" yeah we are doing baron" "600 AD Jhins approaches with his forth shot plus rapid fire cannon" "My smite deals 1000 hp,should be easy" "Jhin steals baron with a 1600 damage basic attack from 800 units away" ...
OtterlyLost99 votesWell, sounds like no ability did more damage than smite to baron. That was his fourth AA.
Starcraft243ver27 votesI mean ... he's not wrong ...
FilDaFunk3 votesCould argue it's his passive.
Automated Riven68 votescounter arguement. Smite should not be the be all and end all for objective control. Gameplay should matter too.
Psyrix3 votesThis on soooo many levels lol
Andrey034514 votes[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rFFfELJJ,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-08-16T15:05:24.063+0000)
counter arguement. Smite should not be the be all and end all for objective control. Gameplay should matter too.
But you already need to smite it very well timed. And enemy team has a jungler too. And a single ability (or aa, like in this case) should not be a better burst than jungler's whole summoner spell which is designed to execute monsters.
Automated Riven13 votesWell in this specific case I don't even understand how the hell it happened. I play in silver/gold elo. And that shit just doesn't happen in my games. So much shit has to be executed extremely poorly in order for jhin to steal Baron.
The team taking Baron has to allow jhin to simply auto something three times, DPS down the Baron to 1600 hp or so and let him walk up or flash in and kill it?
That means that the team taking Baron either just didn't respect it, didn't have proper vision control, didn't have aan advantage, or was trolling.
If you can't zone a squishy adc off of Baron while you are taking it then you don't deserve to have it because you didn't properly set up for it.
Tldr. Gameplay matters. The OP complaining straight up messed up and is complaining cause he doesn't understand macro play to the extent he should.
JRobin311 votesTL;DR: Baron steals never happen in your games because of your team's perfect game play? [sg-lux-2]
I guess it also doesn't matter that you can't win a red or blue buff contest with your smite...
'How did that even happen'?
Automated Riven3 votesI'm not saying that smite shouldn't deal tons of damage to Baron/dragon/buffs. Nor am I saying that my barons never get stolen. They just don't get stolen by something as stupidly easy to counter as a jhin AA. Random spell from fog of war/or even from vision with a mistimed smite, sure. Or sometimes we get cocky and try to sneak Baron and get wiped or the jungler flashes and outsmites. It happenes. However if I, or anyone else on my team sees jhin prepping for a 4th shot we either burst Baron or stop DPS to stop him from taking it. Or we just kill him. Could it happen to me in the future? Sure. We all fuck up sometimes. However if it happened to me my response would be "damn I suck" not 'everythig needs to be nerfed so I don't have to improve.
JRobin311 votesDoes the same thing apply if the Jhin is the one doing Baron and you are trying to steal it from him? Or do you merely object to the attitude and not the principle?
Automated Riven2 votesI object to both. Skills doing more the smite is completely fine. And it matters not on whom is going to attempt Baron. The point is that gameplay matters far more then the actual damage of smite.
JRobin311 votesAt the end of the day someone has to decide how much damage smite does and why. I could say it doesn't matter how much damage Jhin's Auto attacks do. I could say it doesn't matter how much damage Cho'Gath's Feast does. Saying 'it doesn't matter how much damage smite does' seems to me like it doesn't address the issue. What is the proper role of smite in the game?
Automated Riven3 votesSmite is for objective control. However that doesn't mean that it has to deal so much damage that junglers are the only way it can be taken if they are in the area. It is very dificult for a skill or auto attack to out damage smite. And most of them are very telegraphed.
Just because smite is for objective control doesn't mean that there should not be any way to out damage it.
The argument here from the OP is that nothing should outdamage smite in the game ever. Which means it's incumbent on nobody to play well except the jungler and it's gaurenteed. That's just stupid. Every ability that out damages smite can be played around. And they are all fine.
JRobin311 votesSmite is for jungle objective control. Thank You.
The thing is, Baron can and has been stolen with a Janna Q against smite (in pro play no less) among other abilities and autos that do less damage than smite. Baron has also been stolen when the enemy jungler smites it instead. You seem to think this is just stupid. I can argue that proper game play keeps both the enemy jungler and Janna from stealing Baron... therefore it does matter how much damage smite does.
In principle, it makes more sense that smite do more damage than individual champion abilities (or auto attacks) do to a jungle objective rather than smite doing less damage than champion abilities and auto attacks. If you aren't using your smite for objective control, but are using another champion ability or auto attack instead... then we have to ask the question as to why this champion auto attack or ability should have greater priority on jungle objective control than smite has. And there isn't any good reason for a Jhin auto attack to have greater priority on jungle objective control.
If a Jhin and a jungler are approaching Baron, the higher priority for stopping a steal should be the jungler, not the Jhin.
Automated Riven3 votesFIrst off. I dont care how much damage smite does. Misstiming it will result in it getting stolen some of the time (janna q) however proper gameplay matters. it say smite did 2000 damage instead of 1000. Now it out damages everything. But now gameplay doesnt matter as much. The point of smite is to do secure objectives, true. but how many abilities deal more damage, to an objective, instantly.
3 that I know of, kalista rend cho ult and nunu consume. kalista requires set up and the rest are instant cast.
Now take other abilities that arent instant that can deal smite levels and above to the baron/dragon. Well ziggs ult and obviously jhin 4th auto. maybe a super farmed viegar w and nasus q. But all of these can be played around. ziggs ult shows before. If you have proper vision control jhin has to flash into the pit without even knowing how much HP baron has, or walk up to the front. Both ways you can stop him.
Complaining about skills which are easilly played around. (basically everything I mentioned. (melee threats can be zoned and ranged threats can be stalled.)) This is a matter of getting better at the game. Not inbalance. And making changes that make smite the highest damage ability to objectives in the game just guts the skill level of the game. Riot has already made way too many changes for people who refuse to learn how to play and thats why most people hate the state of the game now.
JRobin311 votesSo what is the proper role of smite in the game (or should smite even be in the game)?
You say it's for objective control, but also say it's stupid when 'it's incumbent on nobody to play well except the jungler and it's guaranteed', which we know is not the case when damage is less than what smite deals.
You claim to object to the principle that smite should do more damage than any single ability or auto attack to a jungle objective, but also say you 'don't care how much damage smite does'.
Does smite have a role in the game? And, if so, why does the damage smite does 'not matter' when it seems clear that for smite to exist in the game it has to do some amount of damage?
It seems like you are saying it doesn't matter because you never play 50-50 Barons in your games and you even appear to be claiming that it is 'balanced' because there aren't any 50-50 Barons (although you do admit Baron can be stolen from you), or that because there aren't very many abilities in the game that do more damage than smite, it is balanced. This seems strange to me (both that it's balanced because 50-50 Barons aren't played and that it's balanced because the number of abilities that out damage smite is few).
So someone's playing and it seems like the choice is:
A. Use your smite to secure the jungle objective. or B. Back off of Baron because Jhin is better at securing the jungle objective.
And we all know that the OP should've backed off of Baron, because, obviously, in that game he lost the Baron to Jhin. But you're saying, it's balanced that Jhin is better able to secure the objective than the jungler with smite is able to secure it even though the role of smite is to secure the jungle objective, because Jhin's ability to secure it can be 'played around' (of course, it can't always be played around, is it just too bad in those cases, 'it matters not on whom is going to attempt Baron').
P.S. I agree that RIOT shouldn't make changes just to satisfy players who refuse to learn to play. That's an interesting perspective to take here.
Automated Riven1 votesSo what is the proper role of smite in the game (or should smite even be in the game)?
You say it's for objective control, but also say it's stupid when 'it's incumbent on nobody to play well except the jungler and it's guaranteed', which we know is not the case when damage is less than what smite deals.
You claim to object to the principle that smite should do more damage than any single ability or auto attack to a jungle objective, but also say you 'don't care how much damage smite does'.
Does smite have a role in the game? And, if so, why does the damage smite does 'not matter' when it seems clear that for smite to exist in the game it has to do some amount of damage?
It seems like you are saying it doesn't matter because you never play 50-50 Barons in your games and you even appear to be claiming that it is 'balanced' because there aren't any 50-50 Barons (although you do admit Baron can be stolen from you), or that because there aren't very many abilities in the game that do more damage than smite, it is balanced. This seems strange to me (both that it's balanced because 50-50 Barons aren't played and that it's balanced because the number of abilities that out damage smite is few).
So someone's playing and it seems like the choice is: or
And we all know that the OP should've backed off of Baron, because, obviously, in that game he lost the Baron to Jhin. But you're saying, it's balanced that Jhin is better able to secure the objective than the jungler with smite is able to secure it even though the role of smite is to secure the jungle objective, because Jhin's ability to secure it can be 'played around' (of course, it can't always be played around, is it just too bad in those cases, 'it matters not on whom is going to attempt Baron').
P.S. I agree that RIOT shouldn't make changes just to satisfy players who refuse to learn to play. That's an interesting perspective to take here.
The point is, FIrstly that while smite is for objective control, it serves its purpose when combined with gameplay to secure barons. It, combined with gameplay, will end up with your objective being secured. Because the only ability which can actually steal the objective, without being zoned off, is ziggs ult (which deal more damage then smite) However there is plenty of warning before that happends.
Smite will outdamage things like ezreal ult, ashe arrow, jinx ult, and so on. These are the abilities which cannot be 'zoned out of baron' because they have extremely high range and as such smite should out damage them. However, every individual ability does not need to be measured by the same metrics. Because there is diferent counterplay to a nunu who wants to consume in melee range and a lux ult which is 3500 range away (not sure on the actual range btw) and nunu has far more counterplay. Now all of that being said, we still arent counting that smite is a measurable instant cast nuke for objectives. Which makes it far more reliable then other types of damage. Lets say for example that ezreal ult dealt 2k damage to baron after resistances. It 'technically could' secure baron better then smite. But ezreal ulti has a cast time and a travel time which means he has to start the cast before baron even hits the 2k mark by a wide margin. there will be times where it takes baron without any 'counterplay' but it would still be rare. Because with 5 people dpsing thats a .25-.5 second window where the ez ult can come through before smite goes off.
So TLDR whether smite does 500 damage or 2000 damage it really doesnt matter. IT will still be used for objective control because its instant cast mesurable damage. (meaning static and not reducable) and when paired with proper gameplay will net 99% of objectives (probably higher but I am accounting for misplays where you mis smite and the ez ulti steals it) The point I have is that nerfing everything because someone played badly and got baron stolen is why the game sucks in the first place.
The reason the game is focused into a group mid and fight for baron meta, is in part because low elos refused to learn how to play macro and so riot gutted all the macro comps. When low elo looked at the mini map just in time to see the splitpsuher hit the nexus towers. Thats an issue with low elo being bad, not tryndemere being overpowered.
JRobin311 votesHmm. It seems that these other high damage abilities get used to secure the objective instead of smite despite the fact that smite is instant cast certain damage.
If RIOT made changes to macro game to force mid game Baron fights to satisfy low ELO players, then it seems that RIOT isn't really in touch with the needs of low ELO players.
Personally, I think they ought to make Baron more of a late game objective as opposed to a mid-game objective. I think taking Baron should be signalling that the game will end soon, so it doesn't make sense to make it a mid game objective.
Automated Riven1 votesThere are only three abilities sans smite which get used to secure Baron/dragon. That would be kalista rend, Cho ult and nunu ult. Two of the three are intended to be used as such. Kalistas is the only anamoly here. Nobody saves jhin fourth shot and uses ziggs ult to help one's own team secure Baron. If that was the case that these champs were getting picked for their objective control (they aren't) then I would probably be forced to admit to a design problem.
The point again boils down to the nescecity to fix one's own play before complaining about the balance. IE when something like this happens it would be far more useful for the OP to simply rewatch the game and analyze it thinking things like. 'how could I/we have prevented this? How was this made possible? Was there any reasonable counterplay available that my team did not use?' and so on. If at the end of such querys the OP is still concerned it's overpowered he should probably come here asking how to counter it, in the event he overlooked something. And then once he is enlightened on the appropriate counterplay, learn from it and get better.
Now, all of that being said. I don't agree with Baron being a late game objective. I don't like Baron in the state it currently is because it IS a late game objective that spawns 20 minutes in the game. Baron simply is the win game button. And it constricts the meta so that contesting Baron is a must and there realistically isn't much counterplay against the team who has Baron.
Now the issue that Baron was supposed to solve was teams endlessly clearing waves until 60 minutes when both teams mutually agreed it was time to Duke it out one last time to decide the winner of the game. The issue is that they did it wrong. Now people have been screaming for tower buffs for almost two years now, because the game (partly due to how powerful Baron is) feels like it has no 'comeback' option. Meaning when you fall behind the onus is on your opponents to fuck up rather then you to make good plays and come back. (note. I am not saying that is 100% true or that they are mutually exclusive, just that the perception is there)
How can we fix that? Tbh I have no clue. But personally I think it's far more into raising the complexity and skill ceiling of the game rather then lowering the skill floor.
For example. I would like them to remove jungle timers from ranked play. Tbh IMHO ranked should have absolutely zero training wheels. It should be about who can master the game and so people who can track jungle timers get an edge. People who track summoners get an edge. And so on. I want Baron to be less powerful and to have a specific niche. Maybe a weaker Baron buff to minions, however it only applies if one champion is in each lane. (so it facilitates splitting and multi lane pressure over grouping and shoving) and then elder dragon would be what you prioritize if you wanna teamfight.)
I want to see anything that opens new strategies and raises the skill ceiling. I want the creative teamcomps back from early seasons. However I am ranting now.
TLDR stop lowering the skill ceiling and asking for it to be lowered. It ruins the game. The current snowball, grab Baron win game meta is a direct result of tons of changes directly implemented for casual players. Those changes need to stop.
It Hertz When IP3 votes[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rFFfELJJ,comment-id=000700010000,timestamp=2018-08-16T20:06:00.896+0000)
didn't have proper vision control,
This by itself is the biggie. Unless we're talking a battle happening at Baron, at which point a stray CC could have screwed over that jungler just as much, just drop some freaking wards behind and outside the pit. It's not hard.
Divewing1 votesIm fine with things being equal, but greater just removes agency from the jungler unfairly
Automated Riven2 votesits not about the jungler or smite. Its about map control/vision control/pressure/tempo/ who is alive and who isnt.
NatsuD452 votesA single summoner spell should not be a better burst than a champion's kit which is designed to execute enemies
Andrey03451 votesA single summoner spell should not be a better burst than a champion's kit which is designed to execute enemies
"A single summoner spell" - that's a summoner spell, which was made to execute monsters, and I'm pretty sure it was in Riot's plans to make it a single best burst to Baron with 1000 true damage.
"a champion's kit" - all I see here is a single autoattack and it outdamaged 1000 true dmg by 600, physical damage, which means that number itself was much higher.
I don't think Jhin's kit was designed to execute enemies, all it has for execution is his %miss hp dmg on 4th aa and 4th ult shot. I agree that it got quite a big number with Baron being below 2k hp but still, it's quite ridiculous because you always could hear "don't start wait for jg" because it's quite obvious that jungler will have to secure it with his smite. And here we are - adcs/mages easily outdamaging high true damage number with their insane physical/magical damage while don't forget that Baron has a decent armor/mr which should counter that in order for jungler to be a meaningful player in taking objectives.
Psyrix1 votesConsidering Jhin functions differently from most ad champs, the nature of the auto is indeed part of his kit. The only way Jhin had a chance of out damaging a smite (true dmg) on Baron is if he has the 4th shot ready, and if the Baron is low.... it IS an EXECUTE. Smite is not an execute, it’s a summonerspell designed to aid in jungleclear and jungle presence. Summoner spells are not by nature supposed to be the ultimate dmg/utility spell. They are supplemental abilities everyone has the chance to have access to. They shouldn’t, by themselves, define how something is carried out. It is a gameplay strategy that can be played around. Having smite doesn’t and shouldn’t mean you automatically win the objective. It’s just “big burst on monsters to help secure the objective”. Just as you would play around another opponent with smite by either stalling baron or turning on them, u do the same against champs with big burst.
NatsuD451 votes"A single summoner spell" - that's a summoner spell, which was made to execute monsters, and I'm pretty sure it was in Riot's plans to make it a single best burst to Baron with 1000 true damage.
"a champion's kit" - all I see here is a single autoattack and it outdamaged 1000 true dmg by 600, physical damage, which means that number itself was much higher.
I don't think Jhin's kit was designed to execute enemies, all it has for execution is his %miss hp dmg on 4th aa and 4th ult shot. Isn't that literally what classifies as an execution?? bonus damage based on % missing health is execution, when you have that on 2 ability passives and another ability that does more damage based on enemies that are killed with it, i think a champs kit is execution. Jhin is the one of the few (if not the only) adc that can get ad levels higher than 400, usually much higher, and most mages don't get ap much higher than 600-700 (unless they build rabadons), and when you have ad or ap that high, armor/mr doesn't make much of a difference. Unless you're confident in your smite, you probably shouldnt be continuing baron while you have a champ with those stats.
ValiantKiller24 votes
BLIGHTBRINGER4 votesYou forgot old 
ValiantKiller3 votes[{quoted}](name=Darkin Hybrid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rFFfELJJ,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-08-16T15:34:24.552+0000)
You forgot old
You said it, old lol
Pika Fox22 votesSays who? Some champions are supposed to be better at claiming mobs than others. If the jhin was close enough to baron and held his 4th for baron and you didnt CC or kill him, he deserved that baron.
CloudedLogic8 votesThis is a good point, you can stop most abilities with CC, I don't think you can stop smite with it though.
QmegaSquadVeigar20 votesHis 4th shot does 15% of someone's missing hp so...
JohnnyNeverSins10 votesHis 4th shot does 15% of someone's missing hp so...
So freaking cap it or something...he can steal it behind the freaking wall with rapid..
QmegaSquadVeigar3 votes[{quoted}](name=Voidstaff Wetsme,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rFFfELJJ,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-08-16T15:09:04.652+0000)
So freaking cap it or something...he can steal it behind the freaking wall with rapid..
My WQ can do 2200 dmg to baron with 1400 ap so...
LTK KoRo3 votesI agree, we should nerf Veigar too, as hard as possible
QmegaSquadVeigar3 votes[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rFFfELJJ,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2018-08-16T20:08:02.133+0000)
I agree, we should nerf Veigar too, as hard as possible
You walked into the wrong neighborhood bud.
Thefrostyviking4 votesMake the entire map just slightly bigger so Jhin cant shot it like that :P
sir d wreck4 votesIs your name supposed to be "The Frosty Viking" or "The Frosty Vi King"?
Thefrostyviking8 votesDepends on whenever i am currently playing Vi and how well i am doing.
NiceTryVi1 votesI like it
CloudedLogic11 votesDoesn't 
have a 150 unit hard cap? IIRC Jhin's auto range is 550 so with RFC that would be 700 units not 800.
jocomotion11 votesWell, some champions should.
: because it’s his main gameplay mechanic.
: because it’s his ultimate
: since she has to stack spears in order to pull it off
SanKakU7 votesThis is why you sometimes have to cancel trying to smite it and go get the opposing team away from the objective.
Nyarlathοtep6 votesBut thats not an ability. :/
aaaustindestroy16 votesMaybe control the objective properly and make sure that Jhin isn't able to get to it? Smite isn't the final judge and shouldn't be. Maybe playing right would help ...
Sire Hippington5 votesEntierly different opinion: The entier concept of last hit wins it all is bullshit for objectives and we should learn from HotS how it's done.
Bobloser35552 voteshow is it done there? the last hit has a lot of excitement to it so I dont necessarily think its a bad idea.
Sire Hippington5 votesIt's king of the hill style, after takeing down the boss(or any merc camp), you have a small zone on the ground and if you stay in it with no opponents for a couple of seconds, you get it. This means you not only have to take down the objective, but also controll the area after that and you have no random bullshit like an EZ ult stealing it crossmap. It also adds more vlaue to frontliners as they ae better for keeping that position, while you still want some dps dudes to bring down the boss at first.
Pandemic Punch4 votesIt is good that there are abilities that are stronger than smite. It is bad if too many champions have those abilities.