So let me get this straight, Veigars job is defined as a burst mage?

SwapShadows·Mar 1, 2015·90 votes·3,937 views

so why does his rework completely ruin this?

throw out your stun and pray to jezis you can land it from a miracle
throw your w
throw your Q and completely miss because 4 other champions and multiple minions are in the way
throw your ult and watch the enemy live with 20% hp or completely die if you have a full build and they have 0 mr

so thats the new burst mage??? pray you can land almost impossible spells and if all goes wrong then hope your ult 1 shots them?

59 Comments

RrettMar 1, 201539 votes

I don't know why people are still complaining.

Even if riot reads this they're still going to completely ignore it like everything else they do.

Balance team doesn't give a shit about the community or their very well based opinions.

SpecterVonBarenMar 1, 20155 votes

Well they did finally start doing something for tanks, so I guess the way to help Veigar is just complain about it long enough until someone does something.

agbudarMar 3, 20152 votes

you mean after they ripped it out of the jungle leave it for 2 month's then FINALLY decide to do something about it?

SpecterVonBarenMar 3, 20151 votes

Pretty much yes.

SolaxoMar 1, 201515 votes

{quoted}

I don't know why people are still complaining.

Even if riot reads this they're still going to completely ignore it like everything else they do.

Balance team doesn't give a shit about the community or their very well based opinions.

Hope..

Malix FarwinMar 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I don't know why people are still complaining.

Even if riot reads this they're still going to completely ignore it like everything else they do.

Balance team doesn't give a shit about the community or their very well based opinions.

I agree with this, they arent going to change their minds which was painfully apparent in the patch rundown. Fairly sure they wanted to delete veigar from from lol and this is the best way to do so.

BasidiomycotaMar 2, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I don't know why people are still complaining.

Even if riot reads this they're still going to completely ignore it like everything else they do.

Balance team doesn't give a shit about the community or their very well based opinions.

there is no balanced team, only a meta team when they dont like something they kill it and release new and better champs all the time

DeusVultMar 1, 201516 votes

They turned Veigar from a burst mage to the AP poke version of Nasus

Instead of doing anything meaningful in lane, his job is now to AFK farm his Q, and then late game poke with Q and use W and E to discourage engage/separate teamfights

All of which makes his ult irrelevant since its still low range and he is no where near safe enough to be able to get in range of their mage and its damage was nerfed.

Its ok though, totally an across the board buff the make up for DFG loss

Malix FarwinMar 2, 20153 votes

{quoted}

They turned Veigar from a burst mage to the AP poke version of Nasus

Instead of doing anything meaningful in lane, his job is now to AFK farm his Q, and then late game poke with Q and use W and E to discourage engage/separate teamfights

All of which makes his ult irrelevant since its still low range and he is no where near safe enough to be able to get in range of their mage and its damage was nerfed.

Its ok though, totally an across the board buff the make up for DFG loss

i'd take nasus wither over veigars E atm

chumblerMar 2, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cPx04vaE,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2015-03-02T04:27:30.301+0000)

i'd take nasus wither over veigars E atm

I'd take literally any skill in the game over it.

The Veigar changes make me incredibly angry at Riot's incompetence when before I had just been amused by it. They're blatantly just done because he was shutting down their beloved high mobility #LCSBIGPLAYS rather than for any credible reason an intelligent person would give. Moreover, they're incredibly stupid changes, too. They took away literally his only utility, so now all he has left is numbers. The hell are they going to buff? Turn his Q into Nid spears? Yeah that's really great design there. Anything else they could do would just remove Veigar's identity. It's worse design than even the godawful Cass rework.

These changes were done with absolutely no intent of leaving behind a useable champion. It's disgusting that people are letting Riot get away with this.

ElBoobMar 2, 20157 votes

I would take Urgot's inate reducing the target of my autos damage by 10%(no scaling) is better than this new E. I would take TALON'S INNATE(increase damage from my autos by 10% vs movement impaired targets), an ability that I literally could not use without buying an item.

CupcakeTrapMar 2, 20155 votes

{quoted}

I'd take literally any skill in the game over it.

I played a few matches with New Veigar. I paused to ask myself why I would ever level up his E or his W. I think I actually played part of the match with unused points, because I genuinely saw no purpose in leveling either of those abilities.

Then, I realized that I could still use W to push minions when my lane opponent went AFK, or at least, I could if I had any mana. So fair enough: level up W.

Leveling up his E, on the other hand, increases mana cost and adds stun duration to a "stun" that cannot actually stun a target unless they choose to run into it or are already CC'd. Well, okay: it also reduces the cooldown, so that you can not stun people more often.

When I tried to burst someone who chose to run into the stun (because after dropping even further than my neglected Normal Queue MMR was to start with, I started getting opponents who would do stuff like that), and failed to do so because my Q was minion blocked, I started looking around for the hidden cameras. "Okay, Meddler, come on out, you got me good."

But it's not even the hilarious weakness that gets me. I am, or was, a Veigar main; I don't mind playing weak Champions. What really gets me is that he's so unbearably dull now. There's no strategy to him. You AFK farm in lane, then you walk into teamfights, throw a stun anywhere on the off chance someone disconnects mid-fight and AFK-walks into it, and lob damage in the general direction of the enemy team. There is no 1v1 dimension to him anymore; his 1v1 is to go toe-to-toe with an enemy and trade face-punches, and (being Veigar) he will of course lose such exchanges unless dramatically ahead.

I used to have a lot of respect for Riot's balance team. No, really. They'd often surprised me with their ideas and won me over after some initial skepticism. Here? I'm just not seeing it.

FanaticPharaohMar 3, 20151 votes

Stahp it! Riot doesnt get humor. The closest thing to a joke they understand is Urgot (the counter carry).

BerserkInfernoMar 1, 201514 votes

All according to plan, Mr. Anderson.

MeesterMooMar 1, 201514 votes

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/r83WAmU.gif

AnonTwoMar 1, 201513 votes

The rework seems hillarious so far because none of it seems to be based on your own skill

rather, it's based on your enemy making the most ridiculous mistakes.

ThryaleMar 2, 20151 votes

this. riot went from one extreme to the other.

SEKAIMar 2, 20158 votes

Because they originally brought up an idea for a burst mage (he is more of an anti-mage tbh but that's not saying as a mage himself he is not functional) with the downside of having 0 hp, 0 mobility and tricky to land cc and they thought "huh that's some fun idea, let's go with this", indeed it was very cool.

Then years later for some reason they found him to be toxic due to "hey this guy can 100- 0!! HE IS OP NERF",

Meanwhile, Zed and LB chilling somewhere else on Runeterra.

But really though, turning everything into skill shots is a mistake they will only regret later.

RanmanRebornMar 2, 20151 votes

Is anybody that originally balanced this game (around 2009, 2010) still ON the balance team? Has anybody with a brain already left the company?

KingsgraveMar 1, 20154 votes

His stun alone made him a terrifying support with little to no counter play in KR

It had to be changed

OyddAWqJ5rMar 1, 20151 votes

This is the real reason. Idk how people don't know this. Veigar has been played as a E maxing support for ages now because his stun was so broken. Now it's finally fixed.

Karol ScheiblerMar 2, 20152 votes

Fixed means impossible to land? I was laning against an Veigar" support". It was funny. He NEVER landed his Q or W against me as Corki. E? Yeah, he landed. When I misclicked my W. Ulti did nothing.

FIXED CHAMP

OyddAWqJ5rMar 3, 20151 votes

He was Gold V

RrettMar 1, 20159 votes

they could have spent little over 10 minutes thinking over the changes instead of immediately gutting him...

KingsgraveMar 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

they could have spent little over 10 minutes thinking over the changes instead of immediately gutting him...

They delayed it for 3 patches and I'm assuming they rested it based on their comments for at least 4-5 patches

TwitchInMyPantsMar 2, 201513 votes

{quoted}

His stun alone made him a terrifying support with little to no counter play in KR

It had to be changed

Annie is literally that

You know what Riot did to her?

2.25 second AoE instastun into 1.75 second AoE instastun

Riot is hypocritical to all design philosophy with this rework rofl

KingsgraveMar 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Annie is literally that

You know what Riot did to her?

2.25 second AoE instastun into 1.75 second AoE instastun

Riot is hypocritical to all design philosophy with this rework rofl

Annie has to build hers up and iirc the range of her R and fire cone are far less than that of Veigar E and far less CD and uptime

She also doesn't have a large amount of area denial with her Stun

Annie is a good support because of her kit. Veigar was a better support than the majority because of one skill.

TechnMageMar 2, 20156 votes

she also gets to stun everyone in the area not just those perfectly placed on the outside, it is hard enough to instantly stun a single target seeing as a change in direction during the cast time can change where you needed to place it let alone placing it to stun multiple targets like annie does so effortlessly.

Malix FarwinMar 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Annie has to build hers up and iirc the range of her R and fire cone are far less than that of Veigar E and far less CD and uptime

She also doesn't have a large amount of area denial with her Stun

Annie is a good support because of her kit. Veigar was a better support than the majority because of one skill.

The problem isnt so much that they gutted the stun. Its that they not only did NOT change his kit so that he would not be reliant on it but he needs it now then he has before in the past. He is a passive mid laner and there is virtually no comp where a passive mid laner is good.

ActuallyArrowMar 2, 20154 votes

Pray and hope, and if the Gods are with you, you may have a small chance of probably succeeding slightly.

OyddAWqJ5rMar 1, 20153 votes

Idk what stuns have to do with bursting.
Don't do it with minions/non-target champ in the way?
Yeah... this one was with old Veigar too.

so thats the new burst mage??? pray you can land almost impossible spells and if all goes wrong then hope your ult 1 shots them?

That's how Syndra was released... and still is after all her nerfs.

Azrael005Mar 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cPx04vaE,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-03-01T21:27:52.500+0000)

Idk what stuns have to do with bursting.

Don't do it with minions/non-target champ in the way?

Yeah... this one was with old Veigar too.

That's how was released... and still is after all her nerfs.

because unlike someone like brand his w aoe is small enough and long enough that to be hit by it you need to be CC'd or be a derp and walk into it. so now you're down to 2 dmg spells with any kind of reliability,
you didn't put anything down
So never get into the late game where a teamfight happens.... right

Also I find it hilarious you're making a comparison to syndra.

Veigar Q- dodgeable blockable and its travel time is pretty piss slow and is still on a longer cd than Syndra Q additionally syndra q is full aoe and it cannot be blocked by intervening champs barring shields. Furthermore despite receiving a cd "buff" at level 5 it still has a longer cd than syndra q, is less damage reliable, and all this for a whopping 50 increase to range that he has over her q...absolutely brilliant...

W Veigar has a .25 cast time 1.25 second fall time. If you get hit by it and you aren't cc'd you are a failure. regardless of placement if you see it you can dodge it as long as you aren't cc'd. Cassiopeia's q has a .4 second delay and people can still dodge that one pretty reliably. Now give the nearly 3 times the amount of time plus the cast time to dodge... yeah thats totally landable on anyone competent. Syndra w cast and throw is still pretty quick

E 1 full second delay time with cast time for veigar... its wall is thin as fuck and 61 champions have some kind of dash tristana graves/targeted gap closer i.e. poppy leona or blink that makes it easy as hell to get out of the stun thats not including champions with speed steroids. With boots 2 most champs can walk out from near dead center.... Furthermore the stun rate is very quick that even on the competative level its considered a bit difficult to flash it if you try to straight line engage her.

R Veigar's only reliable damage ability that cannot be blocked or walked away from. At least with Syndra's the ability to dodge is much more skill intensive and even then try dodging a 5 ball scatter the weak... yeah

OyddAWqJ5rMar 3, 20151 votes

Cuz all 2 says is cast W lol. Nothing to say.

That still has nothing to do with bursting
Still nothing
Or position correctly, if you get counter positioned then you got counterplayed and that tends to happen when your opponents have brains
?

As for Syndra that's a nice essay. But I wasn't comparing him to Syndra rather but saying that Syndra also has no need to land any skills vs a squishy and merely has to press R.

But I'd still rather have a Veig on my team than a Syndra. His stun is pretty useful, despite all the moans and complaints it's still one of the best teamfight stuns in the game... on a basic ability, and he deletes 1 person instantly which is always nice.

Chromatic EagleMar 1, 20153 votes

LCS stun mage support.

Mathlete864Mar 2, 20153 votes

I mained veigar b4 the nerfs... and I absolutely ADORED playing as him... it was sooo much fun. Hope you arent matched with Yasuo or Zed and farm Q till you hit 6... keep stalking your prey again, then when the get close to engage, throw out you E W R Q ignite and BOOOM That suckers dead. I agree it had little counterplay but you just need to outsustain in lane and push him out b4 level 6 and its GG

qetzelMar 2, 20152 votes

They have (Meddler has) said that he will get buffs sometime in the next few patches.

Calm down...

Karol ScheiblerMar 2, 20154 votes

Compensation buff, ehh?

His Q damage.. hmm... will be reduced by 1/2, stun dealy increased to 5 sec and ulti buffed to 120 mana

qetzelMar 2, 20152 votes

OR he will actually get buffs. Do you realise that comments like these won't help anything? They just make you come across as petty and mean.

AudiomancyMar 2, 20152 votes

"We're going to compensate Veigar and Mordekaiser, 2 major users of DFG."

Whenever Riot says 'buffs' on any champion that isn't Lee, Zed, Ahri, LeBlanc or Thresh, I've come to expect gutting.

qetzelMar 2, 20151 votes

Or, alternatively, you could accept that something is coming and leave it at that. Why are you here if you don't want any Veigar buffs? Do you just want to complain? At least a (admittedly delayed and possibly partial) solution has been given to you. Why can't you accept it?

AudiomancyMar 2, 20151 votes

Because they will no doubt end up screwing Veigar up even more. Look at Cassiopeia. People complained that the rework put too much power in her E at the cost of her other abilities. What does Riot do? Add more power to her E at the cost of her other abilities.

qetzelMar 2, 20151 votes

OR look at the hundreds of other buffs they have made. Cassiopeia is one example of a champion that was incorrectly buffed, and one of the only examples. I would challenge you to find four more.

On the Cass thing though, I kept up with the Cass threads just before the buffs. The feedback was in favour of the change. Most people said they wanted more poison, and Scruffy got loads of upvotes when they said that their plan was to buff poison damage with each E used - a suggestion made by an ordinary player in one of the Cass threads.

Aside from a revert (which, lets face it, will not happen) What do you want to do to buff Veigar and why. Helpful comments are much better than complaining ones.

AudiomancyMar 3, 20152 votes

OR look at the hundreds of other buffs they have made. Cassiopeia is one example of a champion that was incorrectly buffed, and one of the only examples. I would challenge you to find four more.

Riot isn't exactly in the business of buffing, but I can certainly give you bad examples of previous reworks.

Ahri. Both the one that turned her from a Mage into an Assassin and the one that reversed it. Sona and all her subsequent nerfs. Skarner, until they actually tried to fix him. Gragas. Remember him? Nidalee. AD Nidalee Top. Though now we have Nidalee jungle which is almost as ~~bad~~ fun. Olaf and Eve also both got Veigar'd. Hell, poor Eve got Veigar'd like 3 times.

In fact, the only reworks in recent memory that weren't garbage/loaded with problems were Viktor's and Heimerdinger's. Though Heimer's did have that bug that caused his win rate to skyrocket. There's Rengar's too if you ignore the whole "wow he sucks" to "omg op" thing. Soraka's was a bit of a mixed bag so I'll leave her there.

On the Cass thing though, I kept up with the Cass threads just before the buffs. The feedback was in favour of the change. Most people said they wanted more poison, and Scruffy got loads of upvotes when they said that their plan was to buff poison damage with each E used - a suggestion made by an ordinary player in one of the Cass threads.

I followed the Cass threads too, honey. Almost everyone hated the idea of making Twin Fangs even stronger. I don't even want to know how many posts Ginga made just to ask for some damage in her poisons. Not supplementary power from her E, but actual power in her poisons. Y'know, like an actual poison mage. Turning her into some kind of magical machine gun (especially the same time Azir was released who was supposed to be an 'AP marksman') just wasn't right. As a sidenote, I think people were just happy to know that someone other than Stashu was working on that thing.

Aside from a revert (which, lets face it, will not happen) What do you want to do to buff Veigar and why. Helpful comments are much better than complaining ones.

Oh, I don't know, how about a usable stun? Some sort of defense for the immobile squishy burst mage? Maybe for damage to not be taken out of his kit as compensation for...having damage taken out of his kit? If Riot are keeping the 0.75s delay (and I'm really hoping they're smarter than that) I would at least like for there to be some point to his W. Without Event Horizon's lockdown, that thing is barely glorified waveclear.

/rant

qetzelMar 3, 20151 votes

Were any of those examples that I asked for? No. Did a member of Riot say that there were plans to buff any of them? No, unless you count a follow up on the Skarner rework, which was done eventually. Meddler has said Veigar will get further changes.

Secondly, you must have read different comments to me. Most people were happy with the proposed change.

Thirdly, CONSTRUCTIVE BIT! We can't give Veigar a long ranged effectively point and click stun for reasons stated several times. How would you go about giving him more defensive power without causing a similar problem that the old stun caused?

AbrahamBaconhamMar 2, 20152 votes

I don't care what you think of the Veigar changes, if four other champions and multiple minions are between you and your target, then that's just bad positioning/timing on your part and you shouldn't deserve to Q them in the first place.

Ser SafirMar 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I don't care what you think of the Veigar changes, if four other champions and multiple minions are between you and your target, then that's just bad positioning/timing on your part and you shouldn't deserve to Q them in the first place.

Yeah, cuz during the laning phase it's not suspicious in the slightest to notice ur lane opponent walk to the side of all the cs.

And veig is a pretty mobile safe champ so walking to the backside of the enemy team to stun and properly position for a q to land is a safe and smart thing to do.

Saint ArcherMar 2, 20151 votes

no, you use your E when you WILL land it, follow up with W for high burst damage, actually land your Q because you can aim basic skillshots, and hit R because delete. he's not only a burst mage, but he's an anti-mage. land a W without stun and you can follow up with an EQR for a guaranteed kill on a mage.

BasidiomycotaMar 2, 20151 votes

its called counter play do you just want someone to jump on you and kill you like talon, kat, vi, le blanc, akali, zed ect......... not that he has no stun he has no dmg now u can counter him because he cant do anything anymore