But i wonder why people prefer complain about yasuo that has 15% pick rate and 50% win rate in plat+
While You don't see A SINGLE thread about yi
i came to the conclusion that people prefer being stat-checked by yi rather than dodging yasuo tornado and use his window of power that is his passive (once triggered=goodbye)
but what do i know? i'm just a filthy Janna player
-gH
Best princess EU20 votesjanna uses wind, so obviously you're biased
kappapride
Fondling Gems11 votesGuessing it is because Yasuo is a generalist pick while Yi is picked intelligently. Yi is a super hard carry, however he takes time to scale and gets shut down incredibly hard by any CC. As such he gets picked less often but in more specific situations, such as when the enemy team is lacking in CC and early game pressure. It leaves a situation of if Yi is winning it is because you didn't build a team to counter him or champions like him. You are pretty much asking to get stomped by a Yi.
That is the whole point of counterpicking. People complain about Yasuo more because a couple reasons.
One: Yasuo is a bigger problem at low elo, and the vast majority of players (and as such boards posters) are bronze/silver. Two: Yasuo is a more generalist pick. You can pretty much always pick him and do well. Something like Yi is dependent on being able to counter the enemy comp.
It is like complaining about your team getting destroyed by a heavy tank team when you had nothing but mages. People understand that they fucked up in their pick phase and it is on them, not the champion being crazy.
It is like how J4 was the highest winrate top laner a couple patches before lethality. He wasn't a good pick, but he was a really good counterpick so his winrate really spiked up. People also weren't complaining because they understand that they got counterpicked. Would you complain that Teemo is OP when you picked a Nasus and suddenly find that you can't Q minions? No, because he isn't. You just got counterpicked.
chipndip13 votesYi just scales to killing almost everyone in the game solo. Yi isn't picked intelligently. He just hard carries the fuck out of games by landing items and right clicking (with occasional Alpha Strikes).
Yasuo actually has to try to carry unless he's fed horrendously.
Fondling Gems2 votesYeah that is kinda the point. He is a consistent champion who relies on items and levels to function well. He provides consistency by saying he WILL melt just about anyone late game if he can reach it.
It is honestly a solid path to push him down IMO. Hypercarries exist because their counterplay is either building to lock them down more than their team can protect them or go for early champs that WILL lose to him late in the effort that you can win before he hits that late game.
The whole point of hypercarries is to give enemies two options to deal with them. Either build to disable them or try to win before the ticking time bomb goes off. There are two clear avenues of counterplay and if you don't succeed they are going to rip you limb from limb because that is what they are designed to do. Doing that consistently is what makes them Hypercarries. If they didn't do damage consistently then they would be shitty hypercarries because there would be no real reason to pick them. If they aren't providing a consistent heavy damage output locked behind item/level powergates they aren't doing their job.
chipndip12 votesThat isn't the point of being an "intelligent pick", though.
Yasuo is the same type of thing Yi is: A late game scaling melee hyper carry that's capable of multi-man killing on his own...only difference is that he's better designed from a game play stand point. He can potentially do more than other carries at the cost of being very easy to force into a slump or a full on feeding frenzy. Still, because of how much Yasuo's capable of doing, everyone cries about Yasuo. Meanwhile Yi can quite literally wait for a time stamp and 1v2 or 1v3 your team solo, blowing multiple sums and ults just to deal with him, and no one cares because he just waits until that point, picking up scavenger kills if he can, rather than having the tools to actively get himself there.
In other words: People are blatantly biased against Yasuo because he's stylish and shit, and no one cares about Yi unless he's a huge balancing concern because all he does is janitor duty until its time to clean up the entire game rather than a few kills. It's blatant hypocrisy.
Fondling Gems1 votesSo I think one thing you aren't seeing is that Yasuo trades some of his consistent damage and reliability for self defense tools. Yi is hard countered by knockups, knockbacks, and stuns. This is because his only defensive tool is canceled by them.
Yasuo gets a lot of defensive options in return for a less consistent damage output. Yi trades his self defense tools in return for more consistent damage output. Hard CC shuts him down far harder than it does to just about any other hypercarry due to him being melee and it interrupting his channel.
Just saying you honestly sound pretty biased here too. Yi can really only 1v2/1v3 kill people if they don't have the CC to counter him. If they do then he is far more worthless than a yasuo.
Ultimately there are champions that are stronger late game. It is a reasonable playstyle that a number of champions follow. Their purpose is to pressure the enemy team by forcing them to either act early or focus on countering them. They apply pressure just like any other champion, and they pressure by focusing on getting stronger.
If you hadn't noticed the vast majority of hypercarries are reset champions. Trist, Jinx, Kat, Yi, and Kha to a lesser extent. The counterplay to them is just the same as other champions. Either pick to shut them down or pick a team that is strong when they are weak. For them that can mean picking early game champions just like how into early champions you grab waveclear and late game champs to outscale them.
chipndip11 votesWhat you're telling me: Yasuo gets a bunch of defensive mechanics like shields and projectile-cancelling walls and he's STILL has comparable stats (if not a smudge worse) than Yi, but I'm biased because I'm calling out Yi for what he is, which is a face-rolling hyper carry that demands less mechanics than other melee hyper carry skirmishers for way more reward than any of them?
Like, you complain that "Anyone can just cc Yi", but anyone can just cc Yasuo, too. If you complain that Yasuo can press W, well Yi can use Q on a lower cd than Yasuo. Yi's ult also gives him WAY more mobility for hawking down foes and dodging skill shots than nearly anyone in the game due to how potent that speed boost is and how long it lasts, so that ass-blasts Yasuo's mobility, which is only relevant when there's enemies to dash through nearby. Yasuo gets a few more tools in the form of projectiles and knock-ups, but Yi gets ABSURD dps as compensation. At that point, the only person 1v1'ing Yi and winning, if anyone, is Kayle...maybe Tryndamere or Jax. That's it. Anyone else and you're toast. Yi's a nightmare when he's on items.
As a side note: So if you're trying to defend Yi with this logic of "pick shit to shut them down", why complain about Yasuo in the first place? They're the same class of champion, so Yasuo's strength of having a few innate defensive tools and hyper-carrying is the same as Yi's, and the solution for dealing with him is, once again, the same as Yi's.
Other side note: Trist has long been adjusted to being a mid-game pick, rather than a late game pick. She isn't a hyper carry anymore. Khaz isn't a hyper carry either. Kat isn't either.
Fondling Gems1 votesOk so lets get a couple things straight here because I feel like misunderstanding has cropped up.
Things that a hyper carry needs:
Damage/Kill pressure. This is pretty obvious, if they can't kill things they can't carry.
A tool that lets them keep going to kill multiple enemies. This is core because a hyper carry has to be able to threaten multiple enemies late game. We can see this is all the classic carries in the form of resets/jinx passive and a similar form in Yasuo and Kassadin with their E/R respectively that lets them keep going from one enemy to the next.
Clear counterplay that exists beyond just outfighting them, because they are meant to be a hyper carry which means that no one should be able to solo them except maybe another hypercarry late game. Hypercarries have to be at the highest rung on the killing stuff graph, because that is pretty much all they offer. This counterplay thus has to either lie in building a team that is able to shut them down with hard cc late game, or a team that is able to win before they can scale up. Another option is splitpush but this is hard with a champion that you don't want to be caught alone with. Still viable though, but more of a last ditch strat if you don't meet one of the first two counterplay options.
Hypercarries of course vary, otherwise they would all be the same. Currently we are looking at Yi and Yasuo. Yasuo is probably one of the least hypercarry of the hypercarry champions. This is due to the fact that he gives up quite a bit of late game power in return for early-mid game power. 10-25% less crit damage is a big late game hit.
Yasuo also has the most defensive tools of any hypercarry. There is a big difference between a .5 or so dodge frame and a 3.75 second duration projectile blocker which can block cc and damage. He also comes with a build in shield and a shield refresh.
Lastly Yasuo has the best CC of any hypercarry.
Lets look at Yi. Similar to most hypercarries like Jinx and Trist he has very consistent damage. Like them both he is very squishy and lacks great defensive tools. Like them both he also gets shut down very hard by specific counter picks.
Now lets look at some other things. He is melee, but only has one gap closer. This is the reason for his very high damage, because he is meant to be kited with hard CC. He is very predictable, in fact after using the only ability he has to avoid CC (which he will always be in range of due to his melee nature) you know exactly where he is going to land.
One last thing. I don't complain about Yasuo. At most I have called him annoying to lane against or made joke comments in memes and games. I really don't mind laning into yasuo, in fact I prefer it over many other lanes simply because I know it so well by now due to his popularity.
I am calling you biased because you are reacting to Yi in the exact same way that all the people you seem to get angry over for being biased about Yasuo.
I don't care about either one. I am the unbiased one because you act no differently from the Yasuo haters that you call biased, which makes you biased too.
I simply explained why Yasuo gets more hate than Yi by explaining that Yi is easier to shut down than a Yasuo. Due to his pretty simply and linear kit that means that the solution to him is also quite simple and linear. As such most people realize that if they got stomped by a Yi it is because they made a very simple and basic mistake in their picking choices which is part of the game.
Compare that to Yasuo who has many more tools, and thus options, the solution isn't as simple. Most CC in the game doesn't get through his windwall, and his windwall turns his melee nature into a ranged scenario where it is hard to use range against him because you have to circle around and he can be right next to you without you being able to attack back, which is very similar to a ranged champ fighting a melee one.
This negates a lot of his melee nature and makes it harder for people to figure out how to deal with him. In that scenario people get frustrated. If your team dies to a Yi is either means you had no coordination whatsoever or you didn't have two hard CC abilities on your team. One to blow his Q, one to stun him afterwards so your team can kill the squishy Yi.
MissingKayo10 votesOn the other hand, Yi doesn't even become a threat till level 6, while Yasuo becomes a threat at level 2. Yi also doesn't really do anything meaningful until around at least 3-4 full items excluding boots. Yasuo needs only 1 to start being a monster.
Yi also dies if you CC him for even a split second and has no way to avoid said CC outside of hopefully Qing just as it happens. Yasuo has his shield to tank damage regardless if he's CC'd, his windwall, his E to dodge altogether, and his tornado knockup can effectively nullify CC by CCing the enemy at the same time so they can't do anything with the Yasuo they just CC'd.
RenownedWheat423 votes"If you look at worst-case-scenario Yi versus best-case-scenario Yasuo, you see why Yi isn't a problem."
MissingKayo4 votesWhat?
I literally described the same situation for both.
Yi isn't dangerous till level 6. Yasuo is dangerous starting from level 2. Yi needs 3-4 full items to be carry-level. Yasuo needs 1. Yi has almost no way to avoid CC and dies in a split second to it. Yasuo has 2 different ways to avoid the CC altogether, and still has 2 more ways to survive even if he does get CC'd.
Flawless Fetus4 votesBut Yi deals way more damage than Yas at level 2... Yi only needs one as well. He won't one shot you with only one item, but neither will Yas. Lol. Yi has one way to dodge CC. Yas has one way to block CC. They're pretty even there. Yas has a shield, pretty good. Yi has a skill that turns him into a healing tank. They are used in different scenarios, but let's not pretend Yi immediately dies once cc'd. Lol.
Commando Yi2 votes[{quoted}](name=Blended Fetus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rQb9F3yE,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-11T19:33:17.630+0000)
But Yi deals way more damage than Yas at level 2... Yi only needs one as well. He won't one shot you with only one item, but neither will Yas. Lol. Yi has one way to dodge CC. Yas has one way to block CC. They're pretty even there. Yas has a shield, pretty good. Yi has a skill that turns him into a healing tank. They are used in different scenarios, but let's not pretend Yi immediately dies once cc'd. Lol.
why do you believe that an ability that can nullify ranged abilities and ranged auto attacks in team fights is on par with an untergetability ability?
Flawless Fetus1 votesBecause he seemed to be talking about a duel, not a teamfight. Windwall is definitely a better teamfight option.
Ahristocats7 votesYi can solo kill you with one item and lvl 6, what exactly are you talking about?
and Yi is a threat after lvl 3+ double buff, maybe not in 1v1 but he dashes and then keep applying red buff combined with his E it does a lot of damage in early game to kill in a gank
i'm not saying yi is broken (or maybe he is) but he is strong, and satistically stronger than yasuo with less counterplay and less skill cap.
and Yi is as hard to peel as Yasuo he goes invulnerable to dodge CCs and cannot be slowed, while dealing WAY WAY more damage than yasuo, both in burst and DPS
-gH
MissingKayo4 votesOnly if you're completely, ridiculously out of position and pushed way too far up.
Yi has less options to counterplay with because all he needs is to autoattack to death and doesn't have anything else like Yasuo's knockup-ultimate combo thing. And he has a lower skill FLOOR because that's all he needs to do. He has a high skill CAP. On the other hand, there is still multiple options to counterplay him with, and unlike Yasuo, any one of those options is instant death for Yi.
Yasuo has more things to counterplay him with because he has more to his kit that he needs to do because he can't just run in and autoattack people to death 1v5. On the other hand, each of those options is less effective because he has multiple mitigation mechanics and tools.
Ahristocats1 votesYi has less options to counterplay with because all he needs is to autoattack to death and doesn't have anything else like Yasuo's knockup-ultimate combo thing. And he has a lower skill FLOOR because that's all he needs to do. He has a high skill CAP. On the other hand, there is still multiple options to counterplay him with, and unlike Yasuo, any one of those options is instant death for Yi.
there is no way to outplay yi, just hope that he has less items than you Yasuo has knock ups and other shit because he has less damage than yi
you have no idea what yi can do, his double strike that applies both his true damage and on-hit effect (also crit) twice, his Q that can crit removing 1/2 of a squishy hp, his E that ends up shreding any tank and his bonus attack speed
Yasuo has more things to counterplay him with because he has more to his kit that he needs to do because he can't just run in and autoattack people to death 1v5. On the other hand, each of those options is less effective because he has multiple mitigation mechanics and tools.
he has multiple mitigation mechanics, and end up with a balanced win rate unlike yi? this has to be the topkek of the centuary
yi is HARD COUNTERED by people, without cc you just lost because of meditation that stack his passive and gives 70% damage reduction (while healing). Yasuo can be destroyed even without CC Yi can't lose in 1v1, while yasuo can
MissingKayo3 votesI have both Mastery 5 on Yi and Yasuo. Both of them can autoattack people to death in a 1v1 easily.
A 1% winrate difference makes someone unbalanced? If you don't have hard CC on a team, you deserve to lose because that's a fucking idiotic decision to make. And how would you destroy Yasuo without CC, pray tell?
Ahristocats2 votesI have both Mastery 5 on Yi and Yasuo.
k
Both of them can autoattack people to death in a 1v1 easily.
without armor pen from ult? i hardly imagine that meanwhile yi presses one spell and get true damage
A 1% winrate difference makes someone unbalanced?
it does, especially if you complain about one and not the other when yi is way more cancer
If you don't have hard CC on a team, you deserve to lose because that's a fucking idiotic decision to make. And how would you destroy Yasuo without CC, pray tell?
what exactly CC is going to do against yasuo? it doesn't do anything special meanwhile yi gets 70% damage reduction if it's not stopped, that's the definition of a fcking cancer champion that forces you to take something you need to destroy him what if your hard cc dude is dead? well you lost the fight
nothing of this happens against yasuo, all you need to do is play around windwall that moves forward+dodge tornado+go backward if he wants to E+Q because E goes through people if they're in melee making him unable to E+Q
but downvote me despite all those facts, i love it
MissingKayo6 votesYasuo gets 100% crit with two items and his Q CD goes down with bonus attack speed. You don't need true damage when you're killing a squishy and you blitz them with autoattacks, whether you're Yi or Yasuo. They have next to no meaningful armor anyways.
Mmk.
It makes him stop moving around like a rabbit on cocaine so you can actually hit and kill him. Any sort of CC interrupts W, and any sort of CC kills Yi.
If you only have literally one champion with hard CC, you still deserve to lose.
I don't think you see how Yasuo forces much more to be done to stop him than Yi. Yasuo can still survive potentially even after being CC'd, and has multiple ways to easily avoid it, and forces the enemy team to play by his terms. All you need to do with Yi is wait for him to Q, CC him, and then kill him in 0.5 seconds flat.
Yes, I will downvote you for being wrong so others do not get misinformed. Thanks for encouraging me.
Ahristocats1 votesYes, I will downvote you for being wrong so others do not get misinformed. Thanks for encouraging me.
i literally told you above all the facts about yasuo, and you call me misinformed when you're the freaking ignorant that ignored everything?
black list is sure nice, without this feature i would have left the board since a long time, especially when people tell me that yasuo deals more damage than yi
Edge of Daybreak1 votesAh I love everything about this thread because it speaks volumes about the state of boards. Yasuo gets upvotes for complaints so that's why you constantly see threads about him. No one cares about yi much in comparison.
Yeah you claim to post facts but do facts matter when someone is trying to sell their rhetoric? You can post literally nothing but facts in any conversation but you will be the one who is wrong depending on which side of the circlejerk you are on. Don't believe me? Every time someone post an inaccurate statement that you can show is factually wrong in a champion "discussion thread" and chances are you will be downvoted and declared wrong or a hater almost every time. I've had many a sona thread in my time and it's basically just that. hell some of my largest downvote pools have been stating numbers from items and kits.
TheSingularity1 votesSo, exactly how many accounts are you gonna down vote me with because ur too lazy to read? Sigh so immature. Like a kid sooking because someone called him a naughty word
Edge of Daybreak1 votesSomeone thinks they matter way more than they actually do. Only have one account but you keep on stalking my profile I guess :D
Commando Yi1 votes[{quoted}](name=gh God,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rQb9F3yE,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2017-04-11T18:21:37.272+0000)
Yi can solo kill you with one item and lvl 6, what exactly are you talking about?
and Yi is a threat after lvl 3+ double buff, maybe not in 1v1 but he dashes and then keep applying red buff combined with his E it does a lot of damage in early game to kill in a gank
i'm not saying yi is broken (or maybe he is) but he is strong, and satistically stronger than yasuo with less counterplay and less skill cap.
and Yi is as hard to peel as Yasuo he goes invulnerable to dodge CCs and cannot be slowed, while dealing WAY WAY more damage than yasuo, both in burst and DPS
-gH
amumu's far stronger if you wanna go by stats, is amumu op?
Ahristocats1 votesif you read carefuly, i said that yi might not be broken, but at least he's stronger than yasuo
chipndip11 votesYasuo needs like 2 items to get out of hand if we're being honest. Holistically speaking, anyway. Yi kinda needs like 3.
MissingKayo1 votesHe can destroy a team easily with just PD.
chipndip11 votesYeah...bad ones...
vOmvbrawfU6 votesPSA: Pick rate says nothing about player experience on a champion.
Ahristocats9 voteswait you want to keep going? sure
master yi win rate after 80 games: 57.5% yasuo win rate after 80 games: 56.5%
all those stats from leagueofgraph
SlashStriker5 votesI personally do not understand what is the complain about a champions that auto attack you at melee range without utility and cc
Yi got 51% win rate for 1 month and has 8.7% pick rate according to champion.gg
Janna has 53% win rate for over 1 year, top tier support pick at all tiers and has 15% pick rate putting her at 8 place of most picked champions
chipndip11 votesBut Janna doesn't DO MASSIVE DAMAGE so it's perfectly fine and she's a great champion.
SlashStriker1 votesBut Janna doesn't DO MASSIVE DAMAGE so it's perfectly fine and she's a great champion.
what do you expect from a champion that the only thing he does is damage?
chipndip11 votesNerfs.
zarxus12341 votesI personally do not understand what is the complain about a champions that auto attack you at melee range without utility and cc
Yi got 51% win rate for 1 month and has 8.7% pick rate according to champion.gg
Janna has 53% win rate for over 1 year, top tier support pick at all tiers and has 15% pick rate putting her at 8 place of most picked champions
janna doesnt 1v5
never seen a smurf janna 1v5 a game.
Lauchmelder5 votesTo be fair, I can shut down Yi with CC. Yasuo's inner Trump won't let me do the same.
But the only thing I hate about Yasuo is his E. "Look at me, I'm dashing"
amqwetts21475 votesYeeee, Yi > Yasuo all fucking day. Let me support you with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd9-h9sD1YM
Emerald Fang4 votesWhy are people even complaining about 50-51% winrates? That's literally THE ULTIMATE GOAL OF RIOT, having most champs at ~50% winrate.
PermabannedGaren3 votes[{quoted}](name=gh God,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rQb9F3yE,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-04-11T17:46:21.183+0000)
But i wonder why people prefer complain about yasuo that has 15% pick rate and 50% win rate in plat+
While You don't see A SINGLE thread about yi
i came to the conclusion that people prefer being stat-checked by yi rather than dodging yasuo tornado and use his window of power that is his passive (once triggered=goodbye)
but what do i know? i'm just a filthy Janna player
-gH
Please don't try to convince people to get one of my mains nerfed so that they will leave my other main alone. >_>
No but, it is strange. People would rather be stat-checked than be outplayed. I guess it's because the former is going to happen in the 1v1 no matter what you do, but you feel you could have done something in the latter and this triggers people's inferiority complexes. The boards are dumb.
RexSaur3 votesThe fact is, lower elos players (aka 99% of boards) for some reason would rather get stat checked by a point and click champion like yi than being outplayed by someone like yasuo or riven.
Not sure why are they are allergic to champs who actually have gameplay on them rather than a tank or yi outstating you and clicking you to death.
Ahristocats1 votesFor once you make sense
-gH
FireDrizzle1 votesMaster yi can't dash every 0.000001 second, that's why people hate Yasuo.
Ahristocats3 voteswhat? master yi Q cd is reduced by 1 sec each AA (doubled with passive) CD is refunded by 70 or 80% on kill/assist
YJRBqwXJcS1 votesthe point of the god damn thread is yasuo is performing damn near the same level as master yi. So why are people complaining in the first place?
god people out here counter arguing are only proving the point further
Scary Door1 votesI forgot about Master Yi's windwall, free armor pen, double crit and his dash on a 0.5 second cooldown.
Master Yi's power curve is much slower/more gradual, while Yasuo's is fast... literally two items to achieve 100% crit chance. Master Yi is much easier to shut down/outplay.
YJRBqwXJcS2 votes[{quoted}](name=Scary Door,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rQb9F3yE,comment-id=00150000,timestamp=2017-04-12T03:44:36.952+0000)
I forgot about Master Yi's windwall, free armor pen, double crit and his dash on a 0.5 second cooldown.
Master Yi's power curve is much slower/more gradual, while Yasuo's is fast... literally two items to achieve 100% crit chance. Master Yi is much easier to shut down/outplay.
YOU ARE PROVING THE POINT.
OP is saying if two champions are within the same win percentile in the same elo with the same playrate
why is yasuo the only one being complained about?
what he is saying is you all are overreacting and just want to make excuses for your piss poor behavior regarding champion balance.
Scary Door1 votesRemember when LaBlanc had her silence and people complained about her endlessly? Believe it or not, she was in the bottom 15 of win rates. She was known as a win-lane, lose-game type of champion. She had a 45-46% winrate consistently back then.
People complained because they felt that a silence on an assassin like old LaBlanc was unhealthy... rightfully so I might add. Some champions have play patterns and designs that are not healthy, even if they have lower winrates or similar win rates to other champions in the same role.
Tryndamere; unhealthy champion, but not one that most would consider "overpowered" in the traditional sense. His play pattern is just one that doesn't revolve around interaction and is not particularly fun to play with or against.
I understand why people complain about Yasuo, although I don't find him overpowered at all... he is simply obnoxious to play against and has too many tools he can utilize. Master Yi seems balanced, fairly binary in terms of playstyle---either he's ahead and will continue to do well or he isn't and will not---despite them both being very similar in terms of win rate they are quite different. One is a balancing nightmare, the other is just a typical ad assassin jungler.
chipndip11 votesYet he wins more than Yasuo...which proves he isn't easier to shut down or outplay in a relevant manner.
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesYasuos winrate is gimped by trash players. Plain and simple. Just the other day on my smurf i got dumpstered by a plat 5 yasuo toplane. I was playing gragas. 0/4 in lane. He could even towerdive, game was basically done. Told my premade what we need to do to win that game because i KNEW how yasuo would react. And you know what he did? Exactly, knocked up ONE member, immediately ulted solo into 4 of us. I simply EQW him and my team takes him out. He ended the game 6/15 and we won. This is exactly how 95% of yasuos play, get ahead and deactivate brain.