Lee Sin is being protected by Riot for the exact reverse reason Azir was brutalised.

Divewing·Jan 12, 2017·249 votes·12,801 views

The fact that Riot has said that they won't nerf Lee because they want him in pro play proves that they don't give a damn if he breaks solo q in any shape or form.

Yet Azir was crippled for breaking pro play to be playable in solo q. Which ended up in him being non-viable in both.

Funny thing is though even if Riot saw this... It wouldn't matter or change anything would it? Lee is always going to be the spoiled little brat-shit of the game.

222 Comments

Warbird001Jan 12, 201737 votes

I would just be happy if LeeSin 's Q had a REAL energy cost attached to it. Considering its one of the fastest cooldown and Lee can just spam it. There is no punishment for missing it at all. Poor Shen , he seems to be the only champion with any real energy costs these days.

LooknookJan 12, 20176 votes

It you even barely mess up your combo as Shen it is just like, poof no energy.

YumaS2AstralJan 12, 20178 votes

I would be happy if Lee Sin's ult had a real cooldown.

Currently it has one of the lowest cooldowns, if not the lowest cooldown compared to many other jungler's ults. Yet his ult has more impact than many of them and has no cost.

I would like to know why it is so hard for Riot to just increase his ult's cooldown.

ChlululuJan 12, 20173 votes

omg i know when i first played lee when he was free last week (i think) i looked at his ult its like a 80 sec cd at lvl 6? thats kinda extreme imo it surprised me.

Packun FlowerJan 12, 201733 votes

They just nerfed lee though?

Touch My BoxJan 12, 201794 votes

{quoted}

They just nerfed lee though?

Long overdue and can barely be called a nerf.

SkorchJan 12, 201730 votes

This angers me so much, you people beg for MONTHS for people to nerf him and they give him a fairly decent nerf and its "NOT ENOUGH RIOT" not every god damn champ in the game is either "INSANELY BROKEN LOOK AT THE PLAYS" or "This champ was GUTTED for NO REASON, Riot just HATES the mains of these champs"

Touch My BoxJan 12, 201775 votes

{quoted}

This angers me so much, you people beg for MONTHS for people to nerf him and they give him a fairly decent nerf and its "NOT ENOUGH RIOT" not every god damn champ in the game is either "INSANELY BROKEN LOOK AT THE PLAYS" or "This champ was GUTTED for NO REASON, Riot just HATES the mains of these champs"

Fairly decent? Are you kidding? Shaco is played for 3 days and he gets a bigger nerf, but Lee Sin can be king of the jungle since his release and they barely touch him. They openly admitted that he needs more nerfs but they won't give it to him because of his impact in competitive. All we ask is for them to be fair and not try to pick favorites or enforce the meta by under-nerfing becuase of a play rate.

ZedexJan 12, 201722 votes

Ah. Shaco player mad that Lee and Shaco are two entirely different champions, but for some reason they don't get the same treatment.

This makes total sense.

PermabannedGarenJan 12, 201746 votes

[{quoted}](name=Its Not Shacko,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rEdmjcz4,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-12T11:08:05.493+0000)

Fairly decent? Are you kidding? Shaco is played for 3 days and he gets a bigger nerf, but Lee Sin can be king of the jungle since his release and they barely touch him. They openly admitted that he needs more nerfs but they won't give it to him because of his impact in competitive. All we ask is for them to be fair and not try to pick favorites or enforce the meta by under-nerfing becuase of a play rate.

Shaco was stronger than Lee Sin was when he was nerfed.

He's still stronger than Lee Sin, after the nerf.

Stop whining (I know this is hard for you, as a Shaco main) and try to be objective.

DracocrashJan 12, 201714 votes

Savage.

GULAG 4 UJan 12, 20176 votes

Permabanned garen with the fucking shots fired again, lit

NymzoJan 12, 201745 votes

First of all, the damage is barely the thing that makes him stupid. His ult roots the victim just to be sure he or she doesn't flash out.

He has 2 gapclosers that can also be use for escape.

He is also the only energy bar champion who never seems to be out of energy.

He can reveals all stealths champions with the single press of a fucking button.

He also has 6 base abilities, do you know who also has 6 base abilities? These champions: Gnar , Nidalee , Elise , Jayce . What make these champions ''balance'' in some way, it's because their sacrifice an ultimate for an additional form and abilities (aside from Gnar who has an ultimate but he does not transform at will unlike the others).

But Lee? No requirement aside that the other 3 abilities can only be used after he used the first 3 spells which is super easy to do considiring his kit.

Also, Lee is a special fucking case because unlike other MOBA, Riot has decided that the decision of which champion is viable in a position or not, for instance the jungle, would be decided by who can hold their grounds against Lee.

If this is not the dumbest decision ever decided, I don't know what this is.

TheGr8WhiteDJan 12, 20174 votes

Lee can no longer reveal stealthed champions with E. That was added this patch along with the ult damage nerf.

NymzoJan 12, 20172 votes

Yes, I knew about that but unless I'm an idiot, I'm pretty sure his q still does it (because it reveals the target hitted by the q)

Unless they also changed it before, then in that case I'm talking about of my ass for this one.

Edit: After verification, we were both wrong. He no longer reveals invisible champions, but not for camouflage champs tho.

DrCyanideJan 12, 20172 votes

If a camouflaged champion is close enough to Lee Sin's E to be revealed they were visible anyway.

If they're revealed by his Q then there are other abilities (mostly stuns) that would have shown their location too.

Dominick DestineJan 12, 20172 votes

{quoted}

If they're revealed by his Q then there are other abilities (mostly stuns) that would have shown their location too.

As an Evelynn main, I don't remember being revealed by any stuns .

I'm thinking of stuns like Ashe's arrow where range would not affect detection, but maybe I just didn't notice. I will look closer next time but I am leaning towards "You cannot be knocked out of camo by damage or disables".

DrCyanideJan 13, 20172 votes

You're not revealed to targeted spells or auto attacks, true.

However, for skillshot heavy champions (like Xerath) the stun hitting something is a pretty clear indicator to fire everything that's not on cooldown at the point the stun collided with the stealthed target then run like mad away from it.

I know that camo has also left odd shadows of the champion behind every once in a while, almost like a single frame of the ghost animation. I suspect there's a way to use that to get an even better idea where they are, but from what I've seen it only shows up ~1.5 second after you last saw them.

bill84Jan 12, 20174 votes

Ok, I don't like Lee either, but this six ability argument makes no sense. Like imagine if they removed a half of one of the abilities like his q, so that he just shoots a little thing at you that does very little damage and that's it?

NymzoJan 12, 201710 votes

I don't think you understand how powerful it is to have 7 abilities on a single champion.

Having more abilities mean that in a single rotation, you will end up doing more dmg that someone with only 4 spells.

At least most transformation champions are AD or have AD scaling like Gnar aside from Nidalee and Elise, of course.

I can guarantee you that if Riot would introduce a brand new burst mage who has 7 abilities with a transformation ult, no matter what it is, it would be fucking busted (you can look at Nidalee for a ''good''example). Because burst mage like Syndra and Veigar need their ult to 100-0 someone (maybe not at late game, but still).

But let's go back to Lee, shall we?

Let me do something here: imagine that Riot would ''rework'' Lee sin by deleting the projectile and his q would only be a point and click dash. Same range that the q projectile, just the dash now.

Sure, his insec would be less predictable since you would never know if he will engage or not. However, this is also a nerf because you just lost an ability that does dmg. Does that mean Lee would be fucking useless? Of course not, that would be just a nerf and I'm pretty sure we could say almost the same thing for the second w and the second e.

Oh btw, ''the little thing'' is probably the second most lethal spell on his kit, just behind his kick.

EROTIC RAID BOSSJan 12, 20173 votes

uhhhhhhhhhh no? if each of the 6 abilities does half damage then you aren't doing extra damage lol. in what world do you live in where lee sin tops damage charts? what a stupid argument. its not like 7 abilities makes elise unfair?

there's nothing wrong with lee's design, he was just OP for a few patches because of jungle changes.

NymzoJan 13, 20174 votes

if each of the 6 abilities does half damage then you aren't doing extra damage lol

Why would the 6 abilities would do half the dmg? That's not an argument, you are just trying to show something and I don't get it at all. Do you mean having 3 abilities that do full dmg or having 6 abilities that do half is equal? If so, what's the point? My point was that most champions that have more than 5 abilities are champion that sacrifice an ultimate for more spells. Lee doesn't

in what world do you live in where lee sin tops damage charts?

In what world did you read that? I never said that. If you mean when I talk about the q, it's because of the missing health on it.

what a stupid argument

Ikr

Oh you mean mine, not yours.

I'm pretty sure reading my whole posts would help a bit, no?

its not like 7 abilities makes elise unfair?

Again, where the fuck did I said that?

there's nothing wrong with lee's design, he was just OP for a few patches because of jungle changes.

Wrong, Lee has a failed design and for a good reason: he has everything that a jungler needs.

Substain? Check

Good early clears? Check

Able to counter jungle and to fight back in case of invade? Check

Good Pre 6 gank? Check

Mobility? Check

Gap Closer? Check

Escape? Check

No mana issues? Check

Stealing objectives potiential? Check

Good itemisation? Check

CC? Check

Name me another jungler that can do all of these shits.

Also Lee has been dominant since his release aside from the Cinderhulk meta, everybody knows that.

EROTIC RAID BOSSJan 13, 20172 votes

"I don't think you understand how powerful it is to have 7 abilities on a single champion. Having more abilities mean that in a single rotation, you will end up doing more dmg that someone with only 4 spells."

this is mainly what i was replying to, which is like, wtf? levels of dumb.

I like how you list mobility, gap closer, and escapes as though they're all separate strenths lol. anyway a lot of junglers have many of these strenths. with the way jungle items and blue buff are designed not many junglers have mana issues, and all junglers are designed to clear the jungle fairly efficiently, but of course how efficient they are varies.

So looking at your list, its like, jungle efficiency, early gank power, offensive and defensive mobility. lots and lots of junglers have those. Off the top of my head, Vi, Kindred, new Warwick, Rek'sai, Gragas, Nidalee, Hecarim, Shaco, Kha'zix, Rengar, and Zac all have all of these things to varying degrees. They're really just core jungler traits.

NymzoJan 13, 20175 votes

this is mainly what i was replying to, which is like, wtf? levels of dumb.

Give arguments then. All you are doing is calling me dumb without even trying to prove a point. That will not help both of us.

I like how you list mobility, gap closer, and escapes as though they're all separate strenths lol.

Are they not? Mobility is how fast your character can move, gap closer is if how fast you can close up to a target and escape is your ability to get out before dying?

with the way jungle items and blue buff are designed not many junglers have mana issues

This is like saying that unmounted Kled is not slow if you use item 3142 on him : sure, it might be the case for the time of the buff but after it ran out, his weakness is still here.

and all junglers are designed to clear the jungle fairly efficiently, but of course how efficient they are varies.

... no? Some junglers have very slow clears, but have good ganks ( Zac , Rammus )

Others have excellent clears but awful ganks pre 6 like Nunu, Fiddle, Shyv.

And some have everything, but not excellent.

Off the top of my head, Vi, Kindred, new Warwick, Rek'sai, Gragas, Nidalee, Hecarim, Shaco, Kha'zix, Rengar, and Zac all have all of these things to varying degrees. They're really just core jungler traits.

Vi is really weak to invade since she has to use her escape to clear.

Kindred has her substain removed and since she's an ADC, she's really weak early game since no items and she's frail as a piece of paper. Also, slows can be barely be count as CC but it can still count if we consider it to be CC.

With the nerfs that she got, there's no way that reksai can be good at invading and counter invade.

Hecarim not having mana issues? Riiiiight

Shaco has substain now?

While Khazix has a lot of things, his escape is not guaranteed. For the time that I played, he can be quite mana hungry if you spawn too much q and w in the jungle.

Rengar has such a good escape tho. That why he dies every time he ults.

Zac has a slow to mediocre clear tho, it is far from being fast.

Forgot Gragas, mobility is not his cup of tea, I'm afraid.

Also I like how you didn't respond to half of my post.

Fondling GemsJan 13, 20172 votes

Just gonna pop in to correct one thing although I agree with you overall, Kha does have sustain on W, and I would count slows above a certain amount as decent CC. A 20% slow might now be much but when you get in the range of 60% slows that is pretty strong in terms of gank power depending on how long they last.

EROTIC RAID BOSSJan 13, 20171 votes

different champs have different strenths. lee isn't universally best at all these things either.

but, some corrections, kindred still has some sustain build into her kit, and her strength has actually always been early game. used to be the meta revolved around her since she could beat pretty much any other jungler 1v1 early game. today, its not as strong, but its her late game that isn't dependable because of marks. she's still strong early.

shaco, doesn't need sustain he has boxes, his clear is pretty healthy which is the important end result.

rengar can become CC immune and run away without that much trouble. hes more slippery than vi lol.

gragas still has a gap closer that overall gives him what I would call mobility- he can go over walls, gank with it, or escape.

I think you're just being obstinate honestly. you know I'm right lol.

oh yeah, and comparing jungler mana to ghostblade is really not fair. giving junglers mana issues is part of how you make them junglers, because of how strong mana regen is when you're jungling. for example, udyr is partly much stronger in the jungle because he'll go oom in lane using his abilities the way he'd really want to. lee sin, on the other hand, is a bad laner for other reasons. so it doesn't really matter that he doesn't use mana.

all this crying about lee sin, how easily people forget he was such a non factor for all of 2016. when his kit was exactly the same. right now hes only strong because he can get a big xp advantage that makes his early ganking power super op.

NymzoJan 13, 20172 votes

different champs have different strenths. lee isn't universally best at all these things either.

Um... yes? That is literally what I just pointed out.

but, some corrections, kindred still has some sustain build into her kit, and her strength has actually always been early game. used to be the meta revolved around her since she could beat pretty much any other jungler 1v1 early game. today, its not as strong, but its her late game that isn't dependable because of marks. she's still strong early.

With a 48.5 % win rate, I highly doubt it.

shaco, doesn't need sustain he has boxes, his clear is pretty healthy which is the important end result.

If you are in Urf mode, maybe. With a 16 sec cd, good luck staying full life after the first buff.

rengar can become CC immune and run away without that much trouble. hes more slippery than vi lol.

If Rengar didn't use all of his ferocity for killing a target then there's a problem.

gragas still has a gap closer that overall gives him what I would call mobility- he can go over walls, gank with it, or escape.

Sure but gl trying to invade with this guy or even fight an invade. Also mobility is not gap closer but whatever.

I think you're just being obstinate honestly. you know I'm right lol.

I could say the same thing about you, you know. But at least I try to bring actual arguments intead of ''I'm right, you are wrong because I say so'' or ''you are dumb''.

oh yeah, and comparing jungler mana to ghostblade is really not fair. giving junglers mana issues is part of how you make them junglers, because of how strong mana regen is when you're jungling. for example, udyr is partly much stronger in the jungle because he'll go oom in lane using his abilities the way he'd really want to. lee sin, on the other hand, is a bad laner for other reasons. so it doesn't really matter that he doesn't use mana.

I think you just don't understand what you are reading, or you don't want to.

Blue buff is a temporary buff, no matter how many times you want to say the contrary, it's a **temporary ** buff. Yes, the buff will remove the weakness for a short period of time. If you based your entire strategy on a temporary buff, you will get destroyed once the buff runs out or if you don't even have access to it in the first place.

Like, if you get invade and you lose your blue as Amumu or Fiddle, you won't even be able to do 3 camps before going back to base.

all this crying about lee sin, how easily people forget he was such a non factor for all of 2016. when his kit was exactly the same. right now hes only strong because he can get a big xp advantage that makes his early ganking power super op.

Because Reksai, Gragas and Graves were op? And once Riot nerfed all of them, they also buffed Lee sin ''because we didn't see him for a while'' instead of, you know, buffing other junglers like Sejuani?

But nooooo, let's buff Lee sin of all people because he's a playmaker.

EROTIC RAID BOSSJan 13, 20171 votes

they barely buffed him, all they did was increase his shield when he defends someone?

and blue buff lasts a long time, and you have the talisman effect regening mana... some junglers are mana hungry to the extreme, like hecarim, but most will be fine. overall I think its false to say that this is a huge advantage for lee sin.

all your other retorts are pretty laughable "if rengar ever uses empowered W hes just failing" wut. and like I even said kindred's problem is her unreliable late game scaling, not her early game so much. shes just so reliant on those marks now.

NymzoJan 13, 20172 votes

they barely buffed him, all they did was increase his shield when he defends someone?

While nerfing 3 junglers? Again, the buff was only given to Lee sin ''because he was out of the spotlight for a while'', not because he was weak and needed a buff.

and blue buff lasts a long time, and you have the talisman effect regening mana... some junglers are mana hungry to the extreme, like hecarim, but most will be fine.

Let's not mention ganks tho? The thing that you need to do and waste time on your precious blue buff?

overall I think its false to say that this is a huge advantage for lee sin.

Dude, quoting me on something that I didn't even fucking said is not an argument. Anybody can fucking see that. You just look like an idiot.

all your other retorts are pretty laughable "if rengar ever uses empowered W hes just failing"

Holy shit, this is not slightly even close to what I said.

and like I even said kindred's problem is her unreliable late game scaling, not her early game so much. shes just so reliant on those marks now.

LOL, this is not even what YOU said.

but, some corrections, kindred still has some sustain build into her kit, and her strength has actually always been early game. used to be the meta revolved around her since she could beat pretty much any other jungler 1v1 early game. **today, its not as strong, but its her late game that isn't dependable because of marks. she's still strong early. **

Holy shit dude, just get out, you just lost this discussion by a long fucking shot.

Also btw, her early game is weak but her late game is strong but unreliable because of a stack mechanic. Remind you of someone?

This guy: Nasus

DunkinNoobsJan 12, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Its Not Shacko,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rEdmjcz4,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-01-12T10:08:26.998+0000)

Long overdue and can barely be called a nerf.

Long overdue? He's been good for 3-4 months at best. It really wasn't that long ago that Lee Sin was a mediocre pick.

GayFluffyUnicornJan 12, 201721 votes

Naut and maokai were good for 2 weeks before riot gutted the shit out of them

SqueyJan 13, 20173 votes

Naut is still the best tank in the game. Has been since CoC was released. Will be for awhile considering how much damage as well as cc he has without even ulting.

DunkinNoobsJan 12, 201718 votes

Lee is breaking Solo Q? TIL.

SwaggyMcGhee420Jan 12, 20172 votes

He's pretty strong in bronze and silver, where most don't know how to play against him or abuse his late game.

TheStevenWuJan 12, 20174 votes

{quoted}

He's pretty strong in bronze and silver, where most don't know how to play against him or abuse his late game.

so you're telling me that lee is not broken. people are simply too stupid to know how to deal with him...

fortunately, games tend not to be balanced around the stupid.

Mira Arya EntheJan 12, 201717 votes

Except Azir became an unsiegable, untouchable hypercarry with too much map sway while being a lane bully. Lee has too strong of an early game then falls off the face of the earth. Lee nerfs were made stop bitching.

Luner HunterJan 12, 201715 votes

He's been that way since Season 3, welcome to the party where "It's our game we will do what we want" is their LITERAL answer to the botched Sona rework and can be assumed about other such things as Lee Sin being their golden child... i mean this is a recurring thing. Lee Sin is broke af in the jungle then tank meta came and went then Lee Sin is broke in the jungle ect ect ect ect ect [slayer-jinx-unamused]

ModAcademy KaynJan 12, 20179 votes

Okay, real fucking quick, this is not an attack on your person, nor as a player, but you are Silver 3...

And i do not mean this as "haha you suck". Lee is especially known to dominate LOWER ELO, because NO ONE knows how to frigging deal with him. Hell, Lee has always had a worse winrate in Lower Elo, despite that's where he's complained about most of the time, yet has a higher winrate at high elo, where people don't complain.

Once again, this is not "you suck, git gud", but you can not seriously analyze the problem or difference between Azir and Lee, while being in the same group that commonly complains about Lee being "OMGZ BROKEZ, RITO PLZ".

And yeah, before anyone fires back "You're only Gold 5", that doesn't discredit anything said above.

Dominick DestineJan 12, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rEdmjcz4,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2017-01-12T21:26:06.254+0000)

real fucking quick.... you are Silver 3

Riot would have deleted my comment and given me a warning if I went after a person the way you did.

Moderators, I hope you will judge this person with the same metric that you judge me.

ModAcademy KaynJan 12, 20179 votes

This is hardly within any realm of offense. I'm not attacking his character, I'm attacking his credibility of being objective about Lee Sin.

And I've seen your posts... these are realms apart in terms of offense.

Dominick DestineJan 12, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rEdmjcz4,comment-id=001b00000000,timestamp=2017-01-12T22:48:19.948+0000)

This is hardly within any realm of offense.

Whether you think is "offense" or not is irrelevant. Moderators would punish me for saying the exact same thing you typed.

I would hope they will judge your obvious violation of the summoner code as if it were me saying it. Justice is supposed to be blind.

OHminusJan 13, 20179 votes

Well, I'm sorry for this, but you're not attacking the credibility of his argument.

What I'm getting from your comments is "I DON'T LIKE HIS ARGUMENT RITO TAKE HIS COMMENT DOWN!!!"

Dextix LTJan 13, 20173 votes

Dude, its domikick, just ignore him, that is what most people do nowadays....

deadlychuckJan 12, 20175 votes

I think you're missing an important detail. Mainly when it comes to champion pools.

Some champions are actually just incapable of dealing with lee sin, not due to the lack of skill of players, but purely due to the deficit in their relative kit.

I know, you're gonna be all "well you're just a silver player too" stop, that was a hand full of games with friends who wanted to play the flex queue. I have extensive experience in the game, and my lack of desire to play ranked doesn't mean I'm somehow bad at the game, just because my nearly 6k games aren't in a particular mode.

Lee sin is broken, by having a breadth of capabilities without detracting from the depth of his core strengths. This is why he's such a problem in blind pick as well when you remove the draft process. It's not because the players are bad. It's because the ease with which the player can handle most given situations, when playing lee sin, is far greater than other champions. Randomly pick one of the 133 other champions to play against lee sin, he's more likely to have a solid answer for an important part of their kit, than another random champion.

Compared to most of the champion pool, lee sin gives equally skilled players an advantage, simply by design of his kit, as being a jack of all trades, but still a master of some.

ModAcademy KaynJan 13, 20171 votes

I will never use the Rank argument to stop discussion or as an insult, I will and have only used it as credibility for someone's arguement. It's called ethos, and in an argument, it's hard to believe the idea from someone who falls into the category listed above. (Besides, aren't you Gold?)

To the rest of your argument, it doesn't make sense. Lee Sin is an early game duelist, of course he's going to beat a majority of other picks in a 1v1 situation. But League is not a 1v1 game, it's a team game. It's the reason why Lee falls of late game, people start to group up. It becomes so much more difficult, because that frontline isn't going to simply give you access to their backline carries.

League is not a 1v1 game, and different champions have different strengths throughout the game. Lee's dominance is in early game, and as such, he is going to be best early. Take a full build Jax vs a Full build Lee Sin, and it's pretty obvious who is going to win. That's just an example, but Lee get's outclassed late game by plenty of people IF he's not ahead. If he's ahead, of course he's going to be beating people who are behind.

deadlychuckJan 13, 20173 votes

Eh, back in season 4. I put in about a week to get to gold, working against a new router which would DC about once every 2 hrs, full time school and a full time job, because i was playing a decent amount of elise at the time and wanted the free skin. So yes, I've been in gold, but I never attempted to get a higher rank.

I agree, he is a early game duelist. However, as you said, he will beat people if he's ahead, yet at the earliest point in the game, his default position is ahead of most other champions. His goal isn't to get ahead, his goal is to stay ahead from ~3:30 forwards. Which i'd personally prefer to see go, for the same reason i have an issue which i have with a few other champions. The design makes it so that most of the initiative is given to lee sin by default. It's no longer your game to win, it becomes his game to lose.

I'm not a fan of riot giving champions the initiative on a silver platter, rather than determining it based on factors of how the player farmed and how they played the first couple of minutes.

This is an issue that hearthstone fails to address and is similar in league. Early game needs to be higher risk for less reward, because there is a natural advantage which comes with having your power spike in the early game as opposed to the mid or late game. What i mean, is that a champion who is reliably going to be twice as strong in the early game, is naturally at an advantage over a champion who **will ** be twice as strong come the mid-late game.