So now that Ryze is losing most of his targetted no counterplay sustained damage

FalconPawwwwnch·Apr 14, 2015·18 votes·1,286 views

Can we do something about every ranged ADC doing the same thing for the last 6 years?

36 Comments

BluePolarizerApr 14, 201511 votes

This. A Ryze Q is just an inferior ADC autoattack that costs mana and can't crit.

Too TonApr 14, 20156 votes

He's tanky unlike most adcs

FalconPawwwwnchApr 14, 20159 votes

His targetted damage actually has a cost and doesn't slow on hit whereas ranged ADCs can abuse red buff

Too TonApr 14, 20153 votes

If cost you mean mana and he stacks mana so it's not a problem late game. He can't abuse red buff but he's still tanky that's a pretty good trade off....

DelimonApr 14, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Too Ton,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rNYqmlK0,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-04-14T03:33:06.039+0000)

He's tanky unlike most adcs

are you serious??? Ryze is squishy as hell until he gets his items. He hits and runs away for a reason.

UltraGigaNigaApr 14, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Too Ton,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rNYqmlK0,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-04-14T03:33:06.039+0000)

He's tanky unlike most adcs

This is a valid point and GD downvotes. Typical as fuck. Just leave it at one or something instead of being brainless fucks

RenailleApr 14, 20154 votes

{quoted}

This is a valid point and GD downvotes. Typical as fuck. Just leave it at one or something instead of being brainless fucks

"Your dps source is allowed to have 0 counterplay as long as you aren't tanky"

BerserkGoldfishApr 14, 20152 votes

{quoted}

"Your dps source is allowed to have 0 counterplay as long as you aren't tanky"

except AAs actually do have counterplay.

RenailleApr 14, 20153 votes

{quoted}

except AAs actually do have counterplay.

What counterplay is there for a auto attacks?

Zair UmbrasApr 14, 20152 votes

Randuin's slows them, no item or ability in the game can make some one's CDs be higher. Thornmail. No item or ability in the game makes your abilities reflect damage at you. Blinds and Jax's E. No item or ability let's you avoid more than one ability at a time unless you've got a Banshee's AND you're Sivir/Noct, but that maxes at 2 while Jax's E and any kind of Blind last for an entire duration of 0 damage dealt while Ryze can laugh off a Banshee's and spell shield with his low cool downs after his passive is proc'd.

Honestly, people complaining about AA's not being skill shots is just silly. Spells don't crit, so they're not reliant on RNG. Spells do huge base damages without items, AA's do not. You can drop four spells on some one's face in the time it takes the average ADC to land their first AA.

AzlagorApr 14, 20154 votes

counterbuilding =/= counterplay 2) , quite some items to defend vs magical damage. And unlike armor, there are alot items that grant mr+offstats and even a mr-aura.

I really agree with the OP that it's kinda wrong to have the main damage source in the game beeing ranged point n click. If ad carrys would atleast need some time to stackup damage so you can counterplay them by forceing short trades, but right now a lategame adc outbursts assasins depending on his critluck...

BerserkGoldfishApr 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

counterbuilding =/= counterplay 2) , quite some items to defend vs magical damage. And unlike armor, there are alot items that grant mr+offstats and even a mr-aura.

I really agree with the OP that it's kinda wrong to have the main damage source in the game beeing ranged point n click. If ad carrys would atleast need some time to stackup damage so you can counterplay them by forceing short trades, but right now a lategame adc outbursts assasins depending on his critluck...

You may have missed the part where I said I wasn't even talking about the defensive stat. Only one of those items that is relevant to what I said is Banshee's and as someone already pointed out, is useless is he starts q then bind instead of vice versa.

I was talking about the AS slow aura of FH, the AS slow passive of Randuins, the ADC kills themselves passive of thornmail.

although now that someone has brought it up, an Item that was like the MR version of randuins would be cool, like being hit by a spell increases all other cooldowns of the champ that hit you by 1.5-2 seconds. bee a good antimage tank item, not so useful against ADC's. If they had something like that, theyd even be able to not change ryze, because then hed be tanky, deal high damage, but offered better counterplay than "you missed your first q :P"

Zair UmbrasApr 14, 20151 votes

If you think Assassins are outbursted by a lategame ADC, then you've never faced a Zed, Fizz, Akali, or even a Jax or J4. J4 and Jax don't even need more than two damage items to burst like an assassin, most J4's doing it with only one damage item.

And counterplay is counterbuilding. Countering is countering. If items directly counter some one, you're playing to counter. You counterplay by counterbuilding. Much like you'd use a QSS to counter a Malzahar or getting a FH to counter Vayne. It is counterplay.

What's not counterplay is a 1s CD targetted ability that hits like a freight train on a champion who's ungodly tanky, usually sitting around 3-4k health and over 200 armor.

BerserkGoldfishApr 14, 20155 votes

because GD don't care about solid arguments. go through every thread and reply to a random comment "gawd youre such a sheepish noob" . doesn't matter who's argument is better when someone comes to cry.

Earthlord JazzApr 14, 20155 votes

I don't really get the excuse:

"But he's tanky" ......................

He's tanky cause he builds tankier. If he's spending his hard earned gold on items that give defensive stats, then he better damn well be tankier than someone that builds pure damage

BerserkGoldfishApr 14, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Earthlord Jazz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rNYqmlK0,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2015-04-14T04:55:02.551+0000)

I don't really get the excuse:

"But he's tanky" ......................

He's tanky cause he builds tankier. If he's spending his hard earned gold on items that give defensive stats, then he better damn well be tankier than someone that builds pure damage

The point there was he gets free offense by building tanky items because the mana scaling on his abilities

stuartk11Apr 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The point there was he gets free offense by building tanky items because the mana scaling on his abilities

But, isn't that because he's building mana? And not from the tanky stats? If so, then he still pays to be tanky, since the mana of the item that he pays for is included in its cost.

PerishSoftlyApr 14, 20151 votes

The point trying to be made here is that as a rule, tanky items shouldn't also give you significant sources of damage. This is why Atma's Impaler was removed: it made your HP into an offensive stat. (Of course we still have Volibear and Sejuani with dual hp scaling abilities but whatever). It's why Rammus and Malphite are monsters if they get fed, it's why Vlad is infuriating to fight.

They get damage by building a defensive stat. You can't pidgeonhole them into a role, because their kit automatically lets them branch out in another direction.

stuartk11Apr 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The point trying to be made here is that as a rule, tanky items shouldn't also give you significant sources of damage. This is why Atma's Impaler was removed: it made your HP into an offensive stat. (Of course we still have and with dual hp scaling abilities but whatever). It's why Rammus and Malphite are monsters if they get fed, it's why Vlad is infuriating to fight.

They get damage by building a defensive stat. You can't pidgeonhole them into a role, because their kit automatically lets them branch out in another direction.

The difference there is that they get their damage directly from the defensive stats that they gain from the items, allowing them to build Randuin's Omen, Spirit Visage and other tanky items like that for their damage. Ryze gets his damage from mana, meaning that he builds Frozen Heart and Rod of Ages, instead of the full tanky items. Think of him like an AP bruiser with an unhealthy design.

You do still have a point, though, that you shouldn't be able to be too tanky and still have moderate damage. I think that the changes they're proposing on the PBE are aimed at solving this, but seems more like a nerf to be honest (though this is now somewhat off-topic).

OxBakerApr 14, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The point there was he gets free offense by building tanky items because the mana scaling on his abilities

Yeah, but Riot's nerfing the mana scaling so... just saying...

BerserkGoldfishApr 14, 20154 votes

Well I did acknowledge it, even counting in the 25-33 range difference for the center vs edge, those are the only 4 that beat him.

BerserkGoldfishApr 14, 20154 votes

Thornmail, frozen heart, randuins, blinds

FalconPawwwwnchApr 14, 20157 votes

Lol? Tanking =/= counterplay

Counterplay = any actions I can take to avoid or dodge said damage. Ryze's Qs are unavoidable, just like autoattacks. Just like autoattacks, I can build defense to negate Ryze's damage. That doesn't make them any less avoidable.

Are you trolling at this point?

RenailleApr 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Thornmail, frozen heart, randuins, blinds

TIL that "Counterplay" and "Counterbuilding" are the same thing.

BerserkGoldfishApr 14, 20153 votes

but hes tanky

FalconPawwwwnchApr 14, 20155 votes

See above comment

BerserkGoldfishApr 14, 20155 votes

{quoted}

See above comment

how about ryze doesn't have to deal with item 3075 , item 3143 , item 3110 , item 3047 , Rammus , gromp buff, chance of crit failing him, Teemo , Quinn , Jax , can also slow with this lil thing called item 3116

also, no, but one of his targeted snares

FalconPawwwwnchApr 14, 20157 votes

ADCs don't lose all their damage when they get silenced, Rylai's is not innate, he'll pay 3k gold for that. Comparing Ryze with Rylais to an ADC with red buff is a moot point because they don't sacrifice gold for it whereas Ryze would give up on better itemization.

Ryze also has shorter range than most ADCs as ability ranges are deflated drastically compared to autoattack ranges, since AA ranges are computed at the end of champion models whereas ability ranges are calculated from the center of models

SaiannaApr 14, 20156 votes

Falcon, i also believe Ryze somehow isn't in best state, but please don't behave like angry fanboys against other opinions.

Berserk gave good points. There are alot more anti AD items than anti AP. Also only few silences are left in LoL. Imo whole comparing Ryze - AA ADC is wrong. It'd be better to compare him to Pantheon, as he's AD burst caster.

And in the end we all'll have to see changes for ourselves once they come live...

BerserkGoldfishApr 14, 20153 votes

Id also like to know which part of my listing things that mess with ADCs comment was wrong. make a discussion out of it.

BerserkGoldfishApr 14, 20153 votes

Ryze has a shorter range that 1 adc pre range boosting ability, the shortest range of his spells is 600, only surpassed by cait if your comparing him to adcs, at level 5 for trist and kogs range booster they finally pass him, ad twitchs ult at 16 technically passes him. even accounting for the 25 unit deflation due to spell vs AA.

they lose their damage when they get blinded, so its fair there. but wait, teemos blind lasts a whopping 2.5 seconds, no silence lasts that long. they lose their damage walking too close to a frozen heart or attacking a randuins user. they kill themselves vs thornmail.

FalconPawwwwnchApr 14, 20157 votes

Sigh, since apparently you didn't acknowledge my post, I'll rephrase this again

In basic terms, a 700 range AA is MUCH longer than a 700 range ability, and only gets worse depending on the target you hit.

Please don't ramble without knowing important things such as this

BerserkGoldfishApr 14, 20153 votes

that's not tanking, the passives attatched to the items are counterplay, blind is counterplay

shalecApr 14, 20153 votes

You're comparing a mage who can build items like Frozen Heart and RoA and get a significant boost in damage to a class that can only build damage items. Ryze also has some significant AOE damage, which most ADCs lack entirely.