So we're nerfing Shyvana due to her ability to power farm the jungle... Okay hear me out.

hashinshin·Jun 30, 2015·185 votes·9,443 views

Shyvana's win rates:

53.5% jungle. 46% top lane.

PBE changes: Burnout (W) damage lowered to 20/33/45/58/70 from 20/35/50/75/80

Okay now hear me out on this. This is going to be REALLY REALLY complicated (for Riot balance team members.) This might take all your concentration to follow.

Shyvana overpowered jungle. Shyvana underpowered lane. Shyvana burnout 20% bonus damage to jungle. No nerf Shyvana burnout damage to not jungle. Nerf Shyvana burnout damage to jungle. Shyvana no need 20% bonus damage to jungle.

I hope I didn't make this overly complicated.

168 Comments

Neo CyrusJul 1, 201563 votes

"Hmmm top lane Shyv is trash, meanwhile jungle Shyv is finally viable. Let's nerf the fuck out of both" - Riot balance team

Meanwhile no pre-nerfs for Vlad, what could possibly go wrong. /Kappa

TomA3XJul 1, 20158 votes

Just going to play draft for the entire patch, for the sole purpose of banning Vlad.

MelledoneusJul 1, 20159 votes

You can't change Vlad's kit without making him even more oppressive for either the people who play him or against him. Riot needs to fix the kit he has before any balancing should happen.

Of course I made a post about this, but our loving community downvoted it to oblivion, claiming that Bronze trash like me don't deserve to speak about the game.

Ariel the CruelJul 1, 201515 votes

Meh, thats what you get for playing ranked.

Should have stayed with the unranked master race. We're where the real pros are.

AnidanJul 1, 20155 votes

Unranked master race, unite!

AMYS GRAVEJul 1, 201510 votes

dyslexics of the world untie!

MelledoneusJul 1, 20156 votes

Well, what's done is done. Riot decided to drop me from B1 with 98 LP to B5 with 0 LP when my promos went 8-2.

In the meantime, one of my friends new to League won 3 promo games only and got into Silver 5. Seems fair.

Samflash3Jul 1, 201524 votes

Instruction not clear. Nerfed Irelia

Sincerely,

Riot.

OxBakerJul 1, 201513 votes

I know right??? Riot needs to soften up jungle Shyv before the Devourer rework so they nerf lane Shyv while they are at it? When they didn't even have to??? Whaaaaaa....

DroogzyJul 1, 201512 votes

I think this is more in preparation for the new Sated Devourer.

Shyvana will be insane with the new Devourer, so it makes sense they want to address someone who will do so well with it before the new item comes out to avoid another WW fiasco.

And as it stands, coming from someone who's strongest jungle champion is Skarner/Shyvana, they're not exactly far off about her ability to powerfarm in the jungle, it is pretty insane and exactly why I love playing as her, its not unusual for me to come out level 18 when the next closest person is level 15 or 16.

But I do see where you're coming from and have to agree, this is going to hurt lane shyvana already who is struggling, much more than a jungle shyvana. Even with the nerfs, I'll still be clearing camps in 2 seconds.

Zair UmbrasJul 1, 20158 votes

They said with new item changes, they wouldn't go nerfing kits, which is the EXACT reason they gave when people mentioned Vlad would get incredibly out of hand with these new AP items.

This is the exact post where he explains why they shouldn't nerf champions when releasing new items. It makes sense, but this just seems to be ridiculous since Master Yi who's getting the most out of the new item isn't being touched. Let's just say his passive and his Q's passive (CD reduc per AA) are both proc'able by the Phantom hit given by Sated, so 3 attacks turns into 6 on-hit procs. First 2 proc 1st phantom, which makes 3 hits so his next AA would have his passive which makes you strike twice, giving you a 2nd phantom, totaling 3 on-hit attacks in a single swing. This means with his usual BotRK+Devourer+other AS item like a Shiv, he has 2-2.5 AS with his R going, meaning he does 3 hits in about 1s. That's about 48% of current health. In 1s. They nerfed Eve's R, kept Elise's Q ratio low, and even made sure that Liandry's didn't proc an initial damage unlike all DoTs in the game to make sure people couldn't be shredded down by high amounts of current health. Seriously. >>

AbodyHUN666Jul 1, 20152 votes

Speaking of Skarner I just discovered how insane he is. I hope he won't get nerfs as well.

DroogzyJul 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Speaking of Skarner I just discovered how insane he is. I hope he won't get nerfs as well.

I know! He's my sleeper OP pick, he's so amazing right now. I think he'll go mostly unnoticed since the reason people don't like him is "muh mobility."

Brah, W and Righteous Glory, vroom vroom goes Skarner!

AbodyHUN666Jul 1, 20151 votes

Yeah, I discovered him after seeing how he could catch the enemy vayne multiple times in a game, even after she pushed him back with condemn. Noone expects that speed.

DroogzyJul 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, I discovered him after seeing how he could catch the enemy vayne multiple times in a game, even after she pushed him back with condemn. Noone expects that speed.

You can also catch a Kalista so long as you avoid her Spear ability (I forget which one it is.)

In games where I know I'm up against a Kalista, I'll run movement speed quints, get swiftness and righteous glory, you can actually get right up in face to ult her, it's great watching Kalista's rage cause they think they can kite every single meleer. Even if you get hit by her spear/rend, you can slow her down with your E, it has a stupidly huge hitbox.

supes the lostJul 2, 20153 votes

Once upon a time, I was playing Skarner and had the Wonderful feeling of having Kalista be the enemy ADC. About 16 or so minutes into the game, I was leading my team into the coming teamfight, having gotten a decent gap with W when I caught sight of the enemy Kalista hanging out in the middle of mid lane farming. I charged her, and Kalista, having been a relatively new champ at the time was slow to react to my appearance, before she could finish the auto attack she had ready to throw and escape from my grasp, my ult hooked her and I walked back...

Into the middle of my team. That was the last I saw of that Kalista all game.

XonraJul 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I think this is more in preparation for the new Sated Devourer.

Shyvana will be insane with the new Devourer, so it makes sense they want to address someone who will do so well with it before the new item comes out to avoid another WW fiasco.

And as it stands, coming from someone who's strongest jungle champion is Skarner/Shyvana, they're not exactly far off about her ability to powerfarm in the jungle, it is pretty insane and exactly why I love playing as her, its not unusual for me to come out level 18 when the next closest person is level 15 or 16.

But I do see where you're coming from and have to agree, this is going to hurt lane shyvana already who is struggling, much more than a jungle shyvana.

I really don't get how people think she is going to be insane with Devourer. I won't argue the fact it will help her, because I'd be dumb to make THAT statement. However, she needs to be good for a change, and some of the junglers that will be obvious cases of strong, will be much stronger.

Shyv hasn't been a good jungler for a while in comparison to Sej, Lee Sin, Rek'Sai, or even Vi.

One chance she had to become popular again, and they aren't gonna allow it before it even has a chance to happen. That is my confusion, especially since they are also nerfing top lane Shyv in order to keep it from happening.

Slamurai JackJul 1, 20156 votes

Champion.gg has rated Shyvana as the #1 jungler for the second patch in a row. That's why she's getting nerfed, not because of the new item. She's already one of the best junglers in the game, and the new item would push her into the uncontested best spot. This nerf is needed, as much as I hate to see my champions nerfed.

XonraJul 1, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=71Xg3041,comment-id=000900030000,timestamp=2015-07-01T14:25:43.025+0000)

Champion.gg has rated Shyvana as the #1 jungler for the second patch in a row. That's why she's getting nerfed, not because of the new item. She's already one of the best junglers in the game, and the new item would push her into the uncontested best spot. This nerf is needed, as much as I hate to see my champions nerfed.

I guess there is a reason I don't use that site, because they don't seem to know what they are talking about.

If she was the #1 jungler, you'd think people would be playing her more.

Everyone from Bronze to Challenger knows that right now Rek'Sai and Gragas are THE top junglers. Shyv is no where neeeaaaar them RIGHT NOW.

I'm sorry to burst your (or their) bubble, but she is not the #1 jungler. I'd maybe put her in the top 5 if I'm being generous, but realistically, I'd put her closer to #7.

Rek'Sai/Gragas
Eve
Sej
Lee/Jarvan
Nunu/Fiddle

I would put all of the above, perhaps some in slightly different order, above Shyv.

Also, that site hasn't been paying attention to winrates with their "#1 jungler" claim, as Fiddle has been the highest win rate for the past few patches, before this Runeglaive garbage was an indirect nerf to him in the jungle.

Shrek LuigiJul 1, 20155 votes

Here's the real one

There's no way any competent player is going to be pressured by an eve lol.

XonraJul 1, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stovetop Chemist,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=71Xg3041,comment-id=00090003000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-01T15:05:30.376+0000)

Here's the real one

There's no way any competent player is going to be pressured by an eve lol.

You don't watch pro games do you? Where Eve is picked quite a lot.

Just sayin...

Also Trundle? lol no one plays Trundle, let alone him being number one.

I'm not sure if you are stuck multiple seasons in the past and just added Rek'Sai to your list.

Also...again with, you must not be watching games, because Naut is kind of a support now, and no one does or has for a while, played him jungle.

Where are people getting these lists, and am I just in a time loop where people think this is a year ago, with this Trundle in the jungle stuff.

No one competent is going to be pressured by Eve <_< get out of here with that. lol Now I know you don't know what you are saying.

Shrek LuigiJul 1, 20157 votes

Just because it's played a lot in LCS doesn't mean it's the best. It's just the most appropriate choice a player is comfortable picking within a team comp.

Only the players who aren't good tend to get fixated over LCS picks because they dont have the skill to learn champ strengths for themselves. Don't be that guy.

Slamurai JackJul 1, 20158 votes

And everyone also knows that Ekko is still the most broken champion in the game, you should always pick Gragas if he's open, and Lucian is a top tier adc. You have Lee Sin listed as the 4th best jungler in the game? Get the fuck out of here. Do you still ban Leblanc too?

XonraJul 1, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=71Xg3041,comment-id=00090003000000000001,timestamp=2015-07-01T15:16:33.682+0000)

And everyone also knows that Ekko is still the most broken champion in the game, you should always pick Gragas if he's open, and Lucian is a top tier adc. You have Lee Sin listed as the 4th best jungler in the game? Get the fuck out of here. Do you still ban Leblanc too?

"Everyone" doesn't "know" he is the most broken champion in the game. People whining on the boards isn't everyone. Strong, yes. Broken, no.
You are at least correct about 1 thing, which is you should pick Gragas, though I wouldn't just blindly pick him just because he is open. So maybe you are like 60% correct.
Lucian isn't a top tier adc right now, so I'm not sure if this comment was sarcastic.

top adcs right now

Kalista
Sivir
Ashe/Tristana
Maybe Lucian.so he is maybe in the top 5, maybe.
You are a troll if you think Lee istn't still good. Also I said he was tied with Jarvan, because honestly, neither are bad, but the champs above them are basically on auto pick. If you suddenly removed Gragas/Sej/Rek'sai, Lee would be in the top two picked pretty much instantly again. Sorry if you can't understand that for some reason, but it is what it is.

Be all butt hurt over someone's opinion though and act like an angry teenager lol

Feel free to disagree with me, but don't try to argue it at me like it is some overwhelming fact because some angry kid on the internet (you, from how you are acting) says so.

You want to give some actual reasons, then feel free to have a discussion about it. You want to act a fool and such with no reasoning at all, then you feel free to take your own advice with the "get the fuck out of here", cause you just sound like an angry kid.

Slamurai JackJul 1, 20156 votes

You think Lee, Lucian, and Ekko are among the best at their positions when the numbers blatantly disagree with you. Lucians win rate is 46%. Lee's is 47%. Gragas' is 47.5%. Ekko's is an astounding 43%. For such strong champions, they sure don't win games, and you shouldn't be picking them if your goal is to pick an OP champ. Less Gragas, more Amumu. Less Kalista, more Jinx. Less Alistar, more Soraka.

XonraJul 1, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=71Xg3041,comment-id=0009000300000000000100000000,timestamp=2015-07-01T15:38:29.207+0000)

You think Lee, Lucian, and Ekko are among the best at their positions when the numbers blatantly disagree with you. Lucians win rate is 46%. Lee's is 47%. Gragas' is 47.5%. Ekko's is an astounding 43%. For such strong champions, they sure don't win games, and you shouldn't be picking them if your goal is to pick an OP champ. Less Gragas, more Amumu. Less Kalista, more Jinx. Less Alistar, more Soraka.

What are you even going on about?

I never Said Lucian was the best, in fact I'm pretty sure I just said he was MAYBE in the top 5.

I also never even mentioned Ekko until a response to YOU saying he was broken, so...are you just daft or trolling? In fact, pretty sure again, I just said the opposite, in saying he wasn't broken or OP. So you are just being trolly now.

You are obviously full of it. Jinx over Kalista? Soraka over Alistar? Are you dumb? I guess that is why no pro or high elo player pick Soraka over Alistar, or Jinx over Kalista.

Honestly, wtf are you even talking about? Are you trying to argue with someone else or something and just filling in the blanks with nonsense? Half of what you are saying I never said, and said the opposite of lol

Maybe just stop while you are behind, because you are making no damn sense.

Slamurai JackJul 1, 20156 votes

You still put lucian as a top 5 when he's one of the worst adcs in the game, and you put Lee in the same place but for jungle. And I bring up Ekko because I'm sure you think he's quite strong, when in reality he's extremely overrated. Point is, you're just copying what you see in LCS, but LCS doesn't fucking matter in solo Q. Down here, Shyvana is one of if not the best jungler in the game, Lucian is trash tier, Ekko is a joke, and Wukong should be pick or ban. And you should never pick Lee Sin if your goal is to win unless you're a god at him.

Linna ExcelJul 1, 20158 votes

Shyvana's win rates:

53.5% jungle. 46% top lane.

PBE changes: Burnout (W) damage lowered to 20/33/45/58/70 from 20/35/50/75/80

Okay now hear me out on this. This is going to be REALLY REALLY complicated (for Riot balance team members.) This might take all your concentration to follow.

Shyvana overpowered jungle. Shyvana underpowered lane. Shyvana burnout 20% bonus damage to jungle. No nerf Shyvana burnout damage to not jungle. Nerf Shyvana burnout damage to jungle. Shyvana no need 20% bonus damage to jungle.

I hope I didn't make this overly complicated.

HULK HEAD HURT NOW. HULK SMASH!

Anyways, I kind of agree. Maybe riot should get rid of W's bonus jungle damage and increase the base damage so that's it's higher than her current damage top but lower than her jungle damage. Also, isn't the whole point of picking shyvana supposed to be because you want to power farming the jungle and become a late game nightmare? I mean it's the people who think she's a top who are bringing her win rate down.

Last season I picked Evelynn jungle and was forced to take her top against a shyv after our top didn't connect. Despite having a machete and jungle runes/masteries it wasn't a terrible match up for me.

BudupopsJul 1, 20158 votes

challenger>balance team ... who am i kidding bronze>balance team

Nunya BezwacksJul 1, 20152 votes

i know a lot of bronze players who don't agree with a lot of nerfs that get released this one since you obiously dont read is to stop shyvana from destroying in the future when sated devourer is released

BudupopsJul 1, 20155 votes

obviously you didn't read this guys post as to why that balance change makes little sense

Hola HelloJul 1, 20157 votes

Fucking baffles me how they nerf shyv and reksai still remains the same, it's insane.

Buttigieg 2020Jul 1, 201519 votes

They are reducing the knock up radius by 25%. Don't act like that isn't a big nerf.

pE4CbxDPQOJun 30, 20156 votes

It is a love tap, man.

hashinshinJun 30, 201579 votes

10 damage on a 7 second duration ability that also gives 25% of it's damage to melee attacks?

We're talking about removing over 100 damage from an ability. Love tap my asshole.

NinjaToad99Jul 1, 2015112 votes

{quoted} Love tap my asshole.

http://subversify.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/49157-george-takei-oh-my-gif-e64l.gif

Only Play DariusJul 1, 201522 votes

This was perfect.

Silent PaceJul 1, 20151 votes

[deleted]

NinjaToad99Jul 1, 20159 votes

George Takei I think.

ProfirixJul 1, 20155 votes

I agree, at first it appears to be a small nerf, but you do have to realize that burnout runs for 7 seconds (10x7) + 25% per hit. That adds up to at least 70 damage plus however many autos you can manage to get off in the long run.

We can at least be happy that it wasn't a significant nerf to her starting jungle. They just need to tone down the on hit if it seems to be giving people trouble.

I can promise you that this change is only in response to the devourer. It will again become a decent pick on her because she will greatly benefit from it and receive a huge power spike late game in combination with her Q. I have no doubt that her jungle win rate will go much higher when sated devourer update is live.

Peel Your ADCJun 30, 20156 votes

Teemo Lose half your scaling on your ult and then come back.

Only Play DariusJul 1, 201518 votes

The changes to warding at that time completely skewed the balance of invisibility, sorry but something HAD to be done. It was either put a cap on his shrooms or nerf the scaling, and I think they made the right choice. item 3151 and it still does damage that make people think twice about continuing to explore enemy territory.

Icestar1186Jul 1, 20156 votes

You're being a little bit condescending. That means talking down to someone.

TheMoonManJul 1, 20157 votes

pretty sure thats the point. fan boying riot or flaming riot either way, rational changes they do not make and this shows it. hes just upset that his opinion isnt going to be acknowledged and rightly so, Riot has a right to know how they make the community feel whether is be this, the elise "buffs" or any other problems going on.

TEA Nietzsche Jul 1, 20156 votes

I agree. If jungle Shyv is a problem, they should nerf her (remove the bonus damage to monsters) properly. But they are doing exactly the same mistake they did with my poor bug Kha'Zix. Step 1: Nerf general shit about the kit when only Jungle (Zix/Shyv) is the problem Step 2: Compensate in jungle (they added damage to monsters to Kha) Step 3: Nerf more until not viable in the lanes at all (RIP Top'Zix) Step 4: Metashift, Kha/future Shyv is not viable at all, not even in the jungle

I feel ya guys.