Why I believe crit chance ruins balance in this game

nm1010··13 votes·1,164 views

I will include a tl'dr at the bottom that is very brief, but I would really like it if you read through this entire post and digested the points I bring up.

First things first I would like to establish what riot has said about the Marksmen class's role in the game

We don’t have a subclass for marksmen because they all tend to functionally do the same thing (deal a lot of sustained damage). There are some key differences between marksmen, like range, mobility, and combat patterns, but we have yet to draw a clear line for design purposes. Source

They want all Marksmen to have a differences in everything except dealing sustained dps of some sort. Then why in Faker's name are random crits still in the game? Having % crit chance is exactly what allows Lucian to build item 3153 item 3071 into crit and still be nearly as effective as full crit spec'd Marksmen into late game by using his passive to whip out autos to hope for those 50% crits while having an amazing early lane bully phase.

Sure in theory Lucian does less dps, but in practicality he can get off abilites to get 2 autos off plus his passive shot in about a second that deal 960 damage before crit (JUST THE AUTOS DO THIS) with 300 ad. Half of these should crit, if he is lucky and the full damage attacks crit he will increase this damage to 1860 without any casino breaking luck. So compare this to a standard adc build with double zeal item (so 70% crit vs Lucian's 50%), 2 attack speed, and 300 ad as well you get an average dps of 1230... Even if we assume both shots crit (statistically unlikely) you get 1500 Dps... the exact same damage Lucian would do if his secondary shots all crit instead of his full damage versions. Lucian has effectively out scaled this adc while building an early game bullying build.

Riot's solution to this problem? Nerf the black cleaver Botrk interaction, or in a more analysed terms treating the symptoms and not the problem. The problem being the age old randomized crits, for the sake of seeing what would happen if we made crits a % based auto attack damage amp instead lets try this math again. So for Lucian with 300 ad and 2 autos (again I am not including the spell damage) he deals 1680 damage with IE passive on his 50% damage amp. Enemy Marksmen with 300 ad, 2 attacks, and 70% damage amp still deals 1230, so as you can see this straight up punishes Lucian's early build path by losing 10% of the damage on this combo without punishing the standard adc build.

This would have protected bruisers that built the item 3071 + item 3153 combo who were hurt by the nerfs that they had no hand in causing. Do you know what other items this could have protected the efficiency off? item 3142 item 3814 both would have been much more of a trade off for Marksmen to build over crit, making the decision a much harder one.

Now I know how you Marksmen players love to talk about how you need build diversity despite you having one of the largest selections of items for a single class. Well with this change builds would become much more standardized (unless you want to go full early-mid game) that is true, but you would also no longer have to lose fights due to not critting as much as the enemy which would be a welcome change. Another benefit to this would be that Marksmen and Marksmen items would be able to be balanced in a way that is focused on THEM instead of having to be balanced around how other classes items and champions are performing.

For instance lets go back to the Varus's passive buff that gave it attack speed scaling to compensate for weaker armor pen items. This buff was excellent and made crit Varus work, however shortly after this buff lethality items became good and Varus was a top performer. Now we had quite a predicament, Varus had his choice of builds that allowed him to excel when he wanted to. So how do you handle this? You can nerf Varus, nerf lethality, or nerf crit items. If you nerf Varus shortly after he just became viable again he may not be able to perform against other Marksmen, if you nerf lethality you are hurting champions that legitimately use the stat like Pantheon or Zed for no fault of their own, and if you nerf crit you are hitting all of the other adc's that use it.

As we know they ended up giving Varus a slight nerf with some compensation and nerfing lethality with no compensation that I can remember. So what came out of this scenario? Varus is on to using the next strong item item 3153 without a care in the world while assassins are building bruiser or crit since they can't get the type of damage they need out of their lethality items anymore. If Varus had actual trade offs to these builds he himself could have been fine tuned to function in a world where neither item set needed to be changed.

I quite frankly see no reason why random crits are still in the game, they bring nothing but balancing nightmares and losing fights in positions you should win. They have been warping balance decisions for years and should be done away with, I even have a new name for the new stat... Accuracy, it even makes perfect sense, the more accuracy you have the more %damage amp you have on your auto attacks.

Please take the time to read this post and bring up any and all suggestions/problems/questions you have on it because realistically everyone should want this change.

Tl'dr: Random crits warps balance decisions and the power level of the champions who buy crit chance. It has no place in this game any longer and should be removed for static damage amps.

42 Comments

Símo3 votes

Too bad this won't ever be seen by a rioter,because there busy in M & G or replying to all the "999 games in insert gamemode looking for a rioter for 1000".

Tobias Brackner1 votes

I'm fine with games having swingy mechanics. Also I believe they found an elegant nerf to Cleaver by putting in the cooldown on the stacks.

nm10103 votes

I'm fine with games having swingy mechanics

Why? It ruins the integrity of a competitive game while also making the balancing of non crit items adcs use into a horror show.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Balance takes time but they are coming up with unique solutions. Really I hope that they get it good enough so that they can bring back non-Marksman crit.

And it doesn't ruin the integrity of a competitive game. Many sports deal with weather, card games have randomness built in, and wargames still use dice universally. Randomness is vital to the enjoyment of many games and works wonders for their accessibility.

nm10103 votes

Balance takes time but they are coming up with unique solutions.

Tell me one good reason turning it into a consistent effect is not the best solution.

Randomness is vital to the enjoyment of many games and works wonders for their accessibility.

Find me a person who likes being rng'd to death by a Gangplank E with a item 3142 item 3031

Find me a Gangplank who likes not getting any damage increaseon a barrel off of item 3031 item 3087 for that matter.

Edit: While we are at it

And it doesn't ruin the integrity of a competitive game. Many sports deal with weather, card games have randomness built in

You ever notice why many adcs opt for anything that isn't IE first even though it has one of the best Dps's on paper? Its because the people who play this game for a living don't like RNG and avoid it whenever its possible in the meta.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Tell me one good reason turning it into a consistent effect is not the best solution.

...I answered this in the second part of my post...

Find me a person who likes being rng'd to death by a Gangplank E with a

It means you gotta respect Gangplank. Or rather shoot for all-ins. With the math in your favor chances are that your engages will come out on top (assuming you are someone who baseline deals more damage than GP). If he just so happens to get nothing but crits then laugh at your misfortune, just like people do when they lose to extremely unlikely odds.

Also can't GP crit on the barrel? Like he can crit when hitting the barrel? Or the barrel's damage can crit?

nm10102 votes

I answered this in the second part of my post

You said you thought it was "vital to the enjoyment of many games", I and as I pointed out, many pros disagree with you. I'm sure many people in higher elo can agree that losing a fight because "lul Twitch just crit 4/5 times with runaans" (actually happened to me) was a super fun and enjoyable experience.

Also can't GP crit on the barrel? Like he can crit when hitting the barrel? Or the barrel's damage can crit?

His barrels damage can crit, with Triforce youmuus IE he can legit 100-0 you (with ult) if it crits. There is nothing "fun" on the receiving end of that, even GP players have expressed a desire to move towards this consistent crit system due to barrel damage being largely luck based until late game.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

And I pointed out that a lot of games that are highly competitive have minor to severe randomization elements. You are observing individual player preference.

GP works incredibly hard for his barrel plays. The chance to do crazier damage seems perfectly fair for the amount of work he puts into landing the barrels.

nm10102 votes

And I pointed out that a lot of games that are highly competitive have minor to severe randomization elements. You are observing individual player preference.

A player in soccer doesn't randomly get double the points for a goal, not to mention if they could purge the randomness of weather I am absolutely sure they would (Note indoor arenas that are expensive as hell).

GP works incredibly hard for his barrel plays. The chance to do crazier damage seems perfectly fair for the amount of work he puts into landing the barrels.

You misunderstand, many Gangplank players would prefer the more consistent damage. Tobias himself has talked about giving GP barrels damage scaling with crit instead of criting many many times over the past year. Nobody who is competitively playing this game likes it because it is an unfair mechanic. Even riot is slowly admitting it with the crit scaling on stuff like Xayah e.

You can say it averages out to be EQUALLY unfair for both sides, but who wants that? Why do you not just want a fair game that is decided on how well you play?

Tobias Brackner1 votes

A player in soccer doesn't randomly get double the points for a goal, not to mention if they could purge the randomness of weather I am absolutely sure they would (Note indoor arenas that are expensive as hell).

First you strawman, making up a flimsy example instead of the strong ones that I have presented. Then you cherry pick one example from the list of examples that I provided without acknowledging the others. You are just another of the hundreds of posters on this board that cares more about proving himself right than actually thinking and looking at what the other person has to say.

I am done with you.

nm10102 votes

making up a flimsy example instead of the strong ones that I have presented.

You literally gave 3 examples, sports, card games, and war games. This game is classified as an esport, you claimed sports have weather as a random element. I then said they try to get rid of that with very expensive enclosed stadiums while also bringing up the fact that weather is not on the same level of impact as every auto attack an adc throws post crit buy.

Then you cherry pick one example from the list of examples that I provided without acknowledging the others.

This is neither a war game or a card game, I'm sorry you think that is cherry picking?

You are just another of the hundreds of posters on this board that cares more about proving himself right than actually thinking and looking at what the other person has to say.

Did I hurt your feelings when I told you crit is a toxic mechanic? I have been on this board for over a year, yes I am VERY hard on opposing opinions, but I have also ceded to anyone who had solid logic and reasoning for their opinions. You my friend have no leg to stand on for why an archaic mechanic should stay other then "it can be fun" or "other sports have it" even if other sports do not have it by choice.

I am done with you.

Good, try to accept having your ideals being challenged next time and articulate what the person is saying instead of just down voting every post on sight like a child.

Shahamut2 votes

His examples are terrible, he's lucky you addressed any of them. Weather is a circumstance outside of the game of soccer. A better counter example would be, "man I am glad people have internet connection problems randomly, makes things more interesting" which is absurd, as is his weather example. When pro soccer players slide in mud because of weather problems, it says nothing about their skills, just that their gear (cleats) did not function.

nm10103 votes

Also I believe they found an elegant nerf to Cleaver by putting in the cooldown on the stacks.

I've tried to be reasonable with you, but I am going to start calling you out. This change never went through, they literally just Nerfed Cleaver by breaking its Botrk synergy in 7.12 and lowering its armor shred in 7.9. Congrats to Lucian for breaking a fighter item, this is exactly what I was talking about in the post. If you can't even keep up with basic functions in the game I really don't think you have room to be making decisions on large changes to fix long broken parts of the game.

https://i.gyazo.com/0f454c1e2c3db79464c9ac1834573ccc.png

Hell if they removed crit you might not even notice it was gone.

Darkdemon6531 votes

There's nothing in Lucian's kit that allows him to synergize with crit. 50% crit is the exact same for him as 50% more damage on auto-attacks and Lightslinger.

nm10103 votes

An IE crit is 150% increased damage, 50% increased damage + 50% more for IE passive is 75% increased damage. That is the point of the post, as is a crit is a crit regardless of how much crit you have (excluding IE).

So no it is not the exact same thing.

Darkdemon6532 votes

{quoted}

An IE crit is 150% increased damage, 50% increased damage + 50% more for IE passive is 75% increased damage. That is the point of the post, as is a crit is a crit regardless of how much crit you have (excluding IE).

So no it is not the exact same thing.

Right, and the amount of increased damage IE's passive gives would be same if it was a general increase in damage than it it just increased damage from crits.

A crit is a crit, but they don't happen as often with lower a lower crit chance. 50% crit will increase a champion's auto-attack DPS by 50%, which is the same as increasing a champion's auto-attack DPS by 50%.

nm10103 votes

It would punish people who build non crit first while having no effect on on a standard crit builds dps. You literally only gain consistency from this change and actual punishment for non early crit building adcs.

This is opposed to lucky crits becoming game changing or from someone buying armor pen IE and hitting a lucky 250% damage crit to do 60% of your hp. Do you understand that someone can have a dps of 150 after IE buy, but if the first auto is a 375 damage crit it changes the way that lane is played. Why is that fair they just happened to crit first and get a lane advantage from it?

Tobias Brackner2 votes

Because luck makes things interesting.

Depending on lane you can heal up the damage, recall, outplay them to make up the damage difference, there are still plenty of options against a lucky crit.

nm10101 votes

heal up the damage

I don't have a heal and used my pots for the last crit

recall

I am behind 1-2 waves of minions because of luck, w00t fun and interactive gameplay.

outplay them

I tried, they crit me two more times and I died. Lost lane and probably the game because of luck, interactive and fun.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

the last crit

Ah, then you are having a very unlucky game

I am behind...

1-2 waves has never lost a game. Play more League, you will have run it back from worse.

And you are completely dismissing the concept of outplaying. Play more League of Legends, try and spectate random matches. You will see people run it back from worse.

nm10101 votes

1-2 waves has never lost a game. Play more League, you will have run it back from worse.

Your game

https://i.gyazo.com/6476505dceed8d69cc92c003c4415b7d.png

My game

https://i.gyazo.com/fac9396ff429bd6a0072dfc4fd5bed01.png

The people I play with don't let you come back from deficits like that.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

The people I play with don't let you come back from deficits like that.

Dude, come backs aren't given. They are taken. All you are describing is that they are the better player than you.

nm10101 votes

All you are describing is that they are the better player than you.

So I have to be exponentially better than my opponent to make a come back from their advantage they got because of a random crit?

#Fairandinvteractivegameplay

Tobias Brackner1 votes

exponentially better

You got the math to back that up?

nm10101 votes

This is actually childish, but to satiate you

Adc with IE vs Adc with IE

Adc A crits first auto and does 150% more damage than Adc B does.

That means I (Adc B) am behind by 150% of my ad, to statistically make up that difference I would have to auto twice without being auto'd back.

So for his 1 contested auto I need 2 uncontested autos (With IE you statistically have a 130% of AD auto with IE) to make up for it. Thus the exponentially better scenario.

This is mathematically of course and is all subject to blind luck in an actual game though.

Do you know how many autos you would need with my system? None cause you would both do the same dang damage, unless of course you outplayed your opponent and got an uncontested auto in. In that case you would be one auto attack ahead, as you should be.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

-Marksmen have varying ranges -Marksmen have skillshots -Marksmen can attack while the other already AA a minion -Your example has one Marksman crit but not the other even though they both have IE -You actually described a scenario that is completely fair statistically

nm10101 votes

You actually described a scenario that is completely fair statistically

Do you have some math for that? You only gave conjecture.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

You ignored all of my other points. I'll go ahead and end this conversation here since you obviously aren't interested in conversation.

Also

Adc with IE vs Adc with IE

By definition they have the exact same chance to crit and in the world of pure statistics their damage will be identical.

Feel free to keep on posting so you can argue for the sake of arguing. I am done with you.

nm10101 votes

I've literally answered every point up until you started trying to use ranges, abilities, etc in a DPS discussion xD

By definition they have the exact same chance to crit and in the world of pure statistics their damage will be identical.

This is covered in the OP the section on Theory vs Practicality, its kind of what all this is about so you should really read that before you post.

Shahamut2 votes

And you are still not understanding that outplay <RNG. You can make the cleanest play, but you can't dodge right clicks, and if you aren't already ahead, RNG can decide the fight in spite of skill. That is why it is frustrating. Luck doesn't make things interesting, just frustrating.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

You are still not understanding that outplay > RNG

Like, by definition. Look at the math involved during laning phase crits.

Fuck, play board games and war games. Only through cosmic bad fortune will RNG win out. So in the grand scheme of all the games that you play, RNG will be the deciding factor in immensely rare scenarios.

Shahamut2 votes

Incorrect, as in board games and war games are often decided on RNG alone. Any game whos primary tools are dice or cards is this way.

This is not a crap shoot game, and as stated, you CANNOT dodge a right-click. Therefore, the RNG is the sole determiner at time as to whether or not you win or lose the fight. Its no longer a battle of skill or numbers.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Incorrect, as in board games and war games are often decided on RNG alone

Sign up for a Ticket to Ride Tournament. Sign up for a Warmachine Tournament. Sign up for an Infinity Tournament. Sign up for a MtG Release/Draft Tournament. Go to any boardgame / wargame tournament and sign up. The less knowledge you have the better. Then when you get knocked out your first match, ask them who the best players are. I guarantee you will consistently see a few guys who are the ones most often at the top.

Shahamut2 votes

Yawn dude... yes, they will have a macro advantage.

This can be compared to a good Tryndamere vs a bad one. No matter how good the RNG, a bad Tryndamere will not carry games. A good Tryndamere can carry games even when the RNG is bad, but it's more difficult.

This thread isn't addressing a macro issue, but a micro one. Duels (especially in lane phase) are not made interesting or fun when you clearly have the advantage, but lose an all in because trynd gets "lucky" and lands 3 crit in a row. And my point still stands, that if luck decided to crap on those other games, I could walk in with next to zero knowledge/experience and win.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

And how many games would you need to play to win through pure luck?

I imagine the number would be close to how many times Tryndamere is able to completely win his lane through lucky crits alone.

HaIlMonitor8 votes

Yeah a crit is a crit until you take 3 in a row from that 35% tryda and lose lane. FUN STUFF

Tobias Brackner2 votes

He got lucky. Recall and go back in. Or if you got killed go back in and proceed to bully him again.

MagikarpIsBoss4 votes

Its hard to bully someone who you just got first blooded by. They have more gold worth of items and most likely can kill you again.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Chances are they have 10 more damage than your. Still plenty of room for you to win through outplay. This depends on matchup, of course, but I also feel that Tryndamere has more bad matchups than good ones.

Shahamut2 votes

The problem is though that the matchup is still largely RNG based:

he got lucky

Not, he outplayed you, or he was lucky you messed up your combo. You just got RNG'd. This works in reverse also for Tryndamere at times as well. That doesn't make it fair or balanced though. It certainly isn't an expression of skill.

Flat consistent damage amps are much easier to balance and work much better when it comes to clarity in game for all parties involved.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

It's not largely RNG based. You know the RNG. The odds are in your favor of no crit. It's not an expression of skill in the extremely rare times that the crit comes through as the overwhelmingly deciding factor.

Crits force scenarios where people need to think on their feet, making the game more engaging in the very rare occurrences that they arise.

Who is Taliyah1 votes

Yeah that sucks.

More from Gameplay

More by nm1010