ADC build discussion

nm1010··4 votes·1,415 views

So I have done a lot of DPS calculations based on ADC builds with Bork vs IE in 2 1/2 item builds (LW basic vs Zeal calculations were included as well) and I have found that Bork loses up to ~22.5% DPS vs IE at this point. That is including the Bork passive and seems like a rather major loss in damage to give up for a bit of lifesteal and the active effect. I would really like to hear some ADC mains tell me why you go for this route over the traditional IE route.

On the flip side of things the reason I got into these calculations in the first place was to prove the inefficiency of a Lw buy after IE Zeal item vs 1 Armor item targets (or 1 armor item + tabis) when compared to picking up another Zeal. Vs a target with only Tabis you are losing ~3% dps by going LW vs a zeal item. Vs a Deadman + tabis the IE Zeal item + Zeal loses less than 1% damage compared to buying a basic LW.

While playing with these calculations I determined that many adc players build LW far too early into their build, even including the increased damage from item 3036 makes no sense when buying into a team like this

https://i.gyazo.com/03ff32aeba6d3807bec1036eec9cdfbc.png

I would go so far as to say picking up a bork first item is always not worth it on champs like Ashe Varus in competitive play, but I will cede to my relatively low knowledge in the value of an early adc powerspike compared to losing a large chunk of your dps for the next 10-15 minutes.

Please feel free to ask questions about my calculations or to try to disprove them as I am picking up adc as a secondary role and would like to refine how I approach the role.

https://i.gyazo.com/85fadd98dcd12de8d983d824c10b6fa2.png

Ashe was the Adc I used as a baseline with a standard rune page and I used the 4% attack speed in ferocity only. Blade passive calculations were done seperately from the DPS shown and is ~18.53 dps vs Varus with Lw and ~21.31 dps vs Irelia with Lw.

11 Comments

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Then did you calculate what happens when the enemy team has a lot of item 3047 and various health items?

Botrk is glorious against high health teams as long as you can auto freely.

But you are not wrong, IE is indeed superior......with enough crit to back it up.

The issue of the critbuilds is that you need a lot of it for consistency, but the following issue with that is that you need a lot of gold, and if you fail to get that gold you will find yourself quite hard stuck.

Botrk on the other hand will just powerspike on each and every attackspeed and armor shredd item you build after, and even if you lack the potential damage of a IE+2x crit items you will still at least deal some sustained damage.

Not to mention, its lifesteal which is great against poke and harass.

Botrk is a item now customized for ADC's to be effective in the midgame even if it means getting to the lategame slower.

nm10102 votes

Then did you calculate what happens when the enemy team has a lot of and various health items?

I calculated out how much Hp a target would need with 100 armor post Lw for bork to be better dps than Bloodthirster. The answer was ~4100 which is really unlikely a target with that much hp would have low enough armor to make it though I will admit this was quickly checked and could be done again to make sure.

But you are not wrong, IE is indeed superior......with enough crit to back it up.

Not including bork passive, its actually about 50 dps worse than IE right off the buy. Of course the dueling enabled by the active is really nice first item, but gimps you pretty hard for the next 10 minutes (Imo).

The issue of the critbuilds is that you need a lot of it for consistency, but the following issue with that is that you need a lot of gold, and if you fail to get that gold you will find yourself quite hard stuck.

I'm not saying you can't get unlucky, but these calculations account for %crit chance. IE is the same price as Bork as well.

Botrk on the other hand will just powerspike on each and every attackspeed and armor shredd item you build after, and even if you lack the potential damage of a IE+2x crit items you will still at least deal some sustained damage.

Bork + Hurricane + LW = 7300g
Raw Dps = 261.98
IE + Hurricane + Zeal = 7200g Raw Dps = 450.65

That's a 42% drop in Raw dps, Even with a zeal over LW you lose 37% dps. That just seems like a very large chunk of damage to sacrifice.

Not to mention, its lifesteal which is great against poke and harass.

Yeah early lifesteal is one of the big advantages to going for Bork.

Botrk is a item now customized for ADC's to be effective in the midgame even if it means getting to the lategame slower.

That's the thing it is honestly worse in team fights compared to IE in every way except the active. It really shines only in dueling and it pretty much gimps your mid game compared to what you could've had. I really appreciate the counter points and I'll get back after checking on the Tabi passive calculations again.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

Not including bork passive, its actually about 50 dps worse than IE right off the buy. Of course the dueling enabled by the active is really nice first item, but gimps you pretty hard for the next 10 minutes (Imo).

Isn't that passive quite important!?

The active i could care less about though.

And how could the DPS of botrk with it's passive,attackspeed and whatnot be inferior to IE? Just which champion did you test on?

It should not be possible, because IE alone is really, really not useful at all.

In terms of a single item then botrk is ridiculously good, twice so for fervor users who get's attackspeed early with it.

Botrk is a instant powerspike, one that is quite easy to use for good effect.

IE is worse in comparison because RNG is unreliable, in terms of actual effect i don't think IE builds beat botrk in a fight until you´ve added a item 3086 .

Then there is the laning phase which i think is the main reason you would rush Botrk, it's build path which uses lifesteal is a lot more helpful for surviving poke, harass and whatnot whilst a IE build is far more vulnerable.

This is the biggest reason i can think of.

nm10102 votes

And how could the DPS of botrk with it's passive,attackspeed and whatnot be inferior to IE? Just which champion did you test on?

Crit is a damage multiplier, it is hard pressed to beat it in raw Dps. Twitch at level 9, though it could really be any champion.

Dps is Ad x As x Average Dps increase from crit

On twitch at level 9 assuming coming out of stealth for the attack speed bonus (this helps bork) has the following stats with both items

IE:

150.2 AD x 1.071462 AS x 1.3 Crit (20% crit + 50% effectiveness due to IE passive) = 209.21 Dps

Bork:

120.2 AD x 1.3430662 AS x 1 Crit (None) = 161.44 + Bork passive dps (33.85) = 195.29 Dps vs standard adc health range @ lvl 9

In terms of a single item then botrk is ridiculously good, twice so for fervor users who get's attackspeed early with it.

On average crit is actually going to be better for fervor users due to crit % dmg amp, as I said before you can always get unlucky but 9/10 times you will get regular crits as you should (Especially since riot has said crit in league has a 'rubber band' effect that keeps you near your crit %).

Botrk is a instant powerspike, one that is quite easy to use for good effect.

Yes the active is very strong for the 5 minutes or so you have until IE gets a zeal. If you don't get a relatively large lead in that time you have gimped yourself.

IE is worse in comparison because RNG is unreliable

As I said crit dps calculations factor in the average amount of criting you should do. Yes you can get unlucky, but with leagues method of crit rubber banding it is near impossible for significant divergence.

i don't think IE builds beat botrk in a fight until you´ve added a

I'd agree since the active provides ~100 damage plus the lifesteal helps in 1v1's.

Then there is the laning phase which i think is the main reason you would rush Botrk, it's build path which uses lifesteal is a lot more helpful for surviving poke, harass and whatnot whilst a IE build is far more vulnerable.

I'd agree this is why you rush it, but I don't understand why LCS teams are giving up at least 37% of their Dps for an early game item that they can easily rotate their bot lane to avoid.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

I'd agree this is why you rush it, but I don't understand why LCS teams are giving up at least 37% of their Dps for an early game item that they can easily rotate their bot lane to avoid.

Probably because the enemy would rotate in response? Or getting some disadvantage from rotating.

Not all champs can benefit from it or endure 1v2.

And...how to i explain this..

Botrk is better because of the lifesteal. Because while you do have superior DPS with IE and a zeal it's still utterly pointless if the enemy mages hits you twice and forces a recall.

Being able to come back quickly is a priceless virtue.

La Bello1 votes

thoughts on leaving out LW for a Cleaver? Dont tell anyone but sometimes on runaans champions I like to go cleaver instead of LW because I feel a bit tankier and still do decent damage while having anti-armor effects.I feel like BC and BORK are all you really need to pose a threat to medium armor targets and the added survivability more than makes up for the drawbacks of not having the LW 40% ar pen.

nm10102 votes

Against medium armor targets that are diving you it can be pretty good. If you aren't in threat of dying the bonus damage on item 3036 is incredibly valuable for tanky target busting. And of course item 3033 is great against heavy healing targets, but overall yes I think item 3071 is interchangeable for an armor pen option.

La Bello1 votes

Alright heres a spicier meme for you

which Marksman is the best in your opinion when built full AP OR Full Lethality?

nm10102 votes

Full ap goes to Ezreal, because ap Ezreal is actually really good. Full lethality is only good when the enemy team is really squish since tabi basically block 2 items worth of lethality by themselves. When lethality IS good early game bully adc's thrive (Lucian, Jhin, Mf, Draven, etc).

La Bello1 votes

you dont like full AP Varus or Tristana?

that shits dirty man auto the tank 3 times then ult him and E him to erase like 70% of his HP

or full Lethality cait Q does like 700 damage then you ult for 1300

AP ez is the low hanging fruit or meme builds

Tobias Brackner1 votes

I feel that higher-ranked players put too much value in power spikes. They don't know how to play around them and so everyone just piles into getting them.

Also there seems to be a horrible tendency for people to believe in One True Build. A single build that you do every single game no matter what happens no matter who you are up against and sometimes no matter who you are playing. It is pure madness that I cannot comprehend why it would exist in high-level play.

Thank you very much for sharing this information and I hope you are willing to continue to share your research in the future!

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