You know im kinda glad cait got nerfed the way she did.

Rexxiee·Jun 6, 2017·53 votes·5,991 views

Or i would have never found out the shiv rfc build, that shit is so fun to play and its actually decent/viable too!

It embraces her poke/siege playstyle in tradeoff of huge dps/good against everything the runnans build had, i think its alright as cait wasant supposed to have huge dps without using traps/bushes, makes her more fair to play against too, as now any late game adc will destroy her in dps in a team fight against tanks due to no runnans unless shes fighting in a bush and multiple ppl get trapped, so now you're actually rewarded for playing your champion properly.

Now if only draven wasant so bullshit to play against in this patch, nerfing cait and lucian while ignoring draven/xayah/twitch was not a wise choice, really all 5 should have got the nerfs on the same patch.

73 Comments

AhristocatsJun 6, 201737 votes

rexsaur before: "this cait nerf will delete her from the game nice riot"

rexsaur: "wow, i'm glad cait got nerfed like that"

you know that her win rate didn't change right? at least she isn't one of the strongest adc anymore as there are twitch and draven now (and xayah)

Big LincolnJun 6, 201726 votes

shhh

he's happy, that's all that matters

RalanrJun 6, 20179 votes

Huh. Wow this is a rarity.

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEJun 7, 201714 votes

I really enjoyed all item builds that were not Hurricane on Cait, and felt like there was this pressure to build it on her even though it felt wrong? Building Shiv and getting a headshot crit shiv proc, feels soo damn good. Going RFC and poking turrets, for when I don't want to interact with enemies, but still want to win the game. My options, SOO MANY OPTIONS. Caitlyn item 3087 Caitlyn item 3094 Caitlyn item 3046 Caitlyn item 3075

AhristocatsJun 7, 20172 votes

name checks out

Sahn UzalJun 7, 20176 votes

Tutorial Cait OP Caitlyn item 3075

UnboundHadesJun 7, 20171 votes

lul

RiotRiot MEMEMEMEMEJun 7, 20174 votes

Gotta be durable yo.

Lucian WaifuJun 7, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot MEMEMEMEME,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rNIvwieA,comment-id=0006000100000000,timestamp=2017-06-07T17:58:45.912+0000)

Gotta be durable yo.

Plz, Caitlyn with item 3812 is more durable!

Evelyn EndwiseJun 7, 20171 votes

As a Cait main, thissssssssssssss

PoskeJun 7, 20171 votes

Actually hurricane felt the best on her due to passive stacking... Firecannon sounds good but to bad it scked

DreadlocksJun 8, 20171 votes

#RevertRengar

DisembarkJun 6, 20177 votes

She's still cancer though. I legit feel like I see a cait in every single game and per play rate AND win rate have gone up since the "nerf".

She just auto shoves the enemy ad into tower and if their jungler doesn't help you can't do shit. Also later in the game if you try waveclearing against her its even more cancer as she uses rapidfire + shiv to chunk you for half your life if you try and defend your tower. Nice.

VenomarJun 6, 20174 votes

It's because Shiv/Rapidfire is low key better than runaans/Rapidfire in almost every Elo. More burst, more wave clear, more reliable damage in ALMOST all situations but full on 5v5 teamfighting. And even then it's safer damage and reliable and rapid burst on single targets.

Zach xDJun 7, 20171 votes

Draven catching on usually results in a Caitlyn play spike too since it's a widespread belief that she's the go-to counter. She's strong on her own, but Draven meta isn't helping either.

DunkinNoobsJun 7, 20173 votes

I like how her winrate didn't go down at all with the nerfs. It even appears to have gone up slightly, which makes me wonder if Runaans was overvalued before.

Lord DesertJun 7, 20171 votes

Technically it wasnt really overvalued, but it spikes way less than Shiv and isnt as reliable in terms of power, because it was a lategame team fight item. So she now will always have more early power that is also more reliable. So an increased winrate was and is likely.

CaveslothJun 7, 20171 votes

Not to mention her damn playrate is high as hell too. I'd like a tad more variety in adcs tbh.

Lord DesertJun 7, 20171 votes

My suggestion would be to half the duration of her traps if placed near an active enemy turret. All other long lasting abilitys like invis traps have drawbacks or flat out dont really work if placed/used near enemy turrets. Pets, Azirs soldiers and Iverns bushes also have lower power near them. So why should her traps not be influenced in any way? Doesnt make sense to me :/

Atleast the other adcs are viable adcs, they may not be as strong but you still can play them. But more varity is never wrong.

CaveslothJun 8, 20171 votes

This has been suggested many times, why they haven't done it is beyond me.

Lucian WaifuJun 6, 20172 votes

This all started when Riot buffed Draven's Q earlier this season and hasn't nerfed him after he became stronger than intended.

Urgot doggy doggJun 6, 20171 votes

not draven just dd being op

RexxieeJun 6, 201720 votes

[{quoted}](name=Urgot doggy dogg,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rNIvwieA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-06-06T18:47:53.198+0000)

not draven just dd being op

Ive played against a draven that went IE SHIV and it was just as bad.

Yes DD is broken and it needs a slight nerf (30% > 20% on the passive), but draven is also broken by himself.

RaiyzaJun 6, 20176 votes

Draven is not broken. He is rewarded by consistently catching his axes. Any champion with displacement can ruin Dravens day. Hell, even cait can place a trap on the axe space if shes quick enough.

Zach xDJun 6, 20177 votes

{quoted}

Draven is not broken. He is rewarded by consistently catching his axes. Any champion with displacement can ruin Dravens day. Hell, even cait can place a trap on the axe space if shes quick enough.

If a champion has a gimmick and that gimmick results in the champion overperforming, that gimmick doesn't make them any more or less balanced. This statement is as true for Draven as it is for Xayah.

Draven can maneuver around CC with his W, then catch the axe, get the reset on it, and repeat. The hitbox on the axe coming down is large enough so that he can ignore the caitlyn trap as well. Displacement CAN affect Draven don't get me wrong, but despite that weakness, statistically they don't seem to be enough to make a case for Draven not being overtuned at the moment.

It's also hard to make a case for Death's Dance being the main problem here as most of his top builds opt for Bloodthirster instead.

http://www.op.gg/champion/draven/statistics/adc

RaiyzaJun 6, 20171 votes

Draven has to be constantly attacking to continue his damage like that. He's also only got average range at 550. Ashe/Cait/Varus/Jhin can out range him if he's slowed at all. Dodge Draven's E and you should be able to kite. Slow him at all and he'll have to work harder to catch the axes or he won't catch it at all. I play Draven a ton and it's actually pretty difficult to fight a competent Ashe/Varus.

6SfoolJun 6, 20171 votes

I must be really bad then. I play both Ashe and Varus and just get demolished. Then again ADC is my second worst role.

RaiyzaJun 6, 20172 votes

You have to pay clear attention to where Draven is walking. There's a pretty sizable gap of time from when he throws the axe, to when he catches it. You can actually get two autos off pre 6. Varus can detonate blight easily during that time.

Your support can also be huge help by harassing or engaging on Draven while he tries to cs. A decent Draven will know to stay back a bit while trying to cs. If he's getting up close to attack without any kind of setup, he's creating his own grave. Especially against hard cc supports like Morg or Leona.

Bouncemaster ZacJun 6, 201712 votes

{quoted}

Draven is not broken. He is rewarded by consistently catching his axes. Any champion with displacement can ruin Dravens day. Hell, even cait can place a trap on the axe space if shes quick enough.

Until 5-6 items where he drops a 2.5k crit and kills the enemy carry in one auto. No need to reset the auto at that point, just press Q again.

RaiyzaJun 6, 20173 votes

That's a positioning problem then brah. The carry shouldnt be anywhere near draven.

Bouncemaster ZacJun 6, 201719 votes

{quoted}

That's a positioning problem then brah. The carry shouldnt be anywhere near draven.

No, it's a Draven problem. He can clear his way through enemy peel with his E, run up with the MS boost from W, land one auto and his team wins the entire teamfight for free because the enemy carried died to one auto. He can damn near do that shit in lane too. 120 damage autos at level 1 aren't acceptable.

RaiyzaJun 6, 20172 votes

No, that is a clear exagguration.

If you die in one auto, you're doing something horribly wrong. Hell even two autos. Very rarely do I get a kill with just 3 autos at that point in the game (If it does happen, the enemy carry is a complete idiot.). If he's running at you with an MS boost, hes throwing up a flag HEY IM COMING. HIT ME. Your team has to be very slow minded to miss that opportunity.

Also he's been throwing those autos at level 1 since his release. He's only being complained about now because of DD, which to me isn't even a problem. It only lets him survive a little easier.

VenomarJun 6, 201710 votes

It may be an exageration. But getting blipped in two or even three axes pales in comparison to the damage any other AD can do. What AD can kill you in three autos with three items other than Draven? protip: none of them. One auto crit you're chunked out of the fight entirely, and that's an issue. He's doing the damage of Jhins fourth shot crit, or caits headshots, on every spinning axe, with more attack speed and regularity, you can't tell me that it's okay.

And while he has been throwing those autos level one since release, he had his Q changed at the end of season six, which is part of the problem now. He scales way harder and snowballs all the same which is never a good thing.

And DD being the reason is a meme. Yes he takes it sometimes but no its not 100% pick on him bloodthirster is still picked more. It should be too because it's objectively better in most situations unless the enemy has serious, serious burst.

AgentBlackJun 7, 20171 votes

What AD can kill you in three autos with three items other than Draven?

Jinx

Anu3isIIJun 7, 20173 votes

If Jinx can do that, everybody can...

AgentBlackJun 7, 20171 votes

Jinx's rockets deal 10% bonus damage, even more if they crit, and even more with Infinity Edge, a core item. Combine this with a Statikk Shiv crit, another core item, and she can 3-shot a typical ADC. I don't know of any other ADCs who can pull this off, aside from Draven and possibly Q-max Vayne.

Bottom LanerJun 8, 20171 votes

~~ignoring the fact that you ignored the -15% attack speed on Fishbones which actually cripples her dueling power~~

item 3087 is not a core item on Jinx at all. Her core items are item 3031 , item 3085 , and item 3006 , with a item 3094 being entirely dependent on enemy match up, and even then it's sometimes not worth the sacrifice. She doesn't need the excess wave clear from Shiv when she already has Hurricane mini rockets, it's just an option if she needs pushing power for her team.

Oh, and she doesn't normally get 3 AA kills unless she's fed, her target is underfed, or she gets ally buffs like a Sona Q or something.

MuffledGarbageJun 7, 20171 votes

Well actually Yorick with item 3078 and 5 item 3053 can oneshot carries with Q... but GL getting close to them at any point in the game

And Mordekaiser with that same build does 14000 damage using his Q and spellblade which is enough to oneshot most tanks...

But those aren't realistic tbh.

SIDENOTE: Morde can actually do more than 14000 damage with his Q by using his Q then using spellblade for every instance of auto.

BeatzBoyFTWJun 8, 20171 votes

What's even a Yorick?

Bouncemaster ZacJun 6, 20176 votes

{quoted}

No, that is a clear exagguration.

If you die in one auto, you're doing something horribly wrong. Hell even two autos. Very rarely do I get a kill with just 3 autos at that point in the game (If it does happen, the enemy carry is a complete idiot.). If he's running at you with an MS boost, hes throwing up a flag HEY IM COMING. HIT ME. Your team has to be very slow minded to miss that opportunity.

Also he's been throwing those autos at level 1 since his release. He's only being complained about now because of DD, which to me isn't even a problem. It only lets him survive a little easier.

There's no exaggeration whatsoever. Draven is now and has always been the "kills other carries in one auto" carry. At level 18 before Runes/Masteries Draven has 108 AD by default. With a full-on crit build: item 3072 item 3031 item 3006 item 3087 item 3094 item 3036 he ends up at 303 AD with 2.5x crit damage. His crit auto will do 707 plus 257(85% total AD) from Q plus 300 from shiv proc crit plus 400 from rfc proc crit for a grand total of 1,664 damage from one auto. Without Runes, Masteries, or any in-match buffs like a Janna shield or Infernal Drake. Adding those extra bonuses in he easily breaks one-shot territory against other carries. It isn't an exaggeration; Draven kills carries in a single, unavoidable auto in late-game. If you're taking 3 or more autos to kill carries at 6 items when you're playing Draven, either you're bad at Draven or your build is bad. Period.

EDIT: Turns out League's own site is hilariously out of date and max Q isn't +85% total AD. It's plus 105% with an extra flat 50. So that 257 up there should be 384, an extra 130 higher than what I initially stated. So yeah, 1900 off one auto. A literal oneshot.

TheorcheroJun 7, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bouncemaster Zac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rNIvwieA,comment-id=00000000000000010000000000000001,timestamp=2017-06-06T23:19:53.390+0000)

There's no exaggeration whatsoever. Draven is now and has always been the "kills other carries in one auto" carry. At level 18 before Runes/Masteries Draven has 108 AD by default. With a full-on crit build: he ends up at 303 AD with 2.5x crit damage. His crit auto will do 707 plus 257(85% total AD) from Q plus 300 from shiv proc crit plus 400 from rfc proc crit for a grand total of 1,664 damage from one auto. Without Runes, Masteries, or any in-match buffs like a Janna shield or Infernal Drake. Adding those extra bonuses in he easily breaks one-shot territory against other carries. It isn't an exaggeration; Draven kills carries in a single, unavoidable auto in late-game. If you're taking 3 or more autos to kill carries at 6 items when you're playing Draven, either you're bad at Draven or your build is bad. Period.

Without third-party intervention (infernal drakes, huge ad buffs from janna)

1,664 dmg is not enough to oneshot anyone at lvl 18, especially because 700 of that is magic damage and gets reduced by 30-40% by base mr, not including the physical damage that gets reduced as well.

Bouncemaster ZacJun 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Without third-party intervention (infernal drakes, huge ad buffs from janna)

1,664 dmg is not enough to oneshot anyone at lvl 18, especially because 700 of that is magic damage and gets reduced by 30-40% by base mr, not including the physical damage that gets reduced as well.

Carries have low base MR and Armor and scale exactly 0 MR per level. Example: Level 18 Ashe, also with no peripherals has 1,949 hp and 82.4 armor roughly 40% physical reduction, and 30 MR about 30% magic reduction.. We're looking at 1700 off a single auto with no peripherals. Just items and his base AD. In this no peripherals scenario Draven's auto is 1000 physical 700 magic rounded. After base Armor/MR we get 600 phys. and 350 magic. Still breaking 1k, and still half the target's max hp. So two autos rather than one. Draven can have two axes queued, so no axe-catching or meaningful mechanical skill required. Just one more auto, and this build has 110% bonus AS, plus the 65% from Blood Rush, easily breaking 2.0 AS.

Anyone above level 30 (and especially ADC mains) are gonna have a full Rune/Mastery set-up. If they're a Draven main there's a good chance there's some combination of AD, Lethality, Crit Damage, and/or AS in there. The other carry will be running something similar (of course most ADs still take the 9 flat armor so there's that.) But either way, offense outweighs defense here by a lot. Ultimately, I admit, it probably won't be 100% of their max hp without extenuating circumstances (an Infernal Drake lead, Baron bonus AD, etc.) but dropping easily 1300-1400 out of their base 1900 on the first auto; with a second axe ready, no axe-catching required and 2.0+ AS, it's way too high. Not to mention, we're assuming they'll be on even footing. They usually won't. Immense in-lane damage and a gold-gen passive mean Draven is usually always ahead. The long and short of it is, he does too much damage for how forgiving the mechanic gating it is.

NineTailedMysticJun 7, 20174 votes

Carries have low base MR and Armor and scale exactly 0 MR per level.

Every champion has at least .5 MR/level now. Just saying.

RaiyzaJun 7, 20171 votes

Ok so let's just forget all about armor for this one guys.

You do know that the high damage is what Riot intended right? It's the same concept as Twitch being able to melt entire teams once late game comes. That's the WHOLE POINT of ADCs. If your team is letting Draven melt you like that, again, youre doing something wrong. Either your tank is being a complete idiot, or nobody has any sense of positioning. Asssassins are a good way of killing draven.

Draven is not to be 1v1d late game. Common knowledge. No ADC should be 1v1d late game except by Champs like Fiora.

Bouncemaster ZacJun 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Ok so let's just forget all about armor for this one guys.

You do know that the high damage is what Riot intended right? It's the same concept as Twitch being able to melt entire teams once late game comes. That's the WHOLE POINT of ADCs. If your team is letting Draven melt you like that, again, youre doing something wrong. Either your tank is being a complete idiot, or nobody has any sense of positioning. Asssassins are a good way of killing draven.

Draven is not to be 1v1d late game. Common knowledge. No ADC should be 1v1d late game except by Champs like Fiora.

Yeah no, he has far too easy a time doing it. He's supposed to be mechanically intensive, but the axe mechanic is incredibly forgiving even if you're terrible at it. You can have two queued up at a time and press q again the instant you drop one meaning you get a minimum of 3 without needing to catch any. RFC puts his first auto at 700 range which is safe enough to nuke most people or harass the front liner since he'll have Pen by that point. And nah, Draven > Assassins that are even with him in gold. They go in, he cc's them and one-taps them. It's not a matter of trying to 1v1 him deliberately. It's a matter of it being too easy for him to just de-exist someone with no effort or thought required. Also it's funny you should mention Twitch since he's objectively broken right now, for exactly what you described.

AtheosisXJun 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Ok so let's just forget all about armor for this one guys.

You do know that the high damage is what Riot intended right? It's the same concept as Twitch being able to melt entire teams once late game comes. That's the WHOLE POINT of ADCs. If your team is letting Draven melt you like that, again, youre doing something wrong. Either your tank is being a complete idiot, or nobody has any sense of positioning. Asssassins are a good way of killing draven.

Draven is not to be 1v1d late game. Common knowledge. No ADC should be 1v1d late game except by Champs like Fiora.

What is this nonsense? ADC's are not a duelist class minus a few exceptions. Assassins in particular are supposed to 1v1 ADC's at all stages of the game. ADC's are designed for fighting with the support of their team and for taking turrets.

RaiyzaJun 7, 20171 votes

You didn't read my post at all did you?

I literally said Assassins are good to kill Draven. i never once said Draven is a duelist, however, if caught alone with him then you should be expecting high damage. ADCs are designed to pump high damage quickly. I'm talking about late game, so of course, ADCs can do fine in 1v1 situations, but against classes like bruisers and fighters, they are likely to lose.

As I said earlier, Draven is susceptible to ALL dangers that ADCs face. Just because his damage is high doesnt mean hes invincible.

EddardStark84Jun 6, 20172 votes

{quoted}

That's a positioning problem then brah. The carry shouldnt be anywhere near draven.

You can stop now. There's being wrong.. and there's being hard headed while being so.

RaiyzaJun 7, 20173 votes

Right, because a carry being out of position isn't a bad thing.

How is that being hard headed? How am I wrong? There's no doubt that a carry running into a full build draven will die. Unless it's an Ahri that lands a charm first.

King LeBongJun 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Ive played against a draven that went IE SHIV and it was just as bad.

Yes DD is broken and it needs a slight nerf (30% > 20% on the passive), but draven is also broken by himself.

Funny how this wouldn't be said before when Draven was shit without the Deaths dance build lol

It's a straight fact that Deaths Dance made him less skillful and stronger. Draven himself is not broken and is still the same shitty passive reliant champ.