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Nautilus isn't being picked as anything but support. His jungling definitely needs something new.

Gosh Darn··60 votes·3,827 views

His jungling was nerfed when his winrate and playrate really weren't that high back in 5.x. The recent buff to his R helped his support a lot, but his jungling is miles behind Amumu, Zac, Sejuani, and Gragas who all do something similar but have much better performance overall. I think he's really healthy as a jungler and should be put back into the scene under that role. His MS is abysmal and his ganks are strong but very telegraphed.

Having the lowest AS of any champion without some sort of gimmick like ammo or juggernaut levels of AD, his single target damage is HORRID, and it makes his clears extremely slow because he clears the small monsters in 1-2 abilities and then takes a minute to clear the large monster. His single target dps is among the lowest in the game, especially for a jungler, and his health is slowly chunked away as he only has 1 target for the hp return of talisman. I have an idea to slightly alleviate this problem without changing any of his other roles.

  1. Change his passive to stun monsters instead of rooting them, increase the damage against monsters, or reduce the cooldown against monsters. Honestly I think a reduced cooldown against monsters would be one of the healthiest and specific buffs this game has seen. His biggest weakness is that he has practically no damage against large monsters with his crap AS and his damage being aoe. Giving him a bit more damage vs the large monster could be all he needs.

97 Comments

DeadlinWalking8 votes

What a joke..Naut top dominates most.

How about actually playing him correctly? Ps. T7 Naut.

Gosh Darn23 votes

This thread isn't even about Naut top idk what you're reading.

EDIT: To make it clear, I mentioned all 3 roles in the title because I wanted to emphasize that support Nautilus is perfectly fine. The post is about jungle Nautilus because it can easily be buffed without affecting support Nautilus at all (which would cause support Nautilus to be too strong and result in a nerf, making the changes completely contradictory). I still think Top Naut could use some help but that's a whole different issue.

This person basically just replied with "git gud".

Sightless667 votes

To quote your title: "Nautilus isn't being picked as anything but support."

Seems like a pretty strong claim about how much play Naut top is seeing.

Gosh Darn15 votes

It's about making jungle Naut viable without overbuffing support and causing another nerf. Top Nautilus is a whole different issue to tackle, but right now I think JG is the easiest of his roles to balance.

Harrys Nut Shack4 votes

He's not getting play, he has a 1% pickrate. Nautilus was nerfed right before the changes to the game set him back even more.

Sightless665 votes

It's getting half the play of Naut support. Naut has a very low playrate in general. That's a problem too of course, and it's kind of connected to the problem OP brings up.

Pill Slinger3 votes

If you want to talk about Naut jg, then make your title that? You literally made your title that Naut support is only naut...he said no, it's also played top and you said omg no this is about Naut jg.

Skias2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Poopybunghole,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rRhQcYKe,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-10-31T00:39:56.056+0000)

This thread isn't even about Naut top idk what you're reading.

EDIT: To make it clear, I mentioned all 3 roles in the title because I wanted to emphasize that support Nautilus is perfectly fine. The post is about jungle Nautilus because it can easily be buffed without affecting support Nautilus at all (which would cause support Nautilus to be too strong and result in a nerf, making the changes completely contradictory). I still think Top Naut could use some help but that's a whole different issue.

This person basically just replied with "git gud".

Welcome to the League of Legends forums. Where people form opinions without actually reading any of the content.

Gosh Darn1 votes

It was one of the first comments in the thread and appeared like a minute after I posted, they clearly didn't read it. All forums have idiots like that.

Zach Sandwhich7 votes

As someone who mains Support Naut, i'm all for buffing him, just don't try and gut support Naut to compensate.

Gosh Darn1 votes

That's exactly why I was focusing the buffs towards jungling. Right now the main thing stopping him from being a decent jungler is that he simply can't deal with large monsters. A dash of single target damage against monsters only would help that problem a lot without affecting his top or support at all.

Zach Sandwhich1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Poopybunghole,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rRhQcYKe,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-10-30T23:42:07.194+0000)

That's exactly why I was focusing the buffs towards jungling. Right now the main thing stopping him from being a decent jungler is that he simply can't deal with large monsters. A dash of single target damage against monsters only would help that problem a lot without affecting his top or support at all.

I understand, it's just that a lot of these Threads start off as simple buffs, like what your suggesting, but then devolve into One playstyle being gutted in favor of another playstyle simply for a couple of peoples enjoyment, instead of actually wanting to shift the champion away from a bad playstyle I.E. Tank Ekko. I'd like to thank you for considering all other playstyles of a champion!

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Tell that to riot who gutted nauti from being viable in three roles into being barely viable as support.

Berserknurple5 votes

{quoted}

As someone who mains Support Naut, i'm all for buffing him, just don't try and gut support Naut to compensate.

mumbles something about saying the same thing about jungle naut when support nautilus was beginning to be played semi popularly

Irelia Bot5 votes

After haivng felt the oppression of Alistar Jungle I'm going to say no.

They had to nerf Ali's jungling that was already bad because the ganks were literally uncountable if he came back 30 seconds later after you flashed.

Naut if he were to be a fairly fast jungler would have nearly the same levels of oppression as jungle Alistar.

If you want faster clear speeds and a better time in the jungle you would have to give up something out of the jungle.

Berserknurple13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rRhQcYKe,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2016-10-31T06:13:09.256+0000)

After haivng felt the oppression of Alistar Jungle I'm going to say no.

They had to nerf Ali's jungling that was already bad because the ganks were literally uncountable if he came back 30 seconds later after you flashed.

Naut if he were to be a fairly fast jungler would have nearly the same levels of oppression as jungle Alistar.

If you want faster clear speeds and a better time in the jungle you would have to give up something out of the jungle.

You... you know nautilus was originally a jungler right? Only ever played in that position?

His kit was designed for it and he really didnt feel overly oppressive or anything. Even during cinderhulk meta other tanks like sej were op while he was fairly healthy.

Sadly, he unintentionally became a very good support due to his kit and base damages, which necessitated nerfs... Which killed jungle nautilus due to an absurdly slow clear time.

Battlecast Sona4 votes

he "really didn't feel oppressive or anything" and that's why his MS was nerfed to one of the lowest in the game to help prevent him from ganking you as easily.

Where do you guys get all your rose colored glasses for previous seasons, I need a pair

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

His movespeed has never been nerfed... The only change he's ever had to his movespeed was a buff.

V1.0.0.152

Stats
    Movement speed increased to 325 from 300

Where do you get your misinformation? I'd like to see who's shilling it out.

Sire Hippington3 votes

not exactly a buff, it was ther patch where EVERY CHAMPION got their ms increased by 25, and ALL BOOTS got the ms reduced by 25, it was a system change so boots where no longer a mandatory starting item and not really a change to any champion.

Berserknurple3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Battlecast Janna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rRhQcYKe,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2016-10-31T16:13:04.688+0000)

he "really didn't feel oppressive or anything" and that's why his MS was nerfed to one of the lowest in the game to help prevent him from ganking you as easily.

Where do you guys get all your rose colored glasses for previous seasons, I need a pair

The MS nerfs were fine. Those didn't kill jungle naut, and they didn't destroy his clear speed which is what we are talking about. And prior to those nerfs he still wasn't unhealthy like jungle alistar was, he just needed some numbers tuning. Riot has stated they don't want jungle Ali to be a thing specifically because it is unhealthy for the game.

A champion being slightly too strong in a given patch and being unhealthy for jungling as a whole are two hugely different things.

Battlecast Sona2 votes

Nautilus with higher clear speed is a terror though. As I've detailed in a post below this, Naut is basically Vi with higher on-demand survivability and without putting himself in danger to initiate with his ultimate. A champion that can walk into lane and push R on you with very little risk to themself and guarantee a knockup is not ever gonna be a weak jungler, but currently tanky ganking/disrupting junglers aren't popular atm. The picks right now are focused on powerfarmers and duelists. Yes, some of them have disruption/tank parts to them (Lee Sin has a ton of disruption in his kit, for example, and Rek'Sai builds like a tank), they are generally powerfarmers or bring utility to their team in other ways. Nautilus is just a strong ganker who scales into raidboss tank status, and since most games aren't getting to that point nowadays people aren't picking him (for the same reason we aren't really seeing Amumu or Sejuani).

Berserknurple2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Battlecast Janna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rRhQcYKe,comment-id=000b0000000000010000,timestamp=2016-10-31T18:31:18.228+0000)

Nautilus with higher clear speed is a terror though. As I've detailed in a post below this, Naut is basically Vi with higher on-demand survivability and without putting himself in danger to initiate with his ultimate. A champion that can walk into lane and push R on you with very little risk to themself and guarantee a knockup is not ever gonna be a weak jungler, but currently tanky ganking/disrupting junglers aren't popular atm. The picks right now are focused on powerfarmers and duelists. Yes, some of them have disruption/tank parts to them (Lee Sin has a ton of disruption in his kit, for example, and Rek'Sai builds like a tank), they are generally powerfarmers or bring utility to their team in other ways. Nautilus is just a strong ganker who scales into raidboss tank status, and since most games aren't getting to that point nowadays people aren't picking him (for the same reason we aren't really seeing Amumu or Sejuani).

That's the thing, Nautilus had a higher clear speed, and wasn't a terror. Even during cinderhulk meta, the height of tanky disruptive junglers.

Before he didn't have the fastest clear ever, which was fine. The problem is he has the slowest clear by a huge margin of any jungler now, to the point where you simply can't keep up with a competent enemy jungler.

He doesn't need huge buffs or anything I think he's honestly pretty close to being perfect. He just needs slightly faster clear, that's it. Back to how it was before. It's just sad that you can't really play him effectively in the role he was designed for, because of the influence of the support role.

Battlecast Sona1 votes

I won't claim to play a ton of jungle or anything, but upon the last time I played him I felt like his clear speed was pretty in line with Amumu/Sejuani (the two champions I feel most closely mirror his role in a team). I feel his biggest weakness right now is actually that he's (always been) weak to being counterjungled, and a large portion of the popular picks right now are either good or amazing at counterjungling, especially a low level Nautilus. I just worry about buffing his early clears because of his capability to become raidboss status with the HP scaling shield.

Berserknurple1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Battlecast Janna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rRhQcYKe,comment-id=000b000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-31T18:46:52.524+0000)

I won't claim to play a ton of jungle or anything, but upon the last time I played him I felt like his clear speed was pretty in line with Amumu/Sejuani (the two champions I feel most closely mirror his role in a team). I feel his biggest weakness right now is actually that he's (always been) weak to being counterjungled, and a large portion of the popular picks right now are either good or amazing at counterjungling, especially a low level Nautilus. I just worry about buffing his early clears because of his capability to become raidboss status with the HP scaling shield.

Yeah I totally agree this isn't the meta for nautilus regardless. Which is fine. His clear used to be about the same as Amumu/Sej but it isn't anymore unfortunately :/

If they get him back around there it would be perfect. His horrid clear makes something he should be weak to (counterjungling) and makes it 10x more punishing.

Battlecast Sona1 votes

I think we'll have to see how the preseason changes pan out before Naut gets any changes, tbh. The capability for him to have really high uptime on the new keystone (Colossus something, gives a shield for hard CCing a target) may help him out in the teamfighting/ganking department and the other jungle monster changes may help his clear out. I'm hesitantly excited for new jungle because it could potentially open the jungle up to more picks in any given meta.

G4LLOWSC4L1BR4TR1 votes

Shyvana was originally designed as a top laner, not a jungler, but here we are with jungle Shyvana as her only role. Sometimes champions migrate, and while I have no experience with jungle Naut, as a support Naut main I'm wary of touching him because his support strength is already great and anything (not solely applicable to monsters) that helps his jungle will probably bust him in the bot lane. I do think the reduced CD on his passive VS monsters would probably help though, especially because you seem more concerned with his clear speed than the damage he takes, which is all that stunning the monsters with his passive would do.

Sire Hippington2 votes

I take you weren't around for release Nauti? There are few cahmps that recived harder nerfs than nauti since their release cause he was 100% oppresive back in the days. Irelia bot somewaht has a point, though honestly, i prefer a naut ganking me to a Lee wardstepping over a wall and kicking me out of my tower once every minute, though i would prefer hard changes to the toptier junglers over buffing others to their level.

That beeing said, even with some buffs, nauts clear still wouldn't be fast by any means right now so imo where is some room to buff him.

GayFluffyUnicorn6 votes

What is so different about nautilus jungle compared to gragas, sej, jarvan, vi? All of strong but dodgeable ganks nd especially vi, sej and nauti ult are kinda of the same sort (lockdown). Don't think he is more oppressive than those and i guess some people here mix up different words and their meaning.

Meep Man5 votes

Ali jungle is different. His ultimate let him gank from behind tower and take little to no damage for ages. Plus, his CC cannot be dodged.

The Deckowner4 votes

Do you know how I felt when I got out run by someone with tier 1 boot as nautilus with tier 2 boot and zzrot?

Gosh Darn3 votes

Like a champion that needs a better niche if not straight up buffs? [slayer-jinx-wink]

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Yeah that's actually nautilus' biggest problem. Once you faced a cassiopeia top as nautilus you actually know what a slow bastard he is. Full boots vs none boots and every adc+ cassio are faster- I think it is because of his strong engage with Q and R but still it feels very shitty to be a sitting duck once you missed your Q. Then there is darius with his nearly infinite MS boost or ranged champs like cassio (yes i have a personal hate) who are ranged (yes i like to repeat myself) with strong CC, good base MS and still get a MS boost to make sure you can't outrun them.

Sire Hippington4 votes

What Nauti needs is a revert of his W nerfs. Ever since they nerfed that W while buffign his E, his solo and duolane started to outshine jungle. Now with the E beeing nerfed back to hell, his clear is pathetic and his laneing is that great either. Giving him back some more damage on W would help his clears while givie him a bit better trades in lane if he commits to them opposed to the waveclear/poke from E spam. A buff to his Base AS probably would also go a long way.

Another way to buff naut would be adding a 50% mana-refound on his Q on walls, so yousing it to get faster through the map is actually viable instead of draining your mana in no time.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

Or you know, revert the nerfs on his damage; but against monsters only or something.

MonkeyMadness2 votes

His jungle was nerfed indirectly nerfed reduce the power of his top/support game. The damage on his E was the most noteable nerf. To make him an effective jungler, Riot would need to IMMENSELY buff the W.

THE RlVER KlNG2 votes

Let TK stack his passive against buffs and large monsters and we'll call it even. Now that he only has 1/3 of the damage vs minions and monsters he used to he has been struggling.

Berserknurple2 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rRhQcYKe,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2016-10-31T11:26:43.245+0000)

Let TK stack his passive against buffs and large monsters and we'll call it even. Now that he only has 1/3 of the damage vs minions and monsters he used to he has been struggling.

I love TK jungle, but at least he wasn't designed as a jungler and then left in that state. He is still very viable top and support. Naut is now viable support or as a very niche top laner.

Paroe2 votes

Can we have it so Nauts W gives a scaling by level HP/5? ;-;

yogozin2 votes

Juggernautilus. Toplane focus.

item 3068 or item 3001 item 3074 if you got sunfire. item 3748 if they have burst or you got abysal.

item 3022 item 3078 item 3053 in any order if you have another tank. Build traditional tank if you don't.

If you opt for no boots, get an infinity edge, or a BotRK.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

I'm all for playing champions other places; but why get a frozen mallet on nautilus? His auto-attack is already a mini-stun, and all of his abilities except his shield are also crowd controls. Rather a warmogs or torment for more health or utility.

Primaquarius2 votes

Lets have his Ability AD bonus scale better than just "per-level", or maybe boost the DoT of W.

On a side note, the cooldown of W is far too high considering how long it lasts in battle

SociopathFriend1 votes

He's low damage for single targets because he's packing probably the most CC the game has to offer. Potentially 5 snares that can't miss A pull with fairly good range An AoE slow that's super spammable And a knock-up that, again, can potentially hit multiple targets

Nobody else packs that much CC. The closest ones that come to mind are Braum and Leona, champions who, surprise, are often used in support. Making his passive stun monsters would be a huge buff- not a small one. Increasing the damage is possible but would require a fair bit of coding as his passive works equally on all things- not saying it's wrong- just that you're technically doubling the amount of work his passive has. Same with the cooldown- or the CC- it's one ability.

Champion Skin2 votes

Potentially 5 snares that can't miss (a bit unlikely given his low MS and mobility) A pull with fairly good range An AoE slow that's super spammable And a knock-up that, again, can potentially hit multiple targets

Well yes... though the only thing that Nautilus actually has that prevents someone from dealing damage... is his Q (very short duration and single target with pretty long cooldown) and his R (AoE and very powerful but it is an ultimate after all).... all of his other CC while powerful at keeping someone in place doesn't actually prevent them from dealing damage (unless it keeps them out of range though that depends on how long range the enemy champions have)

SociopathFriend1 votes

He stops two people from dealing damage with abilities- and then his passive means any melee champion trying to get past him to grab a squishy is going to find themselves snared and then slowed as the fight goes on around them.

This is invaluable: Their tank can't engage on your team because they're stuck in the frontline. Their Juggernauts can't get to your backline for the same reason. Any Assassin that gets within melee range isn't going anywhere for a moment (during which they can be bursted) ^Same as above but substitute the ADC or some Supports.

He's great at getting picks, fairly good at counter-engaging, and a walking wall to the enemy team in a teamfight. Damage is pretty much the only thing he lacks- he has to lack SOMETHING. A champion isn't supposed to be able to do everything.

Or, god forbid, actually build damage items to deal damage. item 3748 He likes health anyways- build this and start whacking away. item 3068 What's better than a wall? A flaming barrier that does damage just for being around it (and they will be, because he's a walking CC god) item 3001 Enemy team have a lot of AP? Build this bad boy and watch that damage stack with the E spam/ item 3025 Armor? Mana? CDR? Another slow besides his already full kit? Yes please item 3027 Health, Mana, and Ability Power- takes a bit to stack but nothing goes to waste for him. item 3116 Fairly giant chunk of health and ability power- plus even more slows. item 3742 Armor, health, additional damage just for doing what you want to do anyways. ^All of these are viable and actually give him damage.

All I'm saying is just a blatant "Naut needs more damage in the kit" isn't the way to go. And he can't have damage because he has so much CC packed into him. If you want damage, build it.

Champion Skin1 votes

Their tank can't engage on your team because they're stuck in the frontline. Their Juggernauts can't get to your backline for the same reason.

Yes... but since Nautilus is rather low damage (and don't have % max HP which a lot of other tanks have) the enemy front line can just focus on Nautilus while protecting their backline since they likely have higher damage (though of course that depends a lot on what kind of carries both teams have... like Jinx Vayne Twitch Cassiopeia Kayle almost always win in a DPS fight)

Though Nautilus does actually have pretty good damage... it is just doesn't scales well as it kind of maxes out at around level 9 (max E) or maybe 11 (rank 2 ult and some more points into shield to make it last longer) So I hardly think anyone would want more raw damage on Naut... though if they want to buff naut jungle the easiest way to do that would be to increase damage against monsters or give him less up front damage and more DPS? Though I don't see a great way of doing that... maybe moving power into his W as it more DPS focused (compared with E) but you kind of have to tank the jungle monsters making the shield break...

Though I personally don't think it is necessary doing so probably wouldn't break the game either (and there is almost always some champion at the top and I don't really see any particular problem with it being Nautilus)

LankPants1 votes

If he's going to be a jungler he needs more damage VS monsters. Stunning them won't help, he already takes very little damage in his clear. Should probably just give his passive AOE VS monsters and his W a bonus VS monsters.

SpecterVonBaren8 votes

A stun means the monster isn't attacking which means it isn't breaking his shield which means he's not losing his main source of damage.

The Darius King1 votes

I've read a vast majority of the comments in this section and all of you are saying naut is really weak right now but on the whole he isn't just two days ago i played naut jg and went 14/2/15 if you know how to play him he can be especially strong and as for naut top he works against most top champs as well except for a few such as darius and gnar but he is slow but he can have damage if you take grasp of the undying or in jg i take strength of the ages naut isn't the strongest champion in the game but he certainly isn't one of the weaker ones

Hardstuck G46 votes

A single game is not enough of a sample size. Get maybe 100 games like that, and it will give us more of a reason to accept that he's fine

Gosh Darn3 votes

I don't like to bring rank into discussions because I think anyone can have an opinion without rank being a factor, but you made a really big claim so I'm gonna go ahead and mention that performing well once or twice in Bronze 2 is simply not applicable to discussion of viability. You can defend your claims by talking about his abilities or gameplay, but saying "I did good with this champion" is absolutely worthless.

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