So can I get the thought process behind Kalista? Seriously?

hashinshin··120 votes·9,473 views

Okay so you make a champion that can dash on any auto attack. Reasonably the only champions that this will matter against is melee. Why? Because range will be... still at range, and longer ranged opponents will be... still in range. The only people this impacts negatively is melee.

So you start with a champion that just has a basis on an anti-melee mechanic and you then proceed to make the rest of her kit...

and you give her %health damage? But not %Health damage in physical so you could reasonably defend against her, you give her %health damage in magic... 20% damage. As if being able to kite out every melee champion wasn't enough you turn around and say "hey you know that OTHER mechanic that totally screws over melee? Lets give her that one too!"

I'm just struggling here. Are you guys even trying to keep things fair anymore? Have you just given up? Is the thought process now "well range already have so much of an advantage on melee that we can't make it any worse, right?"

At some point did Kalista not have %health damage and you guys went "hey man that guy who built all tank items doesn't take tons of damage from our passive effect on half of one ability, we should totally make it %health damage so you can totally notice that free damage chunking away a tank's HP!"

Also, did NOBODY at Riot HQ notice the irony of doing the Sion revamp then immediately turning around and releasing Kalista? Like nobody was going to think "so melee champions are going to be big and bulky now... and ranged champions will just effortlessly avoid everything they do anyway, huh?" It's like Olaf didn't teach Riot anything, they didn't realize that access to easy spammable escape moves renders an entire archtype completely useless, and that once spammy escape move champions get popular that nobody will touch the non-gap closing melee champions with a ten foot pole. "OH BUT MUNDO!" yeah and Mundo lost every single game except one at worlds, and then people stopped playing him once they realized he wasn't good at winning games but rather only looking cool.

Or maybe somebody was just jealous that Lucian was ruining the meta all by himself and that he needed more company.

And she also needs a good health pool, good armor pool, good base damage, normal attack range, no mana issues, and all the free survivability you can eat. Counterplay? Weaknesses? Nah those are for melee champions. Lets revamp another melee champion in to a non-meta piece of shit and think about how much better we can make ADCs!

102 Comments

iainB8525 votes

hashinshin plz, you know exactly what Rito was thinking.

LC$ BIG PLAYS SEASON 5 HERE WE COME!!!!11

SmokingPuffin20 votes

Okay so you make a champion that can dash on any auto attack. Reasonably the only champions that this will matter against is melee. Why? Because range will be... still at range, and longer ranged opponents will be... still in range. The only people this impacts negatively is melee.

Any champion who does a big chunk of their damage with skillshots is going to struggle (Lux Xerath Fizz etc) with Kallista too.

So you start with a champion that just has a basis on an anti-melee mechanic and you then proceed to make the rest of her kit... and you give her %health damage? But not %Health damage in physical so you could reasonably defend against her, you give her %health damage in magic... 20% damage. As if being able to kite out every melee champion wasn't enough you turn around and say "hey you know that OTHER mechanic that totally screws over melee? Lets give her that one too!"

Sounds a lot like Vayne. Seems natural to make a short ranged, tactically mobile champion strong against tanks and weak against assassins.

It's like Olaf didn't teach Riot anything, they didn't realize that access to easy spammable escape moves renders an entire archtype completely useless, and that once spammy escape move champions get popular that nobody will touch the non-gap closing melee champions with a ten foot pole.

I don't think the non-gap closing melee champions are for killing ADCs. I think the game will work better if we separate fighters into divers that try to bring down the carry and brawlers who are zone control dudes.. Not every fighter kit can reasonably be expected to kill an ADC.

For example, it sounds impossible to make Sion even okay at killing ADCs without making him utterly broken against fighters and mages.

AbodyHUN6663 votes

Yeah exactly. It's quite hard to kite effectively with Kalista since you have to stop for a long time for the AA. She also has quite a low damage traded for utility. I think she should be good with more damage oriented teams since she can play a bit more safe than other adcs.

Skias3 votes

Assassins cant do a thing to her either. She just scoots away.

AbodyHUN6662 votes

not if the assasin bursts her in one combo.

COWMANOFCOWS2 votes

As fizz, ive killed a kalista when I had less farm, kills, and 2 levels less. Neither of us had flash which is worth noting, but the point is, assasins can still kill her.

Hiiroglyph16 votes

First thing I said after I finished skimming the Kalista preview was "They're not releasing this. This has to be a joke." In the end, I sucked it up, bought her bundle and prepared myself for a duoQ freelo train.

2pudge1cup16 votes

Yeah, this is probably the most broken champ released in quite some time.

What a shock that it's the combination of both an ADC and CertainlyT.

Skias11 votes

Why do all of his champions completely negate defenses regardless of what role they are? Im beginning to truly despise his champions. Everytime I see his name as the creator I just start praying for another ban.

Direwolfiez6 votes

Because he doesn't understand what balance is and thinks that loads of free stats are the best thing since sliced bread.

Jushtime13 votes

Plus with Negatron Cloak gone and MR reduced on several items, itemizing against AP will be even more difficult.

The Soulforged3 votes

Plus with Negatron Cloak gone and MR reduced on several items, itemizing against AP will be even more difficult.

They nerfed mr itemization and made it cheaper and said it helped against champs with magic dmg :*(

DrCyanide13 votes

Yasuo and Braum were released back-to-back as anti-range melee-attack champions. I'd expect another dedicated anti-melee ranged-attack champion to be released soon, although you could claim that Azir's ultimate fits that role.

shppy28 votes

there are dozens of anti-melee champions in the game by this point. Releasing two half-assed anti-ranged mechs doesn't come close to leveling the playing field or justifying releasing yet another anti-melee.

Oh, and getting two potential anti-range champs doesn't do a goddamn thing to help the dozens of other melees already existing that are struggling to have a role in this mobility- and range-creeped game... that's like looking at your starving child and saying "oh, you're hungry? Well, we'll have another baby and feed it well".

TheRainInSpain2 votes

If Yasuo was an anti-range champion, he's be used in the bot lane like any other ADC. The term is Attack Damage Carry, of which there are many, melee and ranged, that fit this term. Yasuo was billed as a melee ADC, hopefully with a kit to survive a laning match up against a ranged attack damage carry. Where does the people play him? Mid lane. Not Bot lane. Yasuo is an utter failure in regards to be the first melee carry with a kit that could directly contend with ranged carries.

Blame your fellow players.

Skias3 votes

Actually, Yasuo is more then capable of going bot with an adc and absolutely ruining the lane. One trade with wind wall can spell death. Even with assist gold, he can get out of control.

TheRainInSpain1 votes

Interesting.

Now only if Nocturne and Master Yi were capable of tangling with the bot lane.

Taredom2 votes

Nocturne doesn't feel like he has near the same mechanics to be considered for such a role.

When people speak of mADCs, I think Yi, Fiora, Yasou and Poppy, most people build him as a bruiser anyways.

Kharn Skyshatter10 votes

What I don't get is why is she 550 range with her kit? Didn't they say Quinn felt too oppresive at 550 so they toned her range down before they put her up for testing?

AtheosisX3 votes

What I don't get is why is she 550 range with her kit? Didn't they say Quinn felt too oppresive at 550 so they toned her range down before they put her up for testing?

That and the absurdly boosted dash when moving away from enemy champs. If those things are changed she's probably fine.

AbodyHUN6664 votes

But Quinn had that OMG where is my health triple harrier proc burst, and her all in. Kalista has lower damage. Try playing Draven or Vayne vs her, she can't duel them and her poke eats her mana.

COWMANOFCOWS1 votes

It eats her mana and does no damage I might add. Atleast nothing trade worthy. She has the same use as vayne(counter bruiser) but doesnt scale as well into the later portion of the game where it becomes most important.

she has very little burst and almost no aoe. The only reason she can win lane is by having a support that she can throw in and who will do good dmg or geat cc for a gank.

Lord Dusteon9 votes

First, stat scaling changed completely, so looking at her in comparison to the changed stats instead of old ones would be better.

Second, her %hp requires her support/soulbound to also attack the same target within a 1.5 second timeframe. If you're trying to 1v2, you normally get a bad time.

Envy Sin1 votes

no that just adds another stack, she can stack them up on her own.

Wheatloaf4 votes

You might be thinking of her E, which is flat damage that gets a % increase.

Skias4 votes

Seriously, not hard for a support to right click something to shred the shit out of you.

COWMANOFCOWS1 votes

You know a lot of supports are melee right? you know adcs have base magis resit right? you every notice how noone build magi c pen on kalista? have you noticed how %hp dmg issnt that useful when laning bot? you notice how bad she lanes in general?

FalconPawwwwnch9 votes

%health damage needs to be physical Passive needs to have a cooldown Range needs to be 500 if she's gonna be that mobile

Champion Skin7 votes

The passive does have a cooldown (her attack speed) though it is well too short of a cooldown...

COWMANOFCOWS1 votes

It also doesnt scale well with max attack speed because her jump takes ruffly the same amount of time. Her percent hp dmg has a significant cooldown and isnt effective in lane. She would be useless if they did that to her. The most I can see them nerfing her without ruining her is by remove the extra range when her jump is backwards.

otherwise, where is the scaling the burst amd the aoe? She di0oesnt offer a hell of a lot other than not dying easilly.

MEMEME6708 votes

Either you didn't really look into how Kalista works, or you're missing something here.

Firstly, you have to note that every other ranged champion in the game has a weaker version of her passive. It's called micro, or stutter-stepping or orbwalking (although technically orbwalking is wrong.) Because Kalista can't cancel her autoattacks, she doesn't get nearly as much free mobility as it would seem if you leave this point out. Also, if you leave this point out you leave our her biggest weakness, when she attacks she commits. That means Leona can land a free e, Ezreal can land a free Q, etc. This is EXTREMELY prevalent in lane phase, where she has low attackspeed and thus can't dash very quickly.

The mechanic isn't specifically anti-melee, (if anything, you could say it's anti-slows, because it's not reduced by slowing, which normal micro is.) because every ranged champ can do this and get similar returns on it. The extra range on backwards jump is good when people are chasing you, regardless of who they are.

At the fifth paragraph is where you really start to go off the rails, though. You emphasize how her % health damage is magic, and how that screws over tanks, yet fail to mention how she has no actual steriod, putting her likely only slightly ahead of Caitlyn in terms of mid-late game dps.

If you want to specifically talk about how certain melee champs are pretty bad (which is what it seems like your last 3 paragraphs are about) then a general topic isn't the place to do it. In no way are all melee characters bad in LoL. Easy examples are Lee, Rammus, and Zed.

TheRainInSpain1 votes

Yes, this is the thing people seem to forget. Kalista seems to be billed as a light damage ranged attacker who has tons of utility. Kalista is going to be a powerful champion for the high elo vs high elo games, and absolutely suck in all other regards, like other utility Marksmen. Ashe, Varus, etc? Remember them? Piss poor win rates and popularity in low elo, yet dominates in high elo.

The place I see Kalista being used is in a more non-ADC based team, where the real carry is an AD mid, jungle, or top. Kalista is a ranged "Support" Marksman that can apply some damage and plenty of utility from range. People are going to dive her and kill her and dominate her. But lose the game. The guy they needed to shut and put down was somewhere else.

You see this in many games. A team focuses down the Marksman, yet lets Master Yi take a pentakill and six items. They try a 5v4 that wins, but lose an inhibitor tower and the inhibitor too at the same time as the teamfight.

MEMEME67010 votes

Yo, I am 'high elo' (Diamond 3), and Ashe and Varus don't see play in Solo Queue. Ashe sees some play in Ranked 5's, but she is still very unpopular. Varus sees none.

Kalista is an ADC, not a ranged Support. She provides high dps (relative to other classes) in the lategame, and is ranged. That's basically all Ranged ADCs need to do.

TheRainInSpain2 votes

I don't think you fully understand me. I'm not saying Kalista can't be used as a full blown carry. I'm saying she has the same issue as other, rather low damage, utility carries. Kalista will never reach hypercarry status, though she reach could skirmisher status. I said support as in fire support. You people seem to see one definition only when reading words with multiple definitions. Kalista isn't a machine gun. Kalista is your designated rifleman, providing consistent, but not mind blowing DPS down range.

The DM's role is to supply rapid accurate fire on enemy targets at ranges up to 550 yards (500 m) with a rifle capable of semi-automatic fire called a designated marksman rifle equipped with a telescopic sight. Like snipers, DMs are trained in quick and precise shooting, but unlike the more specialized "true" sniper, they are also attached to an infantry fireteam and intended to lay down accurate rapid fire at valuable targets as needed, thus extending the reach of the Fireteam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksman

MEMEME6707 votes

Yes, I failed to understand you, because you used a word with an extremely common meaning (Support, meaning champion who does well with low amounts of gold (and contextually, a champ who is also getting a low amount of gold) but gave the word a different meaning, without adequate context to make that clear.

Which is fine, so I don't know why you need to say things like 'you people seem to...' and such. Also, the quoted definition (and the linked wikipedia page) have nothing to do with the conversation, so idk why they're there.

Long Dong Wukong7 votes

Because Ghostcrawler thinks melee is boring and CertainlyT designs overloaded kits.

That's the thought processes.

BisWiz5 votes

Ranked solo ended up with Kalista and I at bot lane. Kalista was last pick so I should have been the adc...She forced her soul bound on me and ended up taking my minion kills even when I got the last hits. I was so annoyed and felt like I was being harassed. Is there a way to include the option of accepting or rejecting to be bounded to her? Thanks for the consideration.

Verin Oakenheel4 votes

Make her a Melee champ and increase the range of her leap. This will force her into danger but give her an out. Though it might be smarter to save face and just delete her.

AetherKingdom3 votes

hashinshin, I've brought you something very special. It's extremely important, and I think you deserve it. It's the first upvote (or downvote) this account has ever given and probably will ever give.

Direwolfiez5 votes

So...basically, your Boards virginity?

VeterenMantis3 votes

I don't see a problem with Kalista maybe because I have only played Ahri but she seems to be a below average champion She is easily out traded She has no sustain Her ward is annoying at best. the spear moves fast but it hardly does any damage. where is the problem again?

Direwolfiez3 votes

No ADC has built-in sustain. That'd be beyond stupid to implement.

Essorance10 votes

No ADC has built-in sustain. That'd be beyond stupid to implement.

Don't test rito.

MrSexyHobo3 votes

at this point who is defending adc's? i just went against a vayne top lane who was crap but hey since she is ranged she automatically gets 50 more cs than you in lane and thats if you arent getting ganked because you are at low hp for most of laning phase and any time there jungler comes top it almost certainly going to result in a kill if they have any cc at all

ModIts Yuu and Mi2 votes

I think this borders on release Diana/Rengar broken.

Raja Chachki3 votes

I never knew Diana was OP on release...

Skias3 votes

Lmao she was unstoppable.

WolfeTheyWhisper1 votes

Her weakness comes from her total lack of reliable AoE. Farming with her while pushed, and fighting multiple champions(even harder if they are ranged) will leave you, in reality, fighting for your life.

Direwolfiez6 votes

Uh...what ADC has reliable AoE? Most ADCs with AoE only have it in their ults, and even then it's not reliable.

COWMANOFCOWS1 votes

So vaynes like the only one that has none right? I figured sayingnthat was easier than listing them all....

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