Let's never add true damage as a core aspect to future kits again

SwapShadows·Sep 21, 2015·178 votes·6,310 views

I dont think any good comes from being unable to itemize against something.

145 Comments

Starfish HSep 21, 201543 votes

True damage to me is iffy. Chogath His true damage is honestly a good example of how it should be done (although they do need to nerf the ratios of his kit) Darius Same thing as Cho'Gath's except it's a lot harder to use and tricky to be able to reset Ahri Honestly I don't know. It's a pain in the Ashe but it's easily dodgeable and is just an added bonus Garen Now that Villian is finally changed it is okay as he scales with missing health which is why his ult does a lot, it's supposed to be an execute. Gangplank Meh. Honestly I have never seen anyone use it to its full potential yet. Twitch HAHAHAHA No. Okay early, horrible late. MasterYi It's fine it's just that Sated made it even more broken now Irelia Honestly I feel like her kit needs to be looked at. It's overloaded IMO and should definetly be tweaked here and there. Fiora Vayne Here is where it gets complicated. I feel like Fiora's should be toned down and scale with levels and not AD. Vayne's should scale with BONUS health true damage instead of Max.

Dar RaksadaSep 21, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Starfish H,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UXPLLzWV,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-09-21T06:32:09.650+0000)

True damage to me is iffy. His true damage is honestly a good example of how it should be done (although they do need to nerf the ratios of his kit) Same thing as Cho'Gath's except it's a lot harder to use and tricky to be able to reset Honestly I don't know. It's a pain in the but it's easily dodgeable and is just an added bonus Now that Villian is finally changed it is okay as he scales with missing health which is why his ult does a lot, it's supposed to be an execute. Meh. Honestly I have never seen anyone use it to its full potential yet. HAHAHAHA No. Okay early, horrible late. It's fine it's just that Sated made it even more broken now Honestly I feel like her kit needs to be looked at. It's overloaded IMO and should definetly be tweaked here and there. Here is where it gets complicated. I feel like Fiora's should be toned down and scale with levels and not AD. Vayne's should scale with BONUS health true damage instead of Max.

if fiora's true damage scaled with level she'd either be build bruiser/tank or she'd be pretty useless depending on how strong they make it.

Starfish HSep 21, 20152 votes

You can't really make percentage max health damage useless. It'll give you a much more of an opening early game to duel her instead of making her okay early but a god late.

NoobShotBGSep 21, 20153 votes

You can't really make percentage max health damage useless.

Yes you can, you can make anything useless if you make the numbers low enough. Are we going to pretend that pre hot fix Fiora with her terrible numbers didn't exist?

iamthegoatofwarSep 21, 20152 votes

I played new fiora a few times before the hotfix...she was still extremely strong. She did not need the hot fix to make her stronger. Kids just had to understand how her passive worked. But I think riot did the hotfix to get project skins to sell.

NoobShotBGSep 21, 20151 votes

I played new fiora a few times before the hotfix

You actually didn't, at least on this account. OP.GG shows no Fiora games in your history for at least two months.

This is obviously a smurf account, can't use my main on the boards at the moment thanks to a weird bug.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/player/oce/LankPants As you can see, no level, needs 7 to post.

http://oce.op.gg/summoner/userName=lankpants I've played a lot of Fiora since the rework, I can tell you she was utter garbage when she was released. The main thing that made her playable was the CD drop on Q.

iamthegoatofwarSep 21, 20151 votes

errr yes I did play a game as her on this one? Also less than 2 months ago....

NoobShotBGSep 21, 20151 votes

errr yes I did play a game as her on this one?

OP.GG doesn't show any, it's not perfect though so it could easily miss a game.

But either way a game or a few games is a terrible sample size. There's one game where I got a 3/0/5 perfect game as pre hot fix Fiora, that doesn't make her good, in fact I'm fairly sure I got carried super hard that game and just got kills and assists off of my jungle and mid.

She just didn't have an impact on the game before the rework, I could come out of lane 5/0, if my team wasn't also crushing the game it didn't matter.

Using another example from my history I went 7/1/8 and couldn't impact the game in any meaningful way. As any other top lane with that sort of score I would have came close to single handedly winning that game, as Fiora I couldn't even make it close.

Yes the hot fix was too much, but saying she was relevant, let alone strong before it is just wrong.

MyrddinSep 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Using another example from my history I went 7/1/8 and couldn't impact the game in any meaningful way. As any other top lane with that sort of score I would have came close to single handedly winning that game, as Fiora I couldn't even make it close.

Aatrox

HEXXEN9xSep 21, 201522 votes

twitches true damage is countered by a health potion :p

WolfeurSep 21, 201550 votes

Twitch's true damage is countered by your base HP5...

qetzelSep 21, 20151 votes

Anything of equal damage that doesn't kill you is countered by your base HP5...

Random made up numbers to explain it: Enemies HP5 = 10 50 true damage in one burst. Total health change after 5 seconds assuming the target doesn't die = 50 - 10 = 40 50 true damage over 5 seconds. Total health change after 5 seconds = 50 - 10 = 40

WolfeurSep 21, 201533 votes

It's...a joke...

CindikleSep 22, 20156 votes

Twitches true damage is countered by standing near a Heimerdinger.

NoobShotBGSep 21, 20156 votes

I feel like Fiora's should be toned down and scale with levels and not AD.

If that happened people would build her item 3078 item 3143 item 3065 item 3026 item 3748 item 3047 or some bullshit like that. Having to build AD on Fiora is actually a disadvantage.

Starfish HSep 21, 20154 votes

Actually she is rewarded for building AD. Her stupid AOE ult heal is clearly an example of that.

NoobShotBGSep 21, 201510 votes

If she was able to build straight tank and still deal damage she'd still be stronger, even if her heal was weaker. The effective heal she'd get would be similar since it's multiplied by her resists and SV.

EirixotoSep 21, 20155 votes

Fiora and Vayne , arguably Garen , is just stupid as fuck.

True damage scaling on the enemies max hp? Like, really? I mean, against AD you can build armor to counter it, against true damage you can build HP to kinda counter it, but when the enemy gets more damage the more items you build... I don't know man, I've thought that is a retarded concept from I started playing this game, and the fact that Riot added it on yet another champion is beyond me.

I have nothing against true damage itself. Its just the % max HP true damage.

EndlessSorcererSep 21, 20155 votes

Velkoz How did you forget the good one?

Starfish HSep 21, 20158 votes

Because he's already so good he doesn't even need to be talked about.

BoxOfDOGSep 21, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Starfish H,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UXPLLzWV,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-09-21T06:32:09.650+0000) HAHAHAHA No. Okay early, horrible late.

I think you got it backwards bub.

I can't even count how many kills I've secured, and how many times I've died to his true damage poison in the late game. It's pretty meh early game and makes your csing hard from time to time. In the late game it has pretty invisible damage, which is definitely a bonus.

Red RyuSep 21, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Starfish H,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UXPLLzWV,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-09-21T06:32:09.650+0000)

True damage to me is iffy. His true damage is honestly a good example of how it should be done (although they do need to nerf the ratios of his kit) Same thing as Cho'Gath's except it's a lot harder to use and tricky to be able to reset Honestly I don't know. It's a pain in the but it's easily dodgeable and is just an added bonus Now that Villian is finally changed it is okay as he scales with missing health which is why his ult does a lot, it's supposed to be an execute. Meh. Honestly I have never seen anyone use it to its full potential yet. HAHAHAHA No. Okay early, horrible late. It's fine it's just that Sated made it even more broken now Honestly I feel like her kit needs to be looked at. It's overloaded IMO and should definetly be tweaked here and there. Here is where it gets complicated. I feel like Fiora's should be toned down and scale with levels and not AD. Vayne's should scale with BONUS health true damage instead of Max.

Fiora no, the point of her building AD for her passive is the trade off so she does not just build straight tank with insane bases.

Vayne...ok I think there is merit to that one.

LionelLeonSep 21, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Starfish H,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UXPLLzWV,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-09-21T06:32:09.650+0000)

True damage to me is iffy. His true damage is honestly a good example of how it should be done (although they do need to nerf the ratios of his kit) Same thing as Cho'Gath's except it's a lot harder to use and tricky to be able to reset Honestly I don't know. It's a pain in the but it's easily dodgeable and is just an added bonus Now that Villian is finally changed it is okay as he scales with missing health which is why his ult does a lot, it's supposed to be an execute. Meh. Honestly I have never seen anyone use it to its full potential yet. HAHAHAHA No. Okay early, horrible late. It's fine it's just that Sated made it even more broken now Honestly I feel like her kit needs to be looked at. It's overloaded IMO and should definetly be tweaked here and there. Here is where it gets complicated. I feel like Fiora's should be toned down and scale with levels and not AD. Vayne's should scale with BONUS health true damage instead of Max.

uh, the only reason she is squishy is because she needs to build AD to make her true damage relevent. having true damage scale with level will just kill off Full AD fiora and maker bruiser/ full tank fiora more popular (yes they are a thing)

GorgannanSep 22, 20152 votes

Cho needs ratio nerfs?

Uh....?

Starfish HSep 22, 20155 votes

Yes he does. 100% on Q with a base damage of 300 as well as an AOE knock up and slow 70% on W that silences for 2.5 seconds in an AOE while having a very buggy hitbox His E his alright. And his ult 70% scaling of TRUE DAMAGE with a base amount of 650 He needs to be toned down a bit.

StellafreyjaSep 21, 201525 votes

You can itemize against true damage. The way to counter true damage is by building Health.

%Max Health True Damage on the other hand...

SquidblimpSep 21, 201524 votes

DISCLAIMER: I'm not denying that Fiora and Vayne are a bit overtuned right now.

You aren't supposed to counterbuild true damage as much as you're supposed to counterplay it. Most forms of true damage have counterplay. Even point-and-click true damage requires close proximity. Generally, true damage has to be worked for in some way or another, whether Vel'Koz has to land consecutive skills, or Fiora has to hit your vital, or Garen has to target the Villain, or Yi and Vayne have to farm to get items that give them the attack speed to reliably proc the true damage, or Cho has to land his Q so he can get close enough to ult you, or Olaf has to land axes to gapclose to you to get his true damage off, etc. etc. etc.

The EcdysiastSep 21, 20152 votes

The problem with that is:

Vayne is ranged. Darius has a pull, while both his and Garen's ultimate have far higher range than an Axe or Sword should. Fiora has a slow and a dash. Yi and Irelia only have to auto attack. Olaf is going to be in range for his E anyway, or he's not going to be in the game at all.

You NEED to counterpick these, or there's no way possible to counter play them. The only way you're going to be out of range for any of them is by being extremely mobile and high-ranged.

The only example that's even remotely difficult to use is Vel'koz, who actually has to land skillshots and has no way of chasing the opponent.

AnidanSep 21, 201516 votes

You mean... they were given methods of accessing their true damage without relying on a complete enemy fuck-up? That sounds like what the boards want for most champions. I like how it's only different when it's True Damage, despite the fact that sometimes that champion is just meant to kill your tank, and that's called balance: because if a Tank could build against literally everyone then... well, someone would eventually call out for a tank-buster anyway.

DecritSep 21, 20152 votes

who do you gotta call?

TANKBUSTERS

tanananana... ok i stop it

AbodyHUN666Sep 21, 20151 votes

Of course you have to adapt your picks to the enemy but there are ways to deal with these besides mobility. Vayne has to hit a target 3 times before switching focus, so she is punished when she fishes an AA on a carry while hitting the tank in her face. Darius can still be kited, but most carries who don't outrange him have disengage. Also focus on building health. Fiora is still paper and has no ranged waveclear. Yi is the same. Irelia is a bit problematic, but not due to her true damage, but more because of how little counterplay she has when she is in good hands. Olaf is as you said a feast or famine champion with a broken kit, I would consider his ult more problematic than his E, since his ult holds him back from being good. Most of the strong true damage champs are strong due to their numbers being high, or have problematic abilities with little counterplay, true damage is not the only problem with them.

The Yetii RiderSep 21, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Of course you have to adapt your picks to the enemy but there are ways to deal with these besides mobility. Vayne has to hit a target 3 times before switching focus, so she is punished when she fishes an AA on a carry while hitting the tank in her face. Darius can still be kited, but most carries who don't outrange him have disengage. Also focus on building health. Fiora is still paper and has no ranged waveclear. Yi is the same. Irelia is a bit problematic, but not due to her true damage, but more because of how little counterplay she has when she is in good hands. Olaf is as you said a feast or famine champion with a broken kit, I would consider his ult more problematic than his E, since his ult holds him back from being good. Most of the strong true damage champs are strong due to their numbers being high, or have problematic abilities with little counterplay, true damage is not the only problem with them.

"Yi is paper" - Someone hasn't been watching Cowsep.

The current best Yi build is Devourer, Merc Treads, BoRK, Dead Man's Plate, Titanic Hydra, and Sterak's Gage. True damage, % enemy health damage, % your health damage, and magic damage on-hit with tons of move speed, tenacity and slow immunity, a 30% max health shield and % damage reduction.

Yi is not paper.

AbodyHUN666Sep 23, 20152 votes

Wow I might try that build on him. It might also fix his other weaknesses like the lack of waveclear.

AtheosisXSep 21, 201515 votes

True damage is okay in moderation. Percent-based damage is okay in moderation. Combining the two is just not something Riot should've ever done.

thebloody7Sep 21, 201515 votes

you mean %hp true dmg because ordinary true damage has have counter

Snowball4uSep 21, 20155 votes

But then champions wouldnt be interesting.

SwapShadowsSep 21, 201534 votes

{quoted}

But then champions wouldnt be interesting.

if fiora doing almost 2k instant true damage on top of her high AD damage is interesting then call me boring.

Snowball4uSep 21, 20155 votes

{quoted}

if fiora doing almost 2k instant true damage on top of her high AD damage is interesting then call me boring.

Play singed, malphite, irelia.

There are a lot of things to beat her.

Stop going 0/ Over 9000 against her in lane and maybe she wont do 2k damage with true damage or w.e u just said lel

Doctor JarvisSep 21, 201522 votes

Counter picking is not counter playing. Sure you can play safe against %max health true damage but the fact that, if a fight starts you just have to accept a certain percentage of your max health doesn't exist is dumb.

AnidanSep 21, 201512 votes

I can't think of anyone that uses %max hp true damage that isn't squishy besides Garen against a villain. And if we're talking about duels... well, most of the people with this damage type were built to be duelists, incidentally, so why are you walking into a duel against them?

Lady HammerlockSep 21, 20155 votes

Fiora the grand duelist nobody reads titles ;-;

A Miss FortuneSep 21, 20152 votes

Vayne hello

LaceUp23Sep 21, 20152 votes

Because people don't want to play the strategy type of League anymore. They want to play smite.

A Miss FortuneSep 21, 20153 votes

Isn't Fiora a late game hypercarry now though? You don't have to feed her for her to deal 1,000+ true damage to every individual person of your team.

FistOfSharkieshaSep 21, 20152 votes

Additionally she can be effective as a bruiser now, with her CC, teamfight oriented ult, and true damage.

EDIT: To clarify I meant built as a bruiser. Slap Hydra and triforce on her then build however many defensive items are necessary to keep you alive while teamfighting. You don't rush IE on her like you're an ADC with melee range anymore.

Ramza ParadiseSep 21, 20154 votes

Urgot Rework!

Passive: Urgot now reduces enemy true damage by 12% per basic attack and deals an additional 12% of enemy's current health as true damage, increasing to 112% based on missing true damage health

Q: Fires a missile dealing true damage

W: Gives you a scaling true damage shield that does true damage and stops incoming true damage

E: Fires another missile dealing true damage

R: Switches place with a minion allowing them to deal true damage

ahferroin7Sep 21, 20154 votes

True damage is EASY to itemize against, you just stack health for heaven's sake! As for the %HP true damage, Vayne is really the only issue there (everyone else with it has really good counter-play), whereas the only counter-play for vayne is either not being hit, or slowing her attack speed.

U Just Got SlainSep 22, 20152 votes

See if you look at Vel'Koz, true damage is perfectly laced into his kit. His kit has a lot of counterplay, and all of his abilities need to actually hit for the passive to even go off. Well, at least 2, all of which are skill shots. So here true damage fits perfectly and allows him to have a really nice mix.

SwapShadowsSep 22, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=U Just Got Slain,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UXPLLzWV,comment-id=002c,timestamp=2015-09-22T00:47:36.387+0000)

See if you look at Vel'Koz, true damage is perfectly laced into his kit. His kit has a lot of counterplay, and all of his abilities need to actually hit for the passive to even go off. Well, at least 2, all of which are skill shots. So here true damage fits perfectly and allows him to have a really nice mix.

vel koz is the epitome of balanced.