An Exhaustive list of Sona's problems and how Riot can potentially fixe them

Ahristocats··45 votes·5,945 views

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Before begining a long road to clear sona's problems, i have few things to say. I'm making the premise that Sona isn't expected to build 600 ap but rather build utility items just like any enchenters this is important because i want to avoid pointless arguing with people about artificial scaling, AP ratios on heals/shields and other shit like that. i don't know if this thread has some real objectives. I mean it's clear that riot doesn't want Sona to be more than a "braindead support" when Fearless says that she wouldn't be Sona anymore if gets skillshots on her Q/W/E. Let's just say that thread was made to kill time and maybe a desperate attempt to attract Riot's attention I made previously multiple threads talking about sona's problems but i never really suggested changes, when people asked me how i would fixe sona's problems i had 0 idea on how to make a music based enchenter fun to play, with counterplay, skill expression, and overall balanced around all elo (instead of plat+)

What are the problems? currently Sona has problems on different lvls

First problem: the most annoying one, She's balanced around plat+. Sona's kit makes her a nightmare to balance around all elo (from bronze to challenger) Her spells are the epitom of no-counterplay spells (powerchord, and W mostly) and non-interactive spells, this makes riot forced to balance her around other "area" like her range, her base movement speed+base stats, AND her numbers (Q=trash damage, W= trash healing, E= trash movement speed buff until late game) making unexperienced enemies unable to know truely what to do against Sona. While in high elo, Players will abuse her low movement speed (325) and her range to out-trade her (sona is forced to land an auto-attack to poke since her Q damage will be sustained back if she doesn't hit) if they extend the trade, she's mostly done for because she has no way to answer once Q is on cd unlike Nami who has her E, or lulu who has her passive. Additionally it's even better if they force her to use her W because it costs ~23% of her mana in lane for 35 hp heal and 30 hp shield. This is the reason why some high elo sona players are griefed if they pick Sona, the adc just don't want to lane with a Sona because it all depends on if the enemies know how to And Honestly if everyone knew how to play against Sona i wouldn't give her win rate that much time before it drops, but thing is you can't know how to play against Sona by looking at her kit one or two time. And since they can't, Sona is able to cheese low elo, then with an AP build combined with item 3100 (which is impossible to build in high elo unless you snowballed the game very roughly) destroys them without counterplay. This problem is double, because Sona's current kit was made a long time ago where riot didn't care about niche of champions(which is why most of old champions got reworked) Current Sona is a generalist that does not have any strategy behind the pick Thresh can be picked to counter j4/juggernauts (due to the lantern) Sona is picked if she is numerically superior to Lulu/Nami/karma ect.. AND THIS IS A PROBLEM i remind you that they are reworking maokai because his kit makes the competition between him and other tanks impossible if maokai is viable

Second problem: Very unpleasing gameplay, and here you have to listen to the explination because it isn't related with the fact Sona's kit is too simple. Supports's gameplay is generally tied with the power of life and death, If you play a support you control the life of your allies as well as the death of enemies. Best examples of well-designed supports are TahmKench who can save allies and kill enemies with his ult/Q/W, Bard who can both save allies and kill enemies with Q/W/E/R, Thresh of course with his lantern and his hook, Braum Karma Janna Lulu Alistar All of those supports fall in this category This makes them able to carry their team hard while being thanked by their mates, even Janna who's too simple can carry by cancelling many dashes with her Q/R and in high elo those janna players are always praised by their teammates With Sona IT'S TOTALLY THE OPPOSITE ON EVERYTHING. You don't save allies, you don't help to kill enemies (unless you burst them) "she has cresendo" How many time did you see a Sona saving someone than a thresh saving someone with lantern? cresendo has a VERY long cd, it's like saying you can escape from j4 ult with flash you can but it is just not reliable. The thing is you don't save allies with Sona, you spam Q/W/E to help your allies to win a teamfight, for real THIS IS ALL I DO beside using ult once a while. I know i'm helping, but i can't see , it's impossible to see the impact of +80 on-hit magical damage and 130 hp shield. i know i'm helping because it's on low cd but i just can't see the impact that i have with thresh when i save someone with the lantern And this is why power chord is only used for damage by all Sona players, you can't see anything changed with diminuendo, i know -25% damage is a lot but it's literally invisible you still have the impression that the enemies are doing damage which is why no one will tell you "Thanks Sona!!!! if you didn't hit with diminuendo right there i would have been dead!" it's the same with offense, have you ever saw Sona allowing her team to have more kills than a thresh or any other support? Song of Celerity is weak until late game, cresendo has a low range (900 but due to the travel time and cast time it can't be used to reach this range since enemies can run out of the range in the meantime) Remember the power of life and death? i dare you to play Sona and see if you have this power All you have by playing Sona is a massive amount of invisible power that helps to win a teamfight

Third problem: no skill expression. Have you ever realised that beside the player base of Sona no one is going to play her? you have to wonder if a support main will ever first time Sona in ranked (unless she's very broken). what players search in champions is :-fun gameplay, we have seen that invisible power is very frustrating in having fun, i suspect that Sona players only have fun by bursting people

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-skillfloor, players want to feel different from players that play the same champion. They want to do things that make them feel that not everyone could do it i'm honestly frustrated by playing Sona just by knowing that me and Colazor do the exact same thing. Our gameplay cannot be different, as Darius i can stop dashes with E, as janna i can stop dashes with Q/R, as Sona... Sona's kit doesn't allow any skilled move AND any skilled decision this is really sad. "what about using the right powerchord"? again ask yourself if anyone is realising that you played very well by choosing a good power chord? the answer is simply no one because (while diminuendo is also invisible power) most of Sona's power relies in Q/W/E, her passive is just some single target power but nothing major. Choosing the right power chord will occure once a while for little changes, even her slow doesn't change something (2 sec 40% slow compared to Lulu Braum Karma or whatever you want) If you play Sona, outplaying enemies is hard. And enemies outplaying you is also hard

What fixes can we bring to Sona? A full scale rework, a Sona lvl of rework. I honestly have no idea how to fixe the 3 problems above while keeping sona's current kit, creating a kit revolving around aura while balancing it around all elo giving it skillfloor, and making it fun to play is beyond my imagination. Can someone do it? this is unknown to me, but 7 years of league have proven that Sona cannot be balanced around all elo even if she would get a rework that tries to keep her old kit (4.13)

What should this rework do? like i said, fixe the 3 problems above. And the next question is how, well let's start with skillfloor: what supports all have that increases their skillfloor? the answer is spells that work in a lot of situations, ie: spells that work on allies AND enemies Bard ult Lulu W+E TahmKench W Zilean E

but also spells that have more than one way to use: Thresh Q and E Braum E

a great way to make a support or any other champion having a high skillfloor is to not give them one-dimensional spells

This comes along with an interesting gameplay, Instead of invisible power Sona should have unique abilities, not a generic kit don't bring me the "enchenters can't be unique" Ivern Bard have both unique spells that give them a niche (right now ivern has no niche because he's busted, but normally he would be picked to help melees),those new abilities should be tied with counterplay, and make her feeling that she's useful. Remember the power of life and death?

i still didn't talk about it, but of course her theme should remain the same

So here is what an ideal kit looks like: passive: forgive me for this but i literally have no idea for her passive, the kit i have in my mind would revolve around her E. As for her passive maybe something that makes her as hard to kill as lulu or janna. would be kinda cool if it was related with the number 4, just for the Jhin Sona interaction (lulz)

E: power chord range: 550---->point and click---->same visual effect----->low cooldown (5 or 4 seconds)

Sona throws an enchented attack to a target (ally or enemies) dealing true damage then heals over a duration (i don't know what the duration would be) damage and healing numbers depend on if the target is an ally or an enemy (damage is higher if it's an enemy something like 260 damage 130 healing, healing is higher if it's an ally) multiple instances of healing can be stacked

"wowow rubick what's going on, Sona would be able to damage an ally and heal an enemy?" First she wouldn't be allowed to execute allies. Second Theorically no she can't, since the total damage or total healing are made to make it so sona will always deal damage/heal (since it's true damage she can't heal a target that has a lot of magic resistance). And the healing is over a duration so an enemy can die before being healed "then why give it damage+heal on both enemies and allies?" well to create a kit that doesn't work like the other, and to understand this we have to look at Q and W

Q: hymn of valor: range: long range----->skillshot------->same visual effect(maybe improved) long cooldown

channels for up to 1.5 second to play music and charge power(think of vladimir's E) during that time sona can move but is slowed after channeling for 1 second. When released, Sona unleashes a bolt of sound dealing damage in a small area around the target (think of karma's Q) if the spell was channeled for at least one second, enemies are slowed If enemies were affected by power chord healing , hymn of valor puts an end to the healing instances

W: Area of preservence (maybe needs a rename): short range (something like 400)------>point and click---->same visual effect

can be cast on both enemies and allies for the same effect: -gives magic damage reduction (a high number) and immunity to power chord true damage for a short duration (1.5 sec maybe?) while losing the ability to auto-attack

you would ask me why both gain the same effect, because it needs this to be balanced Magical damage reduction would be balanced by the fact that an ally can't attack. Enemy not being able to hit is balanced by the fact that they have magical immunity "is magical damage reduction balanced?" we have tahm kench giving a mobile zhonya, we have braum shield why wouldn't magical damage reduction be fine? "but why is the target immune to power chord true damage?" that way Sona has more interesting combo she can W+E an ally to heal more She can E+Q to deal more damage to an enemy while removing the heal this is IMO what would make her gameplay interesting

What about her R? well i had to think about something unique again, something that enchenters don't have yet

R: Harmonic Symphony---->short range (something like 400)----> point and click---->new visual

Sona plays a protective symphony for X seconds, instantly removing the crowd control effects affecting an ally (alistar ult on allies). During the next X seconds, Sona redirects X% of the damage done to the target to the end of the symphony At the end of Harmonic Symphony, the ally is healed for the amount of healing he received during the effect by power chord (healing done before damage) If the ally and Sona end up more than 400 units away from each other, the effect ends prematurely

The idea is to allow Sona to counter CC based champions "why does she redirects damage at the end of the spell?" so her ult would be more than a QSS. But damage reduction has become generic since it's galio's thing Sona would try to compensate the damage that the target received by power chord healing

This kit is an ideal kit IMO, has counterplay, clear strength and weaknesses Sona would be picked against skarner ult or ashe ult, would be weak against gragas ult and other displacement like alistar Her new kit offers her to be a support like the others by that i mean having the power of life and death instead of invisible teamfight power, saving people with W/R, killing enemies with Q slow. She would finally have a skillfloor, while still doing enchenters things.

152 Comments

Swarovsko20 votes

Janna can peel Nami has cc Soraka can heal Karma can poke Lulu can do anything tbh Sona ???? She has the worst and corniest kit with the best theme, such a waste. I just hope the next time they rework Sona (can't wait for 2020) they won't ask Riot Fearless to take care of her again.

Leonerdo7 votes

Replace those question marks with "buffs her whole team". That's her niche.

LankPants14 votes

Her "buffs" are pathetic. Her Q amounts to a small hike in damage, just having a skill which did more damage like Nami would be more efficient. Her W is a shield, sure it's not bad, but it's better to just play Nami and heal for more. Nami's speed boost is fucking stronger than Sona's since flat MS is so much better than %. Did I mention Nami also has CC, better base stats and a near universally stronger ult?

There's never a reason to pick Sona over Nami because Sona is just a worse champion. A niche would mean they'd be a potential situation where you'd want Sona over Nami, this just isn't true.

Leonerdo6 votes

Sona is much much better in tightly-grouped teamfights. Nami can only heal 1 or 2 allies (compared to shielding all of them) and buff one, and also has much longer CDs. Also Sona's winrate stats (if you buy into those at all) are better atm, so no she's not "just a worse champion"

LankPants10 votes

In a tightly grouped teamfight Nami can R-Q multiple people. CC is the most valuable thing you can bring to a teamnfight, far more so than Sona's shitty buffs and Nami does it far better than Sona.

Clementine3 votes

Janna can peel, heal, shield, slow, and knockback Nami can give ms, stun, heal, slow, and knockup Soraka can heal, slow, and silence Karma can poke, root, shield (her entire team), and heal herself etc.

None of those champs only serve one purpose, js

Swarovsko5 votes

But they all excel at something (Soraka is a better healer, Nami is a better CC machine), while Sona doesn't.

Wyrmblade4 votes

Raka has surprisingly good poke when used right.

Swarovsko2 votes

True.

LankPants17 votes

First problem: the most annoying one, She's balanced around plat+.

This is the only thing I disagree with, Sona's not balanced around plat+, she's balanced around silver-gold range, at best. A Sona who was balanced around plat+ would be pick/ban in low silver and bronze, which is a core problem of her kit.

I think I'd also differ from you slightly in what I'd like to see done with her kit. I think the aura concept is done. Sona doesn't have auras anymore, it's pointless to hold on to the joke she has now. I'd like to see the auras go in favour of a passive you actually have to think about when you use. I've seen this idea called Invoker Sona, basically as you stack up more Qs you get more damaging effects, as you stack more Ws you get more damage impairing effects and as you stack more Es you get more movement impairing effects with powerchord looking at the last 3 spells you cast rather than 1. This would add mastery as you'd have to think about which effects would benefit you and actually weigh spell effects VS powerchord effects.

Zelorxon6 votes

People in bronze don't pick easy yet decent champions simply because they would rather eat dirt than pick something like soraka/janna/sona, not troll and get carried, much better going yasuo/riven/vayne or if you get autofilled as support pick lux/sion/syndra and go full damage not building a sightstone in order to "have more damage to carry" yet going 0/14/2 at 10 minutes making your adc lose 80 cs thanks to you and mocking him later because he's not doing much damage.

I haven't read in detail the main post but i think it would be interesting to see something that works with wavelenghts, maybe some kind of aoe skillshots (because skillshots are the snake oil to point and click toxic spells), something like a skillshot launched in a direction and a secondary effect that lingers around her during and after as an aura, pretty much like the vibration sound fades, but again, this is just an idea between a million, the possibilities are endless.

only zhule1 votes

Invoker Sona is the worst of all ideas.

Playing as Sona you have to know the effect of what 7-13 different combinations of spells do, 13 if we assume R works towards the effect). This also assumes that one doesn't get different effect depending on the order of the spells cast in other words, (QQW does something different then QWQ).

Playing against Sona you have to know all these abilities while also not always knowing what spells Sona has cast recently. Not to mention the possibility she comes out of fog of war/ returns to lane/ was hiding in a bush/ was just generally out of sight for a few seconds.

Imagine playing against a champion where their next ability may do 300 bonus damage to you... it might slow you by 60% and strip 20% of your armor & MR for 3 seconds.... hell it might even make all damage you take true damage for a few seconds. You don't know till it hits you, or maybe if you are lucky the game tells you what 3 spells she's cast (if you click on her) and you know all the possible variations of her spell weaving.

LankPants2 votes

Imagine if this wasn't 100% of Sona's kit and the effects weren't as powerful and variant as they are for Invoker?

What I've always suggested is more of a stacking system where you have 3 buffs with 3 points to distribute between them. Stacking Qs always increases capacity for damage, Es always increase the CC and Ws always increase the damage impairing effects. Coping what I posted elsewhere in this tread

Q1:+30% damage Q2: Applies effect in AOE Q3: AA ignores 60% of MR W1: 30% damage reduction W2: 40% additional damage reduction W3: Blinds and silences target E1: 40% slow E2: 20% additional slow and grounds target E3: Roots target

What this means is it's easier to know what Sona will do than Invoker. You don't have to play around her having access to a stealth, wall, summon, nuke ect. It's fairly obvious what Sona can do based off of her spell casts, which brings us to this.

You don't know till it hits you, or maybe if you are lucky the game tells you what 3 spells she's cast (if you click on her) and you know all the possible variations of her spell weaving.

I actually agree that if Sona was reworked in this way the game should tell you how she is stacking powerchord. I'd go a step further than making you click on her as well, I'd put her passive clearly under her mana bar like Annie's or Jhin's. If you see 2 purple blocks you'd know she has 2 Es stacked, if you saw 1 blue, 1 green and 1 purple you'd know she has one of each. The rightmost spell would be the oldest and get pushed if she cast another. Since Sona's effects are logical even if you don't know exactly what she does off by heart you can make an approximation based off of simple rules, if she has 3 Qs it's a lot of damage, 2 Es is a strong slow ect.

I feel like that alone would fix a lot of your issues and I certainly agree it would be needed.

HowPlayGAEM9 votes

After the travesty that was her "gameplay update" I don't think I want Riot anywhere near Sona.

I mean, the guy who did the "update" never even played Sona, and they unintentionally nerfed her Q to 500 range. Anyone who has played Sona for ~10 games would have immediately noticed the massive Q nerf, but Riot didn't fucking notice even after a few months of Sona players making threads about it.

That kind of work ethic can fuck right off.

ModCaptainMårvelous8 votes

Here's my idea that wuld NEVER fly:

Make her invoker.

QWE are each notes to a song that do something small while R is the melody itself. Bam. Suddenly Sona goes from paste-eaters anonymous to one of the most complex characters in the game. Sadly, this would never work because that would mean buzzwords like "Burden of knowledge", "Identity" and "D-cups".

Ahristocats2 votes

{quoted}

Make her invoker.

that is also an idea, but meddler said nearly 3 years ago that such a champion would bring too much burden of knowledge in league

can they really do it?

ModCaptainMårvelous9 votes

You could argue that Riot has already gone back on their promise of burden of knowledge in a lot of ways:

Jhin is a perfect example of this. There are so many aspects to his passive (Attack speed conversion, the four shots, the crit, the reload time, etc) that him existing is quite the burden to players. He's no invoker, sure, but his complexity is pretty high just by sheer statistical information.

You could also argue that as champion complexity goes up, the burden increases even if you're trying not to. I'm not saying Sona would have nine incredibly varied spells but I think the community is mature enough and knoweldgeable enough to handle Sona having 9 AoE spells with different effects.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Except that complexity isn't hard to understand from a glance.

Crit Chance and AS give AD, and AS gives Movement speed when you crit. He can only fire four shots, and has to reload after that. The amount of words in it yeah, but the complexity is alone with the player playing him, not everyone else in the game.

If you've never played Jhin EVER, but you understand what every champion does, you'd understand that Jhin gets extra AD for building Crit/AS, and that he can only fire 4 shots. It's real simple, honestly.

If we had an invoker type champion, you'd need to know each Spell the person has, what each spell does, what danger signs you need to look out for (Like wind-up animations), what's a minor spell and whats Major, how each spell affects enemies/allies, and a lot of infomation.

and if we've had problems with dual form champions, god forbid what would happen with 9 spells

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

See, your problem is that you're analyzing this from the perspective of someone who has played league for ages. For us, yeah, it's easy.

You have to take a step back and put yourself in the shoes of the new guy who just picked up the game. He picks up Jhin after his first few ADCs have been Ashe and Jinx...and suddenly he's got four auto-attacks, weird AS/Crit interactions and someone who genuinely doesn't play like anyone else in the cast. Thinking on this, do you assume that the new guy would be able to handle Jhin? Do you think he'd easily understand Jhin after a single game? Probably not.

The argument has never been about "Is this too hard for your normal league player?", it's always been about the new guy. The scrub. The person who downloaded league last night. HE is the guy you have to worry about.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

What person chooses a Champion without even looking at their kit would be my question. They have those videos in the Champion Store for a reason (or at least on the Legacy Client). People who go into a game blind are going to have a problem with any champion, be it Ashe or Jinx.

But like said, it's rather easy to simplify the passive into something new players understand as well. I'll explain each part of his passive in a single simple sentence.

  • Building Crit Chance and Attack Speed will give Jhin more AD.

  • Jhin's attack speed does not increase when buying Attack Speed.

  • Auto's that Crit boost Jhin's Movement speed and buying more Attack Speed strengthens the boost.

  • Jhin can only fire 4 times before reloading, but his 4th shot is a Garen-teed Critical Strike and does %missing Health damage.

  • Crits do 25% less damage.

The only difference between this and his actual Passive Text, is that there is a lot of details and numbers thrown in as well, that clutter and confuse a rather simple definition. Doing A will do B. C does not happen. When D happens gain X. These are all simple in nature, and anyone with reading comprehension will do fine in recognizing what the basics mean, and gain a thorough comprehension of it by becoming experienced.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

It's actually fairly common knowledge that there are a large amount of people invested in champions from aspects other than kit. If you've seen Ghostcrawler's talk at GDC about balancing league, he does mention that Jinx is one of the most frequently played ADCs despite not being particularly good.

And while you're right about the passive having fairly simple stuff at a glance, you're forgetting some of the other, more complex things: If Jhin loses attack speed, does that reduce his damage? Is there any way to speed up my attack speed? Do attack speed boosts affect me differently? Can I increase my reload speed? Blah blah blah blah etc.

One of the most complex parts about DOTA is understanding the ins-and-outs in scenarios that are unique to your hero. Does this pierce BKB? Does BKB remove it? Will height affect this skill? What can I affect? etc. Those tiny factors all lead up to an overall more complex scenario, even if a lot of those answers can be summed up as "Yes" or "no".

Remember: For a new player, it's not how different things are but how much stuff you have to learn. And Jhin, comparative to others, would be a lot.

LankPants1 votes

If we had an invoker type champion, you'd need to know each Spell the person has, what each spell does, what danger signs you need to look out for (Like wind-up animations), what's a minor spell and whats Major, how each spell affects enemies/allies, and a lot of infomation.

Not necessarily. There's ways to implement an Invoker style system that are far simpler than in DotA.

Invoker is hard to learn because he literally has 9 completely different spells, you change 1 spell and it's the difference between casting a summon or a wall. I don't think anybody would be suggesting this sort of extreme variance for Sona, if they are I think they're overshooting what would be potentially good about an Invoker style for Sona.

What I think most people mean when they talk about "Invoker Sona" and certainly what I mean is a more logical method of stacking together Sona's last spell casts into the effect of powerchord. The structure would be largely the same as it is now, if you add a Q you increase damage, W to add damage impairing effects and E for movement impairing effects. Just to copy something I posted elsewhere in this thread you could do something like

Q1:+30% damage Q2: Applies effect in AOE Q3: AA ignores 60% of MR W1: 30% damage reduction W2: 40% additional damage reduction W3: Blinds and silences target E1: 40% slow E2: 20% additional slow and grounds target E3: Roots target

So what would this mean in practice? For a new player it's easy enough to memorise the basic rules, you use a Q heavy chord for damage or an E heavy chord for CC. For a more experienced player it adds depth into the choice of what chord you use, for example VS a diving assassin you could cast E2, W1 to stop them escaping while reducing their damage output, or you could just cast W3 to ensure they can't kill but not hinder their escape at all. You can use Q2, E1 in a gank to slow 2 people with the AOE, Q3 to try to burst someone or E3 to root a single target. Experienced players would understand a system like this and be able to make better choices on chords but an inexperienced player could still work with them since they're less obtuse than Invoker's spells.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

The problem lies more with the players facing against. You'd have to make each particle effect different so that they'd know what version of spell is coming at them. By making each one different, you now need to memorize 9 different spells, all their effects, what they look like, and how to avoid them.

It becomes extremely complicated, and looks even more intimidating for the player learning or fighting against, and that concept alone eats up alot of power budget, since I'm not sure if Sona would have her normal abilities stacked over this concept.

LankPants2 votes

The problem lies more with the players facing against. You'd have to make each particle effect different so that they'd know what version of spell is coming at them. By making each one different, you now need to memorize 9 different spells, all their effects, what they look like, and how to avoid them.

There's a simpler solution to this than particles. Give Sona a Jhin style visualisation under her mana bar showing exactly what she's stacked up. It's easy to look at Sona and say "she's got 2 green blocks and a blue block, so she's going to reduce my damage heavily and do some extra damage". I'd also just take the colour of the the particle from the most stacked spell and maybe add a white particle for an evenly stacked chord.

It becomes extremely complicated, and looks even more intimidating for the player learning or fighting against

Sona needs both of these things. Currently she's a complete non-issue to play against because her kit just does so little and she has a nonexistent mastery curve.

and that concept alone eats up alot of power budget, since I'm not sure if Sona would have her normal abilities stacked over this concept.

There's a few ways to fix this. Firstly, give Sona the same power budget as other champs rather than two thirds as she has now and secondly ditch the "auras" on her Q and W and the CD bonus on R.

I'd probably look to do a moderate rework to her base abilities if I was going to do this anyway, maybe something like letting her cast 3 abilities in quick succession before all of her spells go on a long CD early scaling down to a medium CD later as well as pulling the effects of her abilities into line so they're more even rather than W>Q>>>>E. You could easily work out most of the kit balance issues while doing this.

agbudar6 votes

her visual is fine she needs a kit rework plain and simple

all three of her basic abilities all she needs to do is be in range thats it she has no skill shots besides her ult which is pretty much point blank.

her ult is probably the only thing you could keep. her passive somewhat maybe with a few changes.

but her basic QWE need to be fundamentally changed in order for her to be done right.

zero3566 votes

Ok, first holy uncanny valley with that picture

Also, no skillshots does not equal braindead just as skillshots do not equal skill. They are all related, but you can have skill with minimal skillshots (see AurelionSol with his stars)

Point 1: I can't really say much about the plat+ balance. At the moment, knowing how to play and play against her is, in my opinion, literally the point. You don't outplay opponents. You win because you put yourself in a position to win.

Point 2: That's just like, your opinion man. I personally love playing Sona, and not just the pop. I love the clutch flash heals. Looking at the year in recap Rito did a while ago, I actually used E the most. You don't outplay opponents. You win because you put yourself in a position to win. E helps me do that, even if it is piss poor weak early on.

Point 3: Again, I have fun and not just in bursting people. My last few games don't show it, but my favorite build on Sona is actually full tank. Hows that for people playing a champion different than others? Also, you talk about "players want to feel different from players that play the same champion" then list Darius and Janna. Not really a point against the argument, but a point in general like clearly your train of thought was a bit off here.

Last, the rework One, a chord is three notes, so it fits that it would be three. Sorry Jhin. Two, KEEP THE ULT. Seriously, I'm fairly open minded, but for this, no, just no Third, I like the idea of abilities affecting allies and enemies similarly. It's music, which is everywhere and should affect everyone the same. BUT, I don'd think the way you did it would work very well. Of course, I had a lot thoughts running through my head from the first part, so maybe I just need to think on it a bit more.

EDIT: Looking at the rework with a clear head. I'm iffy about it. I like the ideas, and they could work with some refinement. But it doesn't feel like music or Sona anymore. As a separate champion, it's fine. But not Sona. This isn't Sona.

Further, shameless self-promotion, here are my ideas for a potential full-scale Sona rework https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/JqtuhBZT-sona-rework-idea http://zero356.deviantart.com/journal/Sona-Rework-Idea-652052834 (yes, deviant art, I didn't have a good other place to put it)

Also, I suppose this is relevant https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/k16fNgVV-main-pride-post-talk-about-your-main?comment=0008

Looknook3 votes

Your comment about a chord being three notes got me thinking. What if her ult was changed to a passive that let her play multiple notes/abilities at the same time. And how you combined the abilities changed their effect. So Q would do X W would do Y But QW would do something different And QWE would do something else

The only problem with these is that Sona would end up with 7 different abilities with her Chord being all 3 at the same time. I also have no idea what the abilities would be/how they would combine.

zero3563 votes

Have you played DOTA? Have your heard of Invoker? Did you read my rework idea? Because just look at and compare some of those things with what you just said and be amazed.

Moreover, Riot has already said they don't want an Invoker champ in the game. This, while a good idea, is literally too complex for any champion let alone Sona, who they want to keep simple. As such, the idea has to be toned way down to work.

Looknook2 votes

I read your stuff but it was about previously played abilities, I was talking more about actively using multiple abilities at the same time. Like I would press Q and W together. Not Q then W.

But no I have never played Dota and don't know how Invoker as actually works.

zero3565 votes

From the DOTA wiki

"Invoker is a ranged intelligence hero who is very difficult to master. He is unique in that he possesses a total of 14 abilities in his arsenal; three of them - Quas, Wex, and Exort - are reagents and one is his special ultimate Invoke. The three abilities he learns throughout leveling up can have three instances, which serve as the basic ingredients or components for him to create a new ability using his ultimate. Once the reagents or elements are combined, he can invoke one out of ten different abilities."

Though what you're saying is interesting and slightly different. Imma have to look into this a bit

Looknook2 votes

Okay, yeah Invoker sounds really complicated. Personally I would find it difficult to remember the order I was playing spells in as Sona and how my next spell would effect the spell after that. Of course Sona could change colors or something to help indicate this to both the player and others around Sona. Also practice would help.

While my idea is by no means well thought out, here is the thought process I had. Instruments often times have multiple notes played on them at the same time. So Sona could play a song by playing multiple notes at the same time, building up to a Chord when all there can be played together.

Before level 6 she would have access only to abilities Q,W,E. No combining.

At level 6 she can level up her ult which would allow her to combine two spells. But her ult is a passive and does nothing, no active.

At level 11 she can put her second and last point into her ult (same as Ryze). This then allows her to use QWE for her "Power Chord". Abilities would be balanced around every ability used in a combination going on cooldown. This would mean to combining abilities can create more powerful abilities but also more openings when Sona can't do anything. Probably would also use a similar if not greater amount of mana.

Now what these abilities could be or combine to be I have no clue. Maybe its too complex of an idea to try and come up with music themed abilities that can be combined that many ways and make logical sense. However; this is what my idea boiled down to.

only zhule2 votes

{quoted}

Okay, yeah Invoker sounds really complicated. Personally I would find it difficult to remember the order I was playing spells in as Sona and how my next spell would effect the spell after that. Of course Sona could change colors or something to help indicate this to both the player and others around Sona. Also practice would help.

While my idea is by no means well thought out, here is the thought process I had. Instruments often times have multiple notes played on them at the same time. So Sona could play a song by playing multiple notes at the same time, building up to a Chord when all there can be played together.

Before level 6 she would have access only to abilities Q,W,E. No combining.

At level 6 she can level up her ult which would allow her to combine two spells. But her ult is a passive and does nothing, no active.

At level 11 she can put her second and last point into her ult (same as Ryze). This then allows her to use QWE for her "Power Chord". Abilities would be balanced around every ability used in a combination going on cooldown. This would mean to combining abilities can create more powerful abilities but also more openings when Sona can't do anything. Probably would also use a similar if not greater amount of mana.

Now what these abilities could be or combine to be I have no clue. Maybe its too complex of an idea to try and come up with music themed abilities that can be combined that many ways and make logical sense. However; this is what my idea boiled down to.

The issue with multi notes is that you can get a lot of "oops" moments on the client side. Image for a moment that you are SURE you cast QW but the game registers it as only Q or W, you are now dead and angry because the you didn't get the effect you are positive you were suppose to.

Looknook2 votes

That's a really good point. It could easily become quite frustrating especially with high ping.

Thilmer6 votes

There is little diference between a good Sona and an excellent Sona, because her kit doesn't really allow a player to show skill. You only notice an excellent Sona for her positioning and timing.

Her base numbers are garbage, her ratios are a joke, she is the only enchanter support without a proper CC, and her rework was disapointing. When she is weak, she is almost unplayable. When she is strong, everybody plays her and she gets a 58% winrate. Sona is anything except well balanced. And it's a pity, because she has awesome artistic design and awesome skins.

P.S. I forgot to mention that Riot made her auras disappear because "we don't like auras". Is that supposed to be an argument?

Quindec5 votes

i kind of just want sona to have a passive on each of her qwe and the passive would be that they play a music buffing allies slightly. Think of it like a toggle/active. q being the same but buffs damage of allies, w the same but the aura is health regen and e slight movement speed buff to allies nearby. ult is the same. If they were to implement different music in every skill qwe they have to do this with dj sona as well.

Miku Hime sama3 votes

So basically, you want her reverted to her old pre-patch 4.13 kit.

I mean, I agree with you. I'm just clarifying this since it sounds like you don't know what she used to look like.

Quindec6 votes

I actually didn't know her old kit was the one I just described but yeah I think auras would be a better buff to her kit

HzVee5 votes

I just played Sona again after a while and I agree with your 2nd point. I just flamed by my dead adc for not healing and peeling in the early game while all my spells were on cooldown. Were my damage and heals that invisible?? xD

I don't know how to balance or create a good concept, but I'd like to see Sona's ability looks like echoing from primary targets around her and hit secondary targets in a radius from the primary target. Something like healing for 100 HP for allies within 600 range around her and heal for 50 HP for allies within 300 range around the primary targets (or damaging enemies).

Miku Hime sama4 votes

Yes, her damage and heals really are that invisible. She literally has the lowest base damage of supports in the game, her lone spell is the only 40-base damage amongst all support kits. Her healing is literally the weakest in the game. Every other heal is stronger than hers, even Nidalee's.

People haven't been talking out of their asses all this time, there's a reason we've been saying she's shit for nearly 3 years now. Because it's a FACT.

Thilmer5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc792Nbi,comment-id=00190000,timestamp=2017-03-27T12:34:16.723+0000)

Yes, her damage and heals really are that invisible. She literally has the lowest base damage of supports in the game, her lone spell is the only 40-base damage amongst all support kits. Her healing is literally the weakest in the game. Every other heal is stronger than hers, even Nidalee's.

This gets on my nerves so much. Why a champion that is not even a support has such a good healing?

AWildAPKalista4 votes

Because once upon a time, Nidalee was a rather common support champ. Spam spears, lay a few traps, heal the ADC. Heck, her heal even has an AS steroid added to it, that's not all that different the way Lulu and Janna's shields increase damage too. In fact, almost ALL heals and shields have secondary effects to them, Aria is one of the only 2 or 3 in the entire game that arguably don't. At the time, Nidalee was far more support-esque in that she actually empowered the ADC, in comparison to the Brands and Malzahars we have now that are little more than damage bots.

One day, Rito decided they didn't want her to be just a spear-spammer and moved a ton of her damage off her spears and into her form change. Since then, she's had so many iterations and gone back and forth between so many different roles, I can't keep track of them all. I don't even know where she's supposed to be played atm.

ZT Xperimentor4 votes

Her auras (before her rework) were never invisible; if people clicked on the enemy they could see which buff she was giving them, and the values were flat back then. Only her immediate usage of abilities benefited from any ratios, which were still low.

AWildAPKalista4 votes

This is all true to a T. Let's also not forget how Fearless repeatedly stated that his main focus for "improving visibility" was just making her spells flashier and more OPTICALLY visible. He openly stated that the actual rework was a literal afterthought and he didn't care whether they were refined by the time those visuals were complete. He threw them onto Live regardless of what they were like. He even intentionally hid the changes and numbers from both the patch notes AND the champ update page. Even Sona's champion page on the official Rito site was intentionally left a complete mess for years after. Not for lack of players demanding they fix it. They added the Jhin death animation and video to her page before they actually fixed the fucking numbers on the page itself. They created a damned video, but they couldn't be bothered to update simple fucking text:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bug-report/ctbNtZaf-champion-page-discrepencies-v2

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bug-report/8EWkbuJE-so-rito-took-the-effort-of-updating-sonas-champion-page-for-jin

If Fearless had left Sona alone LIKE HE SHOULD HAVE and updated just her visuals, we wouldn't be here discussing how the entire project was a massive failure. Fuck man, it wasn't even Feareless' biggest failure, that would be the jungle rework which he specifically abandoned Sona to work on. I don't even understand how Fearless still has a job, he's literally had at least 5 really big failures in a row that I can name off-hand. He should've been fired after patch 4.13 and the Sona dumpstering reverted, but Rito is too afraid to admit failure. They're too afraid to admit it was a mistake to hire Fearless and a mistake not to fire him A LOT SOONER.

BallroomDuck2 votes

As a Sona main (well more likely to be a one-trick), I am willing to answer your questions.

First I agree that Sona needs a skill rework since she is an old style champion. However, I would not agree with the rest of your opinions. Please remember I am here to answer questions using my second language so please be tolerant with grammar or dictation errors :)

I will make this clear in the first place. Everyone has a different understanding of League and you all win the game in your own different ways. Therefore I will not discuss certain ways or examples of how I play Sona, I will just tell facts about her.

  • Problem 1: She is a balanced champion. She has the ability to do couple things while other supports cannot. I will mention this later with problem 2 later. Remember, Supports' gameplay is NOT tied with the power of life and death ONLY.

It takes a deeper understanding of the game to master Sona (ironic right? She seems to be a super easy champion with a simple kit. but the truth is exactly the opposite). That's the reason why I love Sona, she requires a different understanding to master, and her kit is designed for her unique functionalities. Therefore, you need to play Sona in a different way (by the word different I mean I peel for my adc and support my team differently, not toxically playing a mage in support role). In fact, though old-fashioned, Sona's kit is well designed (not as good as Camille or other iconic champions like Lee Sin, but it is above average).

Until now I do not know how to play a mid Sona, but I noticed there ARE Sonas carrying the entire game as a mid laner in high Elo (Diamond 1). I do not comprehend Sona that good so I can only play her as a support. Maybe she does not know how to properly play a support Sona but I do. You cannot master Sona, therefore, you think Sona is a trash champion. However, there are tons of players carrying games as Sona. They know how to use her strength and avoid her weaknesses but you do not. She is actually a unique and strong support (or mage).

  • Problem 2: Again, Supports' gameplay is NOT tied with the power of life and death ONLY. I protect my adc very well laning and I do very well supporting and peeling for my team in team fights. You need to change your way of playing while picking different champions. No doubt you play differently as a support Brand and Lulu, so is Sona. Her kit requires you to use her differently to support your own team and adc. If she really is useless and does nothing in games, why does she still have a high win rate and pick rate?

As for "negative game experience", it is not necessarily true. Imagine you get camped by mid and jg 4 times in 12 mins, you feel unpleasant as well. It is just a different way to play this game, you think playing as or against her is not pleasant because you do not know how to counter Sona. There are situations that Sona can absolutely do NOTHING in games, you just need to lead the game into that situation instead of complaining here.

  • Problem 3: There are people playing Sona other than us. Some people might think she is very easy so they think it would be easy to master her with little practice. Therefore, there is a lot of "inexperienced" Sonas, usually, it is when people get autofilled and they pick her. Other than that, some of us might refuse to pick her because of her old-fashioned kit. However, ther are differences in skilled and inexperienced Sonas. I used to outplay a Riven as a support Sona in a ranked game. She is not behind and I was not snowballed.

All in all, you need to understand this champion deeper. She is a balanced and not-so-poorly designed champion.

AND PLEASE REVERT HER GODDAMN Q TO 200 BASE DMG!

Ahristocats5 votes

{quoted}

  • Problem 1: She is a balanced champion.

She's impossible to play in higher tiers, and i'm not the only one who's going to tell you this. You can ask a lot of Sona mains sitting in d1/master and unless they play her mid (AWildAPSona) they're going to say the same thing Best dota 2 Sona was a Sona main sitting in master on NA and he ragequitted league because of what happened to her

{quoted}

she requires a different understanding to master,

that's the first time i hear this, if you can tell me what you need to master i'm all eager to listen

{quoted}

and her kit is designed for her unique functionalities.

where do you see unique functionalities? all i see is auras this is the only unique thing she has which does not give any fun or interesting mechanics at all, this is purely subjective but if you take non-sona mains support players and ask them if they prefer a kit with interesting and unique power tied with limts, OR simple auras empowering allies where you don't even see the power you're giving? tell me why a player would choose the 2nd one, not seeing the impact you have is very sad and i can only rely on other poeple to realise it

{quoted}

. She is actually a unique and strong support (or mage).

do you know what a support should bring to his team? CC before lvl 6, lane pressure, something that makes his/her team feeling that they're 5v5 and ot 4v5 Sona's power during laning phase is inextitent OR NEGATIVE when it comes to high elo just because of what i described above, she's either a walking 300 gold bounty, or plays safe and doesn't bring anything to the adc during laning phase She also can't roam because of her 325 base ms and song of celerity low ms in early game

So why would you pick Sona especially if she can't help you during a gank? she can't save you from ganks and she can't help a jungler to kill an adc except if she takes E at lvl 3 and apply power chord

{quoted}

I protect my adc very well laning

that's new to me again

{quoted}

why does she still have a high win rate and pick rate?

because no one knows how to play against sona until at least d1, there is a reason she's never picked in lcs while she's a generic enchenters that has everything in her kit to enlighten you there isn't a single master tier sona main in EUW, i don't know about NA but there are only 2 in korea even Urgot and Eve are better while they're being reworked

{quoted}

As for "negative game experience", it is not necessarily true. Imagine you get camped by mid and jg 4 times in 12 mins, you feel unpleasant as well. It is just a different way to play this game, you think playing as or against her is not pleasant because you do not know how to counter Sona. There are situations that Sona can absolutely do NOTHING in games, you just need to lead the game into that situation instead of complaining here.

you could do this against old GP too, but he got reworked why? because those kits take too much knowledge to counter, you can't know how to play against them unless a sona main tells you how to do it. When you look at gangplank it's obvious that you counter him by destroying barrels, same with sion you know that you have to dodge ult/stop his Q/destroy hi shield With sona it's the total opposite which is why EVEN NOW you still have people complaining about Sona

{quoted}

  • Problem 3: However, ther are differences in skilled and inexperienced Sonas. I used to outplay a Riven as a support Sona in a ranked game. She is not behind and I was not snowballed.

thank you for enlightening me except you didn't enlighten me, you said something without even explaining why you think there are differences in skilled and inexperienced Sona players

{quoted}

All in all, you need to understand this champion deeper. She is a balanced and not-so-poorly designed champion.

same here

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

I'm tired, and I'm mainly commenting to bookmark this thread for a read tomorrow, but mainly, I got one question I want to ask.

Sona is, for the most part, a support. Yet, unlike the traditional style of supports (Janna, Lulu, Soraka, Nami), Sona's current state is more towards, builds lotsa AP instead of the common support items (Feel free to correct if wrong). Question being, does an Ideal Sona, let's call it the Sona Magnum (Heh heh), need to do damage to function as Sona? If she didn't do damage, would Sona Magnum still be Sona, but go more Support styled focused around being a general woop-de-doo save yo ass support.

Ahristocats5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc792Nbi,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2017-03-27T07:46:31.410+0000)

Question being, does an Ideal Sona, let's call it the Sona Magnum (Heh heh), need to do damage to function as Sona?

as much damage as any supports if you play supports you will realise that they have the ability to take down a target sitting at 30 or 35% hp (except janna) all of them, thresh alistar braum bard nami lulu ect..

Miku Hime sama6 votes

You missed a few points. First, Sona isn't building "AP" so much as artificial numbers, that just happen to also give AP, which scales even further into their own artificial scalings. Sona's own scalings are garbage, she can't go Morello, Deathcap, whatever; she has to specifically buy Spellblade and Echo. The reason Sona has to buy artificial numbers is because she has the lowest bases and scalings of the support class, but this is only half the story. Second, Sona has a severe lack of utility, it's almost nonexistent. Between Aria potentially being the worst spell in the entire game, Celerity being a crappy 1-point MS spell with no other value outside of proccing Tempo, in addition to Sona being the shortest-range support in the game and having a COMPLETE lack of pre-6 hard CC. Sona literally does not have a kit, all of her numbers are bottom of the barrel. Thus, she buys an artificial kit to make up for her lack of a kit herself.

Now although Sona has the lowest damage potential of any support in the entire game, does she need damage to function? No, of course not. You could for example give her obnoxiously obscene CC: Blitz, Thresh, Leona; you could give her obscene heals, shields or split it in between: Soraka, Janna; or obscene mobility: Lulu. Of course, every support has at least 2 if not all 3 of these utilities and yet all of them still have higher damage potential than Sona. Sona doesn't have utility, she doesn't have damage. Hell, even her ult has been gutted into the ground with its range being nerfed and its width being cut in half. Stuns aren't even a strong form of CC nowadays in the face of knock-ups, stasis', suppressions or even altering the damned terrain itself.

only zhule1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rc792Nbi,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2017-03-27T07:46:31.410+0000)

I'm tired, and I'm mainly commenting to bookmark this thread for a read tomorrow, but mainly, I got one question I want to ask.

Sona is, for the most part, a support. Yet, unlike the traditional style of supports (Janna, Lulu, Soraka, Nami), Sona's current state is more towards, builds lotsa AP instead of the common support items (Feel free to correct if wrong). Question being, does an Ideal Sona, let's call it the Sona Magnum (Heh heh), need to do damage to function as Sona? If she didn't do damage, would Sona Magnum still be Sona, but go more Support styled focused around being a general woop-de-doo save yo ass support.

Oddly enough i would argue that Sona can still be Sona with out damage. That said many of the tradtional support items, aren't as impressive on Sona due to the way her kit works. Lacking a base level hard CC, or other fight starting ability, most of Sona's power/use comes from using her abilities often instead of landing 1-2 rarely that have huge impact. Then we get to the other issue, that her base numbers aren't all that impressive on any of her abilities. So to "fix" this most players build a lot of AP ( half decent scaling does wonders when you can cast the spell 6-8 times a minute). So now you have a Sona with a bunch of AP for better use of her support abilities... Well if you are going to be rocking 300+ AP, why not get a item 3100 .

So to answer the question, No sona does not have to do damage but you will often end up in a spot where picking up an offensive item and doing a lot of damage makes more sense then picking up a 3rd or 4th support item.

Miku Hime sama2 votes

I mean, if Sona had a usable kit that actually worked without damage or stacking AP, she wouldn't need or even have anymore reason to build Lich Bane anymore. You know as well as I that the item is a crutch for her own personal lack of utility and damage.

Another point that has been repeatedly stated, why does utility have to scale AP in the first place? We could just as well create a brand new stat, call it "Enchantment" for all I care. Any champion meant to function as a support would scale enchantment on their utility and they can still scale AP on their damage to not eliminate solo-lane options like for Karma, Morgana or whoever. Change the AP on all support items into enchantment.

This solves several problems, it reduces the abuse of APCs in bot lane that get free stats from the spellthief line. It removes the possibility of solo-laners buying support items and abusing them, which a fraction of players are afraid could happen if they give too much AP. It deters enchanters being played as supports from buying AP as it'll no longer scale into their utility or will scale REALLY poorly with it. After all, we don't need to remove the AP scaling ENTIRELY; perhaps mid-lane Lulu might enjoy a 10% AP scaling on her shield a lot more than 0%, but it still wouldn't be ideal over enchantment.

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