"omg how did zed kill me???? so op"

SwapShadows·Feb 20, 2015·47 votes·3,805 views

"idk Bill, maybe ignite wasn't a good decision"

"don't open your fucking filthy mouth u dirty low elo scum, i ned this ignite to carry this game becuz u all fuckin suck"

"sorry Bill I just thought exhaust would've been a good choice because it negates all of his damage, and zhonyas rush wouldve helped you completely negate his ultimate...."

"are u questioning me??? I the silver pro?????? are you for one second, possibly thinking that a bronze like you understands how to play against zed like a silver pro liekk myself?? I hope u fucking realize that if i build a zhonyas i wunt be abel to curry this noob game"

"ok sorry, won't happen again"

bill 0/20/0 rip

100 Comments

C9 Scott Free Feb 20, 201533 votes

The sad part is I feel like Bill is the kind of guy to buy tear on Kat

fwL7umeoQeFeb 20, 201511 votes

Found the LC$ wannabe zed main.

ScramrailFeb 20, 20158 votes

item 3140 item 3157 item 3222 summoner 1 summoner 3 Lissandra Fizz

"no way to counter Zed"

SouL1essFeb 20, 201529 votes

Fizz is a free lane for Zed right now

And Fizz shouldn't be going mid lane anymore.

Edit: mikael's crucible doesn't dispel Zed's ult, and I don't think the heal is strong enough of a denial to Zed than it is to other assassins.

Edit2: Why is cleanse there...it doesn't do anything against Zed, don't misinform the public.

VelasanFeb 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Fizz is a free lane for Zed right now

And Fizz shouldn't be going mid lane anymore.

Edit: mikael's crucible doesn't dispel Zed's ult, and I don't think the heal is strong enough of a denial to Zed than it is to other assassins.

Well actually annie also counters zed pretty well because of flame shield. Technically so do fid and ori too if played well. Idk about fizz.

JunkοFeb 20, 201513 votes

That 10 armor and MR surely helps against Zed shield sarcasm

She still counters him, but that's because she has hard CC and really huge burst to shut him down any time he decides to fight her.

AudiomancyFeb 20, 20158 votes

item 3102 item 3140 item 3111 item 3157 item 3135 item 3151 summoner 1 summoner 3

"no way to counter veigar"

Counter-itemization/picking =/= Counterplay.

JunkοFeb 20, 20152 votes

Wait why are Zhonya, Void Staff, Liandry and Exhaust on the list? To cast Exhaust you have to get in range of his Q, E and R, so you are pretty much gonna die to any good Veigar player than can land E. Veigar ult also scales 80% of enemy AP, so Zhonya and Void Staff will just make him a worse problem, and he isn't tanky for Liandry to do anything except fuel his AP.

PatMcGroynFeb 21, 20151 votes

Wtf are you smoking? Being able to build items and counterpick in champ select are ABSOLUTELY forms of counterplay.

AudiomancyFeb 21, 20152 votes

No. Counterplay is being able to dodge skillshots, bait abilities and outsmart an enemy. Having games that are decided at Champ select is kinda crappy.

Nox FleuretFeb 20, 201520 votes

[deleted]

RoyaiChaosFeb 21, 20151 votes

Not really... Qss wouldn't help much against champions with no cc, crucible and cleanse as well. Exhaust would suck if used on a support, and zhonyas isn't that great against sustained damage. Liss can be beaten by range. Fizz is countered by Ryze, not the other way around.

Nox FleuretFeb 21, 20151 votes

[deleted]

RoyaiChaosFeb 21, 20151 votes

Zed is mostly burst.

Sozan5Feb 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Not really... Qss wouldn't help much against champions with no cc, crucible and cleanse as well. Exhaust would suck if used on a support, and zhonyas isn't that great against sustained damage. Liss can be beaten by range. Fizz is countered by Ryze, not the other way around.

Crucible and cleanse don't help against Zed either, unless you MUST cleanse that slow of his. Both ot those don't dispel his ultimate.

AmightyTFeb 20, 20157 votes

All these items (except zhonyas) are terrible as all hell for mid, and the armguard's armor is nullified the second zed buys a brutalizer which would be his first back. great try.

IcyPepperFeb 20, 20152 votes

Silver sash has great utility, no matter your role. It basically counters Zed's ult, so... I mean, what's more important? A little extra damage or removing Zed's "delete" ability?

BakedLotionFeb 20, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Silver sash has great utility, no matter your role. It basically counters Zed's ult, so... I mean, what's more important? A little extra damage or removing Zed's "delete" ability?

Counters his death mark proc, except his Q and E can nuke u from 100-0 without the pop. did i mention his super charged autos?

IcyPepperFeb 20, 20151 votes

Build some armor/health ap items against his shuriken thingy
If he wastes his shadow in order to Q and E, call in a gank because he's vulnerable.
If he doesn't use his shadows unless to score decent trades, he's still melee, so kite him.

There is PLENTY of counterplay available. Unless you're ahead, you can't just expect to build full damage and win 100% of the time, that's the point of counterbuilding. And you're complaining about Zed 100-0 nukes when that's typically the midlaner's job against squishies? An Ahri, Leblanc, and even a Syndra can nuke someone when appropriately fed/farmed just like Zed can. Just treat Zed like any other midlaner, and he's easy to manage. Gank his lane, abuse his kit (if he uses shadows offensively, he leaves himself vulnerable), kite him and win trades, don't let him get close to auto, build lichbane and auto him back to reduce oom moments, build armor/health, build some utility ( item 3116 is great if you want ganks), and so on and so on.

BakedLotionFeb 20, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Build some armor/health ap items against his shuriken thingy

If he wastes his shadow in order to Q and E, call in a gank because he's vulnerable.

If he doesn't use his shadows unless to score decent trades, he's still melee, so kite him.

There is PLENTY of counterplay available. Unless you're ahead, you can't just expect to build full damage and win 100% of the time, that's the point of counterbuilding. And you're complaining about Zed 100-0 nukes when that's typically the midlaner's job against squishies? An Ahri, Leblanc, and even a Syndra can nuke someone when appropriately fed/farmed just like Zed can. Just treat Zed like any other midlaner, and he's easy to manage. Gank his lane, abuse his kit (if he uses shadows offensively, he leaves himself vulnerable), kite him and win trades, don't let him get close to auto, build lichbane and auto him back to reduce oom moments, build armor/health, build some utility ( is great if you want ganks), and so on and so on.

So basically you're telling me to wait for him to make a mistake. As if that didnt apply to anyone else.

Klatn YeloxFeb 22, 20151 votes

You are correct. Every ~~midlaner~~ laner can be safe unless they make a mistake. But Zed is safe unless he makes a mistake? False. If you are aggressive, you can force him to not use his w to harass, which greatly increases the ease of dodging it. And that just the thing. He has more damage on all his abilities because he can be dodged. They are all skillshots, so they all do more damage than targeted abilities. Practice that dodging thing, or stay the hell out of midlane. If you can't dodge, go top or jungle, because mid and bot are dominated by skillshot champs these days, due to the high reward of the ratios, and the higher base damage.

FrikgeekFeb 20, 20151 votes

Call in a gank? Right, I'm sure the jungler will drop whatever he's doing and teleport midlane(all while avoiding places that are likely to be warded) and get in position to gank in the 15s that Zed's shadow is on CD. Sounds perfectly reasonable.

IcyPepperFeb 20, 20151 votes

Junglers gank midlane all the time. The 15s window is just the best time to do it. You call in a gank if you know Zed uses his shadows to harass, and the jungler jumps in while Zed has no escape.

It's all about timing.

This game is about strategy, you can't complain about a champion without even considering other aspects of the game or his kit.

SalzigorimandoFeb 20, 20152 votes

"Strategy" is a long term concept. It's about what you have to do, your overall goal. Strategy in League now a days is basically "Killify the enemy and smasherize those purple zapper thingies to get the big crystal-majig."

"Tactics" on the other hand, are short term concepts. They're about how you're going to do what you need to right now. Things like setting up a gank, baiting an all in, or even farming up for a Zonya's are tactics.

It's not really a strategy game y'know?

And speaking of aspects of kits, Zed can and probably will take flash too, since everybody does, and it's not like he's a slow immobile caster either. Unless your jungler's packing some heavy CC catching him is still going to be hard.

FrikgeekFeb 21, 20151 votes

What if he uses it to waveclear then just backs off under his tower? Zed is one of the safest midlaners atm (Anivia with blue buff and a ton of manaregen is safer since she can delete waves in 2 seconds and immediately back off). He's also practically resourceless. If you were facing better Zeds you'd understand how infuriatingly safe his laning phase is. Sure, he's not as good lategame as AoE mages with CC(Ahri, Annie, Xerath, etc.) Not to mention that if he does get ganked while his W is down, he still has his ult to dodge your CC and just back off.

IcyPepperFeb 21, 20151 votes

You got a point. Many mages can waveclear pretty fast, but Zed is pretty safe.

Look, I'm against the mentality of "X champ is OP, no counterplay" because counterplay is limited to the player, but I do agree that there is some balancing issues with Zed. I have never agreed with energy resource (sure, you get one rotation, but that ends up deleting a squishy and you only have to wait 10-20 seconds to do it again!), and certain manaless champions (Katarina is easy to manage, but I just don't like her kit). It's just plain unfair to mages, who can't spam spells to farm at the same pace without losing mana. And if a mage is out of mana, it takes longer to regain enough to have a chance at a trade with Zed.

I get that people don't like him, and I agree that some balancing is in order, but I believe that there can be a Zed that IS balanced, that is counterable and beatable. Maybe there needs to be some adjustments to the energy system, perhaps?

he still has his ult to dodge your CC and just back off.

To be fair, many champions can use their ults/spells to dodge cc and escape. Ahri Alistar Fizz Gnar Tristana Ezreal and so on.

FrikgeekFeb 21, 20151 votes

Ok, sure, Alistar has an ability that removes CC, but he's a tank, it's different. And Fizz is the only one on that list that can actually dodge targeted CC. I wouldn't really call Zed overpowered but he does lack counterplay. Sure, you could pick targeted CC that outranges his ult and be somewhat effective but he still has no matchup that he's absolutely horrible in(even fizz who completely denies his ult with his E). If all else fails he can fall back to his safe resourceless waveclear and hope to be useful by splitpushing later. I don't have problems with all resourceless or energy based champions(as some of them have very obvious weaknesses). Riven, Garen, and Renekton are hard melees that have no way to lasthit(let alone waveclear) from range. If they can't get that position next to the creeps(due to falling behind or getting poked hard), they're not gonna get cs. Shen has high energy costs that force him to actually think about using his skills and how to best use his limited energy, Akali actually can't get her full combo down if she decides to use shroud(it costs 80-60 energy, and you usually max it last) so she has to wait for regen in her shroud(which is negated if you have true vision). Zed's shadow costs 40-20. Kennen has very safe last-hitting with Q spam, but at least his waveclear is melee-range with E-W so he's at some risk if he wants to waveclear. Same with Katarina.

I think resourceless ranged waveclear is a feature unique to Zed, and I also don't think it's very healthy. It's the same problem waveclear mages had back when manaregen items made your manabar a decoration. Infinite safe waveclear leads to non-interaction lanes and no real way to get outplayed.

IcyPepperFeb 21, 20151 votes

Well put, actually.

Shen has high energy costs that force him to actually think about using his skills and how to best use his limited energy,

Since Shen and Zed are related in lore, and both are ninjas, shouldn't that be a shared trait? Maybe that's the balancing issue with Zed, the energy issue.

You're right. Zed has low costs and low risks when wave-clearing. Maybe that does need to be examined. He nukes squishies just like any other midlaner, but he shouldn't be that safe.

Sozan5Feb 21, 20152 votes

{quoted} If he wastes his shadow in order to Q and E, call in a gank because he's vulnerable.

This is exactly the problem with Zed.

He's not vulnerable after using his W. He uses it from safety and he doesn't have to swap with it in order to deal his full damage combo. Unless he makes a big mistake after using his W (like getting in range like a fool, when he have a 900 range skillshot with low cooldown exactly for this situation) then he is completely safe.

Other Assassins have to get in risk in order to use their full combo or even to waveclear efficiently, mostly by getting into melee or nearly melee range.

I don't really mind his burst, or general assassination pattern - it gives many more options to the opponents than Talon or LB when they had silence in their kit or Fizz pre-nerf. But his safety has to go (mostly his safety in poking and farming, but I think his R shouldn't be swappable to until you kill someone (or get an assist)). Assassins are supposed to be high-risk, high-reward - not no-risk, high-reward.

DedriusFeb 20, 20156 votes

I feel like I can't listen to someone named "SwapShadows" about Zed balance.

But that's just me

SwapShadowsFeb 20, 20154 votes

lets teach bill how to play this game

xX Hyper XxFeb 20, 20153 votes

It's almost like it was talking.

SwapShadowsFeb 20, 20152 votes

riperino

LegitBacon66Feb 20, 20154 votes

Zed isn't even that strong that people say he is. Its a lot of over exaggeration

JunkοFeb 20, 20154 votes

He is really strong atm if you know how to play him, same for Yasuo, Kat and the like thanks to the mana nerfs. He is just safer than Yasuo and Kat and is played by pros more often so people bitch about him.

KaisadiIIaFeb 20, 20152 votes

LOL nobody is complaining about Zed's R. People are complaining about his entire kit.

SwapShadowsFeb 21, 20151 votes

"Zed has the ability to escape anytime he wants with his ult"

"Zed instakills anything with his ult"

"you cant counter a point and click ult"

Ariel the CruelFeb 21, 201512 votes

"Zed is effectively resourceless."

"Zes has strong wave clear."

"Zed is a top tier duelist (even without his ult)."

"Zed is a strong split-pusher."

"Zed scales decently into late game."

"Zed is a strong Lane Bully."

"Zed has a low cooldown blink and slow."

"Zed has % max health magic damage."

"zed gets BONUS % AD while having all this."

Yep. his ult is the only complaint.

SwapShadowsFeb 21, 20151 votes

if you use a combo on someone in lane and get ganked, you have no energy to cast anymore spells.

so i stopped reading at resourceless

Ariel the CruelFeb 21, 20152 votes

His full combo costs 165 energy at level 3. It goes down from there to 125 energy at lvl 18 (ult is free). He has a pool of 200 energy. He regens 10 energy every second. This does not take into account energy return on his abilities.

His biggest concern at lvl 3 after doing a full combo is the 18 second cooldown on his shadow. NOT his energy costs.

FrikgeekFeb 20, 20151 votes

Right, Zed goes in, you exhaust him, he presses R and is completely safe. He then just goes in again 60 seconds later and kills you to death. Rip smartass that thought exhaust counters zed.

SwapShadowsFeb 21, 20151 votes

Who said that zed ulting you means you should not fight back??? more like zed ults you, you exhaust then follow him to his ult shadow so he cant escape and force him to use all summoners or even get a kill/force recall.

FrikgeekFeb 21, 20152 votes

You follow him to his shadow that's about 1000 units away and he probably still has his W to hop back. His ult is a big GTFO button that makes him probably the safest assassin(and therefore least countered by exhaust). If Talon or Akali hop into the fight and get exhausted(and revealed with oracle's) they're fked. If you watch the LCS you've surely seen Zeds just GTFO from a failed assassination by just pressing R. You're better off just getting a zhonya/QSS and trading cooldowns that are about equal(the Zhonya CD is a bit longer but not 3-4 times longer like exhaust).

SwapShadowsFeb 21, 20151 votes

I stopped reading at oracles

Yulen XoshxiusFeb 20, 20151 votes

Doesn't Zhonya's have good AP though anyway?

SwapShadowsFeb 21, 20151 votes

A lot of midlaners dont rush it against zed for some reason xD morellos 2 stronk

Yulen XoshxiusFeb 21, 20153 votes

Morellos is understandable as it gives mana regen and good CD rate

Ariel the CruelFeb 21, 20157 votes

It's a loosing scenario for most mages either way.

Rush Zonyas and Zed can't 100-0 them. But now he'll just use his infinite sustain and strong wave clear to siege tower and push them out of lane.

They build mana [regen] and match his wave clear. But he can still 100-0 them under tower.

The biggest problem with zed, is that his strengths counter his weaknesses. Until Riot acknowledges (and fixes) this, he will continue to terrorize mid lane.

SwapShadowsFeb 21, 20151 votes

deskface

How is he going to push your turret when hes a melee and is easy pickings for most midlaners who are ranged???

if he steps 1 foot into your area and starts attacking that turret you can easily poke him for most of his HP.

Ariel the CruelFeb 21, 20152 votes

He can just use his ranged abilities to harass and wave clear. If he wants to smack a tower personally, he can save his shadow for a quick escape. His cooldowns and negligible energy costs allow him to do this very effectively.

But lets assume he doesn't want to siege tower. He can just force his opponent under it and roam instead. The problem is the same either way.