Nerfing Sejuani is not a good move. Buff the other tank junglers instead

DropFill·Mar 17, 2015·39 votes·2,993 views

Like seriously, she seems play for like a week and is going to be nerfed already?

Here are the changes : Sejuani Flail of the Northern Winds (W) [Need to look into this one to confirm - I believe the bonus magic damage might now be 4%/5.5%/7%/8.5%/10% of max health from 4/6/8/10/12%] Permafrost (E) base damage increased to 60/95/130/165/200 from 60/90/120/150/180 Glacial Prison (R ) slow lowered to 30% at all ranks from 90%

82 Comments

Pucking PurrfectMar 17, 201524 votes

According to cry babies any champ who has more than 50% win rate is ban worthy and should be nerfed to death. Stronk logic.

shalecMar 17, 201514 votes

There's a fine line between a 58% win rate and "more than 50% win rate".

Pucking PurrfectMar 17, 20157 votes

Please stop crying, thanks.

shalecMar 17, 201512 votes

Not really crying, just making a point. I haven't had a problem with Sejuani at all, but anything above a 55% win rate usually says that something is off.

Jaygo41Mar 17, 201510 votes

{quoted}

According to cry babies any champ who has more than 50% win rate is ban worthy and should be nerfed to death. Stronk logic.

ok but j4 and vi get the bat when they win 53%, sejuani DOESNT get the bat when she wins 58% k gotchu man

SammystormMar 18, 20151 votes

this nerf won't even hurt her that badly.

MarshallBanannaMar 17, 201522 votes

LeeSin 22.86% pick rate 18.15% pick rate / 37.05% ban rate JarvanIV 15.02% pick rate / 16.75% ban rate Pantheon 13.71% pick rate

Sejuani 11.54% pick rate OMG nerf nao crowiding out all other junglers so op!!1

RetillinMar 17, 201511 votes

How many junglers have been nerfed in the past 6 months before anything happened to Lee?

junglerboy16Mar 17, 20156 votes

It's hardly a nerf dumbass. Do the math and you'll realize that the only true nerf is for if you wiff your ult, which shouldn't happen to you at all if you play her regularly. The W and E number tweaks mean her DPS is the same or higher end game, while taking away a slight bit of early clear speed. Her net balance is only going to change for people who suck with her ult, other than that this is just a number redistribution, almost a buff even.

KingsgraveMar 17, 20152 votes

{quoted}

22.86% pick rate 18.15% pick rate / 37.05% ban rate 15.02% pick rate / 16.75% ban rate 13.71% pick rate

11.54% pick rate OMG nerf nao crowiding out all other junglers so op!!1

In Plat and Higher in the Jungle Sej and Lee only have about .6%ish difference in playrate, both around the 19% level

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Jungle

KhristophorosMar 17, 201516 votes

The nerfs seem appropriate to me.

W - Reducing the % makes her less effective against other tanks, which makes a lot of sense considering she has some of the best engage so she already does the core job of a tank really well. Why should she also be good at killing other tanks? They didn't go far enough here. They should change it to flat damage instead of % health. She doesn't need % dmg to clear jungle anymore anyway.

E - Whatever doesn't matter. I don't see why they're doing this. Seems like they want to say they're compensating with a power shift but this is so minor that it doesn't count, and she doesn't need compensation anyway.

R - Missing the ult shouldn't 90% slow. Good nerf.

DropFillMar 17, 20153 votes

{quoted}

The nerfs seem appropriate to me.

W - Reducing the % makes her less effective against other tanks, which makes a lot of sense considering she has some of the best engage so she already does the core job of a tank really well. Why should she also be good at killing other tanks? They didn't go far enough here. They should change it to flat damage instead of % health. She doesn't need % dmg to clear jungle anymore anyway.

E - Whatever doesn't matter. I don't see why they're doing this. Seems like they want to say they're compensating with a power shift but this is so minor that it doesn't count, and she doesn't need compensation anyway.

R - Missing the ult shouldn't 90% slow. Good nerf.

Missing the ult doesn't give 90%. You just miss If people are on the AoE splash radius of it though, so yes, they should be slowed

PuaruMar 17, 20156 votes

{quoted}

The nerfs seem appropriate to me.

W - Reducing the % makes her less effective against other tanks, which makes a lot of sense considering she has some of the best engage so she already does the core job of a tank really well. Why should she also be good at killing other tanks? They didn't go far enough here. They should change it to flat damage instead of % health. She doesn't need % dmg to clear jungle anymore anyway.

R - Missing the ult shouldn't 90% slow. Good nerf.

They seem appropriate to you because you apparently have never played her. Her W used to have flat damage, and her Q had the % health, this power was shifted. So you propose that her power should be shifted, and then just go ahead and remove it while you're there. Yeah, good plan.

Missing the ult doesn't 90% slow. It fucking misses the ult like every other skill shot. It slows when you don't hit it direct, just like Leona's.

KhristophorosMar 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

They seem appropriate to you because you apparently have never played her. Her W used to have flat damage, and her Q had the % health, this power was shifted. So you propose that her power should be shifted, and then just go ahead and remove it while you're there. Yeah, good plan.

Missing the ult doesn't 90% slow. It fucking misses the ult like every other skill shot. It slows when you don't hit it direct, just like Leona's.

She has % damage because she needed it for jungling before cinderhulk was added. She doesn't need it anymore.

And the 90% slow is excessive for a sloppily landed ult.

FadedpfMar 17, 201510 votes

I am very disappointed at this. Just why.

Zenthon PrimeMar 17, 20153 votes

Because players apparently have no idea how to play vs. tank junglers. It is actually that simple.

ForgiveColourMar 17, 20158 votes

so we can have more jungler at 60% win rate? yeah nice balance LOL

junglerboy16Mar 17, 20151 votes

Meanwhile WW...

Shaded StrikerMar 17, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile WW...

He was nerfed when that happened.

LankPantsMar 18, 20151 votes

That wouldn't happen unless the changes were so impactful that it caused jungles to go into lanes and overpower traditional laners. If you have 2 junglers in one game one of them has to win and one has to lose.

thinking manMar 17, 20158 votes

I agree, we need every single tank jungler at a 58% winrate while seeing competitive play!! What could possibly go wrong???

PuaruMar 17, 20152 votes

Uhh, if every single tank jungler had a 58% win rate then that's all people would pick and it would normalize to ~50%

junglerboy16Mar 17, 20158 votes

They aren't really nerfs. A good Sejuani will not notice the miss slow on ult getting lowered, since you hit the shot more often than not. The W nerf is to tone back her early clear, which was too fast and safe and didn't leave a clear opportunity to punish her. E buff is so that late game you don't even realize the W nerf happened. Riot did exactly what should have been done. They gave her a love tap that keeps bad noob Sejuanis from pub stomping without hurting good Sejuanis at all.

NarasimhaMar 17, 20152 votes

The loss of damage on her W is made up by the increase on her E, atleast on squishy targets. I believe its an overall buff if the target has less than around 2000 health. Also, the slow nerf on her ult really doesn't make a difference. You can just use Permafrost. Overall, this isn't a huge change. Its not going to make her numbers drop too much.

RetillinMar 17, 20152 votes

How often is Sej able to get to those squishies though? Isn't she a front line tank and not an assassin?

KhristophorosMar 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

How often is Sej able to get to those squishies though? Isn't she a front line tank and not an assassin?

She has really long range engage between her dash and her ult. The enemy frontline has to block her abilities or else she absolutely will stun the backline.

RetillinMar 17, 20153 votes

That's the issue though isn't it? If there is no front line and Sej is allowed to get to the squishies, isn't that the other teams fault (or a great job by Sej)? One tank or heavy brusier can block her ult from landing (unlike Amumu). So if she has to Ult and then Q to get to the enemy adc, her damage is going to be lowered. Is this not the idea of "counter play" Riot has been yelling for the past year?

Meep ManMar 17, 20152 votes

This nerf isn't too big. Her early game is the same and her late game is about the same against squishies. Her R is less rewarding for missing it. Its not too big of a nerf.

ThePlasticSporkMar 17, 20152 votes

Ult change is good because it punishes somewhat poor usage of her ult. Really, if you hit someone with the slow and then use E, it's pretty much the same effect anyway.

Her damage against squishy targets isn't really changing much, the W changes mostly impact her clears and ability to fight other tanks. I think reducing her early clears a bit while still maintaining her incredibly strong teamfighting and rewarding good usage of her ult are all good changes. She will still be strong after these changes - they, by no means, dumpster her.

Doctor DymentMar 17, 20152 votes

But they just buffed a large group of the tank junglers. The fact that Sejuani could build full tank, and also deal an oddly substantial amount of damage warrants a nerf. At least to me.

IcyPepperMar 18, 20152 votes

item 3153 and Vayne hurt her hard tho. In order to counter Botrk, she needs to prioritize armor and loses out on health, which cuts out her damage.

Tho I really wish they'd just nerf her W and leave her ultimate alone.

MessaigaMar 18, 20152 votes

The nerf to her Ultimate literally will have no effect if you land it. I imagine its just mostly something to "Separate the good Sejuani's from the bad Sejuani's." as Riot would put it. About Vayne, that's literally just an issue with Vayne dealing %HP True Damage (no direct counter to it, only mitigation is available through attack speed slows).

IcyPepperMar 18, 20151 votes

I understand it to a point, but 30% from 90% is rather steep. I'd be able to deal with 50%, but I'm not sure. I mainly saw it for teamfighting utility, you throw it in to initiate, stun the tank and slow the backline. Kind of like Ashe's ult but with less range.

I guess as long as you get in there and use her E, it should be fine... or at least have the slow % increase per rank? Maybe 30%/40%/50%?

Guy Fox TeemoMar 18, 20151 votes

It shouldn't even have a slow in the first place if you miss it. Thats like saying malphites ult should still aoe slow everyone if you dont hit it. Sej's R has a big ass hitbox and if you miss thats your own fault for being bad at her.

DropFillMar 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

It shouldn't even have a slow in the first place if you miss it. Thats like saying malphites ult should still aoe slow everyone if you dont hit it. Sej's R has a big ass hitbox and if you miss thats your own fault for being bad at her.

It is there so it actually effect backlines that are being protected by tanks. The tank get stunned, the backline slowed.

Guy Fox TeemoMar 18, 20151 votes

so hitting everyone in teh fronline for 1.75 stun , (A lot of the times the backline to since the aoe is so big), you get to have the extra chance of hitting the back line with 90% Slow? IDc if goes down to 50% thats still hell of a lot, for 1 skill.

DropFillMar 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

so hitting everyone in teh fronline for 1.75 stun , (A lot of the times the backline to since the aoe is so big), you get to have the extra chance of hitting the back line with 90% Slow? IDc if goes down to 50% thats still hell of a lot, for 1 skill.

the aoe is big, the shatter aoe is not that big. amumu can do it in a easier way, while "snaring" everyone. Don't see you complaining about him

Guy Fox TeemoMar 18, 20151 votes

Amumu doesn't snare everyone he stuns everyone difference. Its also not range like sejuani's :)

Also amumus stun has a longer cd by 20 seconds.

DropFillMar 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Amumu doesn't snare everyone he stuns everyone difference. Its also not range like sejuani's :)

Also amumus stun has a** longer cd by 20 seconds.**

Way harder to miss it.

Guy Fox TeemoMar 18, 20151 votes

Not much as WAY harder, just harder to miss, sejuani's ult is preety dam hard to miss to unless your dumb, travels Preety dam fast. Also big aoe.

DropFillMar 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

so hitting everyone in teh fronline for 1.75 stun , (A lot of the times the backline to since the aoe is so big), you get to have the extra chance of hitting the back line with 90% Slow? IDc if goes down to 50% thats still hell of a lot, for 1 skill.

Bard can stun entire teams with his ult. Only one skill. Amumu can snare entire teams. Only one skill

They are ultimates dude, a reason why, you know, they are called ultimates.

Guy Fox TeemoMar 18, 20151 votes

1: Bard doesn't stun then he zhonya's all of them and everything around them. Nulling every bit of damage or cc. And this can happen to your team to if you scru up. 2: Amumu can stun an stun an entire team but if people on the edge dont get hit, THEY DONT GET SLOWED FOR 90%. His R also isn't ranged in the sense that he can throw it. to stun them team far away from him :)

DropFillMar 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

1: Bard doesn't stun then he zhonya's all of them and everything around them. Nulling every bit of damage or cc. And this can happen to your team to** if you scru up.** 2: Amumu can stun an stun an entire team but if people on the edge dont get hit, THEY DONT GET SLOWED FOR 90%. His R also isn't ranged in the sense that he can throw it. to stun them team far away from him :)

1: Bad usage of your ult. Sejuani only gets a slow if the ACTUALLY tries to hit someone. If you TOTALLY miss it, nothing happen. 2: Amumu can't troll it. Because he throws HIMSELF and his ult snare can't be blocked by someone like sejuani's one

Guy Fox TeemoMar 18, 20151 votes

1: Its your own fault if you make bad usage of your ult , you shoulnd't even get anything out of it. Be better and land it. 2: Even if amumu can't troll it's ranged. And you forget how strong range is compared to melee. 3: Sejuani's ult can only be blocked By Banshees, windwall, and braum shield. Amumus can be blocked by banshees not windwall nor braums shield. And they can both be nullified by QSS.

DropFillMar 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

3: Sejuani's ult can only be blocked By Banshees, windwall, and braum shield. Amumus can be blocked by banshees not windwall nor braums shield. And they can both be nullified by QSS.

Sejuani's ult can be blocked by a person too.

IcyPepperMar 18, 20152 votes

For the last time, people keep saying I'm talking about how I shouldn't get punished for missing the ult when I'm talking about the teamfighting utility.

Please, for the love of god, read what i write before you talk about me "missing it."

I mainly saw it for teamfighting utility, you throw it in to initiate, stun the tank and slow the backline.

Not "I mainly use it for the slow because I can't land skillshots for shit" like people keep assuming. Do not assume I said this. I never once did. I typed, and quoted what I said. To gloss over that and say "It shouldn't even have a slow in the first place if you miss it" is blatantly ignoring everything I said.

Sej's R has a big ass hitbox and if you miss thats your own fault for being bad at her.

Know what ad hominem is? It means you didn't even read my argument and you just want to take pot shots at people because apparently "teamfighting utility = missing skillshots."

Seriously, it's your own fault for being bad at arguments. You shouldn't have any credibility if you miss the point. I had a big ass quote for my main argument and if you missed it it's your own fault for being bad at discussions.

Le DauphinMar 18, 20152 votes

I thought this was going to be satire on what Lee Sin mains always say (don't nerf Lee, just make everyone else as good even though Lee's good at everything!). You're actually serious though, darn :(

I think this is a well-thought-out nerf. It only really hurts if you play Sejuani poorly (missing ults). The W/E tweaks are in opposite directions and so partially offset.

WheatloafMar 18, 20152 votes

To be fair, she's been picking up traction for a little while now, enough so to be pretty much the only tank jungler to see competitive play in the last few weeks leading up to the Cinderhulk release. These nerfs don't destroy her (in fact, so long as you hit your Ult, the only nerf is to her W), and if a single champion of a class of champions deemed to be complete and utter garbage by pros is suddenly being seen as pick-worthy, something has to be up. Sejuani's situation is reasonably different from the meta shift that's brought Viktor into the spotlight.