This game falls apart in terms of snowballing and balance every jungle update.

Hibeki··20 votes·1,760 views

You said yourself LONG in the past before teambuilder was made and even spirit stone was a thing that you DIDN'T want to establish a set meta by making items, roles, and controlling the way the game is played.

And now, well, you have.

Every time you update the jungle, you set more meta's, and you completely unbalance how the game was played.

Before with Feral Flare and Spirit Stone, whichever jungler got them first had more gold and damage than the laners and this hugely upset the balance of the game by creating a snowball.

Now you are creating an even BIGGER snowball with the ridiculously overpowered jungle items and making the dragon and baron buffs ridiculously strong.

Baron was a game changer before, now you can end the game with it.

Good luck ever killing those minions, holy shit their strong. You essentially get super minions without the inhib, and never mind when you DO have super minions.

Dragon gives MASSIVE damage boost and pushing on the FIRST TWO kills on it. Pressure on bot lane from their junglers is at it's peak, because whoever gets the first dragon can snowball SO INCREDIBLY HARD with that 8% damage boost.

It turns into more kills, then more dragons, then more towers, then baron, then ending the game.

Riot you messing with the meta (Despite saying you wouldn't) really upsets the balance of the game.

24 Comments

disregardable5 votes

whoever gets the first dragon can snowball SO INCREDIBLY HARD with that 8% damage boost

Let's assume they get first drag at level 8, shall we?

MissFortune : 67 base AD+ 25 AD from Pickaxe+7 from doran's blade=99 AD at level 8

Let's assume you're running the standard 21/9/0 masteries for her, giving you +6 for 105, plus 4.5% increased damage=109 plus 2% bonus damage of 2, giving you 111 for a standard auto attack without your w.

Now times 8%, that's +8 AD. Less than a long sword, more than a Doran's. Not exactly game changing.

Hibeki7 votes

it's 8% on your entire teams damage, and not just their auto attacks.

This also scales into late game

disregardable3 votes

Yes, it does scale well, but that's not the argument here. The argument here is that it creates snowballing, which it clearly doesn't. It's a long term investment.

kurufal3 votes

How does one person, yet alone the entire team, who is ahead receives an 8% increase AT ANY POINT IN THE GAME not create snowballing?

NeoScout1 votes

it adds up with all 5 members having the buff + it just gets worse for the losing team because it's a percentage

ProfDrDeath3 votes

Contra:

Let's say, all lanes are more or less even with their counterparts. Your jungler manages to get a dragon. What happens?

Before, you got 190 gold, which isn't really much ON A PERSONAL SCALE. Of course, it would get your team ahead, but doesn't instantly effect everything in the game. Especially since the extra gold requires backing before having any impact AT ALL.

Now, you instantly get a boost in AD and AP, without needing any further action on your part - no backing involved. You can attack your opponent the moment you get the buff and have a good advantage in offensive power.

disregardable2 votes

Yes, because that extra 10 damage will make all the difference. Seriously, if you're capable of winning the trade with first dragon that early, you are capable of winning the trade without it. It just takes confidence.

Narasimha1 votes

Before, you got 190 gold, which isn't really much ON A PERSONAL SCALE. Of course, it would get your team ahead, but doesn't instantly effect everything in the game.

...What? 180 gold is a lot more variable. You can spend it towards anything. It has a lot more value than 8 AD/AP.

OJ1913 votes

whoever gets the first dragon can snowball SO INCREDIBLY HARD with that 8% damage boost

Let's assume they get first drag at level 8, shall we?

MissFortune : 67 base AD+ 25 AD from Pickaxe+7 from doran's blade=99 AD at level 8

Let's assume you're running the standard 21/9/0 masteries for her, giving you +6 for 105, plus 4.5% increased damage=109 plus 2% bonus damage of 2, giving you 111 for a standard auto attack without your w.

Now times 8%, that's +8 AD. Less than a long sword, more than a Doran's. Not exactly game changing.

err just saying, 8 ad is 4/5 of a long sword or 288 gold worth

old dragon was worth only 180 gold

and 8% AP is just as good, hell if you get the tier 5 buff that doubles them all that's more than half a deathcap of %AP

Junkο2 votes

+8 AD, now if you attack 10 times you deal 80 more damage. 80 more damage is HUGE early game.

Also here is this bit i posted in another thread: It isn't an additional 8 damage. Katarina has 250% AP and 375% AD ratios on ult. That means her ult damage increases by 50% from ratios alone. That's actually pretty huge.

Hot Toddy1 votes

THAT'S ONE CHAMP

PLEASE STOP USING HER IF IT BOTHERS YOU

I HAVEN'T SEEN A KAT IN DAYS

Junkο1 votes

Who said i'm using her? But if Kat is on enemy team and they cheese first drag with a champ that can solo it like Panth then it's not fair that she deals more than 50% more dmg.

Auryiel1 votes

Your math is so bad it hurts.

  1. Kat almost never has bonus AD, which is what her ult scales off, not TOTAL AD.
  2. You completely fail to take into account the base damage
  3. You also assume Kat gets a full ulti

In a more realistic situation, Kat with a rank 1 ulti and 100 AP gets the first drag bonus. She's level 7 so she has 74 base AD. She now has 108 AP and 6 bonus AD. Her ulti now deals 670 magic damage over 2.5 seconds, instead of 625 over 2.5 seconds. Meaning it deals roughly 7% more total damage. That's pretty far off fro your 50% more damage. Manipulating the numbers (and poorly at that) to strengthen your argument just makes you look bad.

Lord Dusteon3 votes

Also, the entire point was for baron to help end games.

Crowley7233 votes

It's still pre season so people are still figuring out the new strategies needed. Your point on the jungler having more gold than laners, this is the exact opposite now. As a jungler, I've been doing a lot of WW, Pantheon and Yi. I can farm jungle all day long and I won't have as much gold as a laner. The increase on spawn time on camps made it harder to get gold and made it more beneficial to gank lanes, exert control over enemy jungle and dragon.

The dragon buff isn't huge at the beginning of the game, but it will mean something near the end of the game. There are certain champions that will take this investment and start putting it to use early game AKA Pantheon. I tend to get dragon at level 3 / 4, so by the 10 min mark dragon is taken. I can solo it easy and the best part is I ward the enemy jungle and they don't even come near the dragon pit to ward it, or even take the crab to grant that vision.

The changes to jungle def changed the game meta since dragon control is a must from the very beginning of the game. It's not something to simply take for some gold, but it is an investment that can be measured as more important than a tower or to sacrifice a tower to get a dragon. For example, by the time I take Baron if I was successful with my dragon control I would have 4 dragons under my belt. I take baron and then if we can get the 5th dragon as well. My team gets a huge buff, but the window for the buff to be very beneficial is small. I must have had 4 dragons already taken, any buffs on my team to be doubled(preferably baron) and lanes pushed to further take advantage of it all.

The best games I've played personally have been the games that dragon has been contested every time. There was constant vision and sweeping and epic dragon steals from the very beginning. I wasn't allowed an early dragon since it was ALWAYS warded, when it was up. Bot lane, you need to ward tri bush and river to prevent from getting ganked. Well, now you NEED to ward dragon to prevent those early dragon kill champions from taking it. The game has evolved the jungle from a simple utility to give your top lane extra exp / gold from a solo lane and give you freedom to do the same with the mobs, to making the jungle have a distinct impact on the rest of your team. With the smite camp buffs, I can use them offensively and defensively to help my laners out. I.E smite my wraith camp to sweep any wards in the river area to prevent vision and give the lane a better gankability for myself. Smite wolf camp and I get a ward in our jungle to prevent successful counter jungling and also to help keep the roaming to a minimum if that lane side is pushed to base as well. I can smite frog or golems to make myself a more successful gank. smite golems, walk into lane and have my first attack be a stun, they use escape, and then i use my gap closer since the golem camp gave me a stun.

All in all, the jungle has changed the meta, but this game is a strategy game, the path to victory changes all the time, you just need to accept you may need to actually think about how things are done in game now.

Renaille2 votes

Dragon gives MASSIVE damage boost

This is an overstatement. The boost is very significant for AD based champs and ap champs with high ratios, but someone like Karthus wont get more than a 3% dps boost.

Hibeki2 votes

Uh karthus has a very big AP ratio, his Q is .6 and spammable

Junkο1 votes

Katarina has 250% AP and 375% AD ratios on ult. That means her ult damage increases by 50% from ratios alone. That's actually pretty huge.

Alëk1 votes

Katarina has 250% AP and 375% AD ratios on ult. That means her ult damage increases by 50% from ratios alone. That's actually pretty huge.

u didn't have to post it twice...

Hot Toddy1 votes

I HAVE SEEN THIS COMMENT SPAMMED SOOO MUCH! THIS IS ONE CHAMP IF SHE IS A PROBLEM JUST BAN HER

Junkο1 votes

you shouldn't have to ban a champ because of a neutral monster

Leti the Yeti1 votes

on one hand... we need some more excitement in the first 10~20 minutes of the game it can be kinda dull

on the other hand, snowballs tend to happen

Hawkefire1 votes

The dragon buffs are a bit too strong too early, I have no issue with the buffs themselves if they made it take a bit more effort for them to come into effect. (perhaps doubling the number to get the buff would be enough to fix it, as in, you need to kill the dragon 2 times for the first buff, 2 more times for the second, and so on and so forth, with the final buff only taking 1 dragon kill because of the way it works). This gives the other team a bit of breathing room so that losing the first dragon isn't so crippling.

WooBeeWoo1 votes

Yeah Riot has decided that they will create the meta now. And that meta is AD prominent with ranged adcs dominating EVERYTHING about the game. Immobile mages and full tanks don't get to be in their game anymore.

More from Gameplay

More by Hibeki