basically you have to get out of the mentality that your e has to be the stun to be worth it. You use it to deny them farm, stay back and harass by qing one minion to last hit and hitting your opponent with the next hit. If they are inside your cage, w to where you think they will go. Veigar is now more of a Xerath playstyle, where you whittle them down until they leave lane or you can kill them. Rush seraphs and deathcap, honestly I don't even get ludens on him. You farm from under turret, play safe until you emerge in the late game as a monster. Use e to cut off their escape. The new q made him a lot safer

GavranJun 2, 20151 votes

Word. I played with a good Veigar semi-recently, and it made me want to give the rework a try. Old Veigar was boring, you either deleted someone or you didn't.

What ability do you generally max first and what item do you generally rush these days?

AspynnJun 2, 20152 votes

Maxing Q first is the best for farming and poke and damage, and I think Seraphs is probably the best rush over ludens since ludens can fuck up your farming. You could also just rush rabadons/zhonyas, rabadons actually is a decent rush because your ap will just get higher and higher as you stack.

GavranJun 2, 20151 votes

Makes sense, mana to keep that Q rolling which in turn gives you AP to make up for not rushing something with more damage than tear + rod. I think I'll try it soon. :)

Devack The HolyJun 2, 20151 votes

Elise, Eve, and Trist were all nerfed heavily, and Quinn was just a bad design in general.

ModKnightsKemplarJun 2, 20157 votes

It's an improvement over toxic Veigar. Does he need love? Yes. Absolutely.

But he also needed the AoE insta-stun gone.

Kowe The EwokJun 2, 20155 votes

Toxic Veigar? The former Veigar was underplayed and had a slightly beneath average winrate. He wasn't never a toxic element that threatened the meta in a negative way.

Yes, that stun was instant - but it had a short range and to fair, I haven't seen many Veigars who continiously managed to pull out that impressive stuns, It had a very special hitbox and very specific range.

Not to mention that there's always Tenacity, QSS and cleanse.

ModKnightsKemplarJun 2, 20154 votes

None of your points counter mine, in my opinion.

Yes, tenacity, QSS, and cleanse exist. Doesn't make an instant AoE stun okay.

Yes, few people played him. Doesn't make an instant AoE stun okay.

Yes, he lost more than he won. I never said he wasn't balanced, just unhealthy.

Lots of people thought it was toxic, and I'm one of those people.

Devack The HolyJun 2, 20153 votes

Ekko. That is all. And the AOE on his stun is more than Veigar's.

ModKnightsKemplarJun 3, 20151 votes

It's my understanding that Ekko's stun isn't instant... no? So it's inherently different.

Also, there are champs that are equally toxic (hey there Annie). My point remains that AoE instant stun coupled with insane burst is unhealthy.

DEN TEL0SJun 3, 20152 votes

If you don't see him activate the spell you get the same amount of warning as you do with Veigars. But Ekko's is area of effect making it more useful.

ModKnightsKemplarJun 3, 20151 votes

So... If Ekko hides in a bush on specific areas on the map, then he has a similar ability to Veigar all the time... Because he's hiding. As every champion in the game can do from bush.

In my opinion, that's not really the same thing.

DEN TEL0SJun 6, 20151 votes

I mean if you don't notice him cast it. A circle appears on the ground like it does for veigar's stun you get the same amount of time before the stun activates. The biggest difference is Veigar's stun is just the edge, but Ekko gets the whole inside.

A Miss FortuneJun 2, 20156 votes

The Veigar rework wasn't that bad, I know a bunch of people dislike them but he was overpowered, his stun was instant and you had to be blind to miss it, not to mention you didn't even have to legitimately hit them since it's a box. His Q and R were skillshots and he could easily instakill people with very, very little counterplay to it.

Currently people are complaining about Leblanc having no counterplay to her, the only difference between her and Veigar was that he wasn't hypermobile, he was definitely more balanced though. He had to get much closer with less of an escape, but either way he just instakilled people and you couldn't do anything about it such as dodging.

The current Veigar could use a buff, preferably to his Q so it did more early game damage. Otherwise I think he's a great mid - late game champion since he can easily get more Ability Power and his Ultimate can one shot (yes, one shot, just the ultimate) a lot of AP Carries. Cassiopeia being an example of this, he just hits R and one shots her. However, Veigar still could use a small buff.

All in all I sort of like the rework but Veigar still needs a buff to his Q damage.

Kowe The EwokJun 2, 20159 votes

Sorry, but, where is this bullshit coming from? Overpowered? He had less than 50% winrate and there were few Veigar players.

Veigar NEVER was overpowered. You seem to have very scrambled memories of him...

Robert SmithJun 2, 20153 votes

He was gain in popularity though which scared Riot so they decided to push the Nerf on his E

Devack The HolyJun 2, 20154 votes

"Q and R were skillshots"

Son, you have never played Veigar. Neither was a skillshot before the rework, and R is STILL not a skillshot.

RedCycloneJun 2, 20156 votes

the fucker doesn't even see Luden's as a priority item ( considering it was supposed to fill the hole DFG left )

Silents429Jun 2, 20153 votes

Ludens wasn't suppose to replace DFG just add a new AP niche item.

Slamurai JackJun 2, 20154 votes

His win rate is higher now than it was before he was reworked. If you want to make the argument that he doesn't feel as good, fine. If you feel like Veigar is ruined because he's not the champ you enjoyed before, that's ok too. But he's definitely not weaker than he was before. His rework was initially considered a failure because his numbers were horribly undertuned. But after a number of buffs, and a willingness to play him as he is rather than trying to force him into his old playstyle; he's a solid champion. He's a very strong control mage now, and should be played as such. He has has 3 powerful zoning tools; the AOE W that does a ton of damage, the stun wall E that stops all dashes (have fun Leblanc), and his ult that can easily explode anyone who doesn't respect your zone. He is no longer a stun bot that just instastuns and then 1 shots 1 guy every teamfight. And I'm glad that stupidity is gone.

Very Hard EngageJun 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rf4oRa9x,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2015-06-02T00:35:11.358+0000)

His win rate is higher now than it was before he was reworked. If you want to make the argument that he doesn't feel as good, fine. If you feel like Veigar is ruined because he's not the champ you enjoyed before, that's ok too. But he's definitely not weaker than he was before. His rework was initially considered a failure because his numbers were horribly undertuned. But after a number of buffs, and a willingness to play him as he is rather than trying to force him into his old playstyle; he's a solid champion. He's a very strong control mage now, and should be played as such. He has has 3 powerful zoning tools; the AOE W that does a ton of damage, the stun wall E that stops all dashes (have fun Leblanc), and his ult that can easily explode anyone who doesn't respect your zone. He is no longer a stun bot that just instastuns and then 1 shots 1 guy every teamfight. And I'm glad that stupidity is gone.

no it wasn't, veigar had a 47% win rate before, after his rework it became 39%, then they proceeded to overload his Q until it became 47% again.

Slamurai JackJun 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

no it wasn't, veigar had a 47% win rate before, after his rework it became 39%, then they proceeded to overload his Q until it became 47% again.

My bad, his win rate as a whole is 47%, yes. but his winrate in plat+ is 50+% where people actually know what they're doing (more or less) and know how to abuse control mages. Anivias win rate in plat+ is much higher than her total win rate for the same reason.

Very Hard EngageJun 2, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rf4oRa9x,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2015-06-02T10:44:23.785+0000)

My bad, his win rate as a whole is 47%, yes. but his winrate in plat+ is 50+% where people actually know what they're doing (more or less) and know how to abuse control mages. Anivias win rate in plat+ is much higher than her total win rate for the same reason.

and his win rate in challenger NA is 0%, picked 4 times last month and lost all 4. and if you look at since release 5.4 its 31%, showing that higher tier players know how to capitalize on his glaring weaknesses. and not to mention dabox quit, bjergsen, hai, pobelter, feveben, hotshotgg, etc haven't played him at all since 5.4, bjerg used to several times a month, now its zero. tell me their opinions are worthless.

The SoulforgedJun 1, 20153 votes

Oh, they buffed Veigar's w! If only I could hit it...

sodamnhungryJun 2, 20153 votes

Yup, every single change was a complete and utter f*** up. Just destroyed him.

AlgurmorbidJun 2, 20153 votes

As a person who used to play Veigar a lot, I was absolutely appaled by the rework. I felt it robbed him of so much power he didn't have there. Recently I started relearning him, and I find that he is still alright. His E takes some learning to get used to but I feel it's still good. His Q having increased range helps when up against mid laners who can bully him. I feel, if buffs were given to Veigar, it should be given to his survivability as that is the one issue. It is not worth building a lot of defensives on Veigar as if you get caught, you will die 9 times out of 10. item 3157 and summoner spells are really the only defenses Veigar can have. I feel that as Veigar you have to be really careful about entering a teamfight at less than 80% Health because people WILL focus you. Learning to play around with the E to kite is something that should be learnt first rather than it's offensive uses. I personally dislike his passive but a lot of people say that it is useful. I find that it barely regenerates mana during early, and you don't need a lot of mana regen afterwards due to your nature of 1 and done combos. The damage on his R is fine with me, while I do miss it's old 1.2 scaling I can still get plenty of kills without the extra 0.2 of damage.

Really I feel that Veigar is alright, just not on par with a lot of other mids, so he needs some form of compensation, however I don't think more damage would be it.

Rabid HuskyJun 2, 20152 votes

in all honesty its his e is the only real thing that they ruined with him since now you gotta get champs targeted in the middle to grab em

His GoatlinessJun 2, 20151 votes

I'm ok with all the changes...Except his E having a massive cast time. ".5 seconds it's massive" you say. It is when basically every champ you play against in mid has a dash/blink/jump/etc... He's still "good", just not in a way that's competitive.

GavranJun 2, 20152 votes

This forum... "0.5 seconds is way too slow!" "Ekko's 3 second stun is a slap in the face of Veigar players, it's so much better!"

Devack The HolyJun 2, 20152 votes

To be fair, Ekko's a slap in the face of mage players, period. It's just that he slaps Veigar players with his dick.

GavranJun 2, 20151 votes

I'm talking about the 3 second delay on his stun it's not a 3 second duration...