Meddler, could you PLEASE reconsider the removal of stealth wards

Divewing·Aug 31, 2017·121 votes·3,977 views

Honestly, solo laning ever since their removal has steadily grown more and more miserable

I don't fight laners anymore.

They all just wait until the jungler shows up.

Seriously, I don't care about getting camped if I can do something about it, but without vision it's not something that provides me with any good option.

Either I have to sit under tower and lose cs, or risk moving closer to the middle of the lane to farm.

So PLEASE, in Season 8 can we have stealth wards return?

60 Comments

0 HogapuAug 31, 201740 votes

God this is so true. You basically farm up in midlane, because if you make 1 aggresion on the ennemy laner you will get ganked, to eventually die and lose lane... so you have to wait and have no impact on the game until some rotations are actually set up somewhere on the map... which might already be too late to have an impact on the game xd you can't play lane because of not knowing where the jungler is, and knowing that he does not have to farm up to be efficient (ie he will perma gank everywhere ohoh great game) And let's not talk about toplane, which is definitely the worst role atm. Personal skill expression is going down!

DauntAug 31, 201718 votes

Or you could actually improve your play and start following the location of the enemy jungler instead of asking for everything to be handed out to you.

Skill expression isn't only killing your lane opponent or having fancy mechanics, it's also having macro play, working around the map and knowing the enemy junglers position. Vision was lowered for that exact reason. You didn't need any skill expression when you bought 3242342 wards and placed them all over the map.

As long as players have that delusional mindset, they're not gonna improve.

0 HogapuAug 31, 201733 votes

I definitely agree that knowing where the jungler is without wards IS pure skill. The problem is, you cannot constantly know where he is because he can be doing so much things at the same time :

-drake, herald -farming topside, botside or crabs -invading topside or botside -ganking mid by one of the 6 ways (8 if you are called Kayn or Lee Sin) -ganking bot or top -camping in a bush for 2 minutes in countergank

I am sorry, but I would rather play my lane, deny CS to my opposite laner, trade with him, etc, than having to permanently guess where the ennemy jungler currently is - which is not really a "fun" way to play the lane.

Btw that "delusional mindset" brought me up to Dia3 as a mid main, still climbing.

DauntAug 31, 20179 votes

You still have 2 wards on your hands and a control ward which will eliminate a lot of positioning options for the enemy jungler. I'm not sure why you think it would be okay to play aggressive without the chance of getting ganked.

Jungle presence is a huge part of playing a lane and to stay consistent as a midlaner you're suppose to play around your own and the enemy jungler.

2Charmnot2CharmAug 31, 201714 votes

You still have 2 wards on your hands

You would have a point if this garbage item 3361 didn't have a 2-3 minute cooldown and obviously you won't ever have two at the sametime cause you're using them on cooldown to find out where the jungle is for the team.

The only consistent ward you'll have ready at all times after backs is this item 2055 but of course it's limited to 1 and it has to be inside bushes because it's visible so the enemy jungle will just know they been spotted and kill it when they see it eventually.

Funkin DunkinAug 31, 201712 votes

While you can stretch the life of item 3362 in top or bot lane, this is a horrible item mid lane since if you want full vision on both sides you'd have to use both stacks that only last 60s. Then after that you're waiting 2 minutes just for one to return. It's a really shitty item.

WrÆthSep 1, 20174 votes

Alternatively you could just ward one side and play to that side only, but this forces you into a lot of really shitty positions where you are easy pray for skilshots

PlacentasSep 1, 20173 votes

I mean isn't that part of the challenge of mid lane currently? Not bashing on anyone, but the game is in a constant change usually, and you just gotta adapt to it. Just my 2 cents and not directed at you either, your comment just so happened to be the one to make me think this.

Oakleaf RangerAug 31, 20171 votes

I just hate that if the enemy jungler does decide to play (especially during the first clear) aggressive or camp my lane and mines still afk farming his jungle. I get mad when my jungler isn't responding to the enemy junglers actions like stealing their camps, counter ganking, invading, or at least dropping a ward in their last known area to see if they are still sticking around.

DauntAug 31, 20172 votes

While you can't really do anything if your jungler is simply worse, you can assure that you're doing your job right. Being aware, well positioned and putting down trinkets and control wards for yourself and your teammates will lower the chance of you getting ganked.

SkeltzAlukardAug 31, 20174 votes

No point explaining fam. The most writers are from Bronze-Low gold range. So for them mindset "i killed my laner once, im more skilled and a better player than everyone, nothing matters anymore" is currently active. They will downvote me also now. This game takes no skill at all anymore. It's really about who plays the better champ. It used to require some skill in season 1 up until season 5. Since then everything went downhill with Riot's power creeping champions. ONTOPIC: I dont mind stealth wards at all. They just were cancer back then and just because of stealth wards you could MASSIVELY boost your elo when you had the whole map warded.. The only thing i dont understand is pink ward removal.. Now i can get camped by Evelyn-Twitch-Shaco(which is useless now), or get "OUTPLAYED" by Vayne or Akali because i can't see them.. Get rid of this stealth bullshit please.

HalcyonDwellerAug 31, 20173 votes

I disagree. Skill is very much still a factor in how the game plays out. Players that can manage minion waves well and trade more effectively than their opponents and have map awareness and roam / split push / group correctly tend to win a lot more than players that don't do these things.

SpiritOfOdysseusSep 1, 20172 votes

Skill was a factor before a couple of kills practically ensured a team would snowball to victory. Currently, you can win by sheer luck alone. Get a couple of kills, snowball, teamfight mid, ace enemy team, take down 2-3 turrets and maybe the inhibitor. Now the other team is forced to play defensively for the rest of their 15 minute game.

HalcyonDwellerSep 1, 20171 votes

Skill still plays a part in what happens early in the game. I agree that snowballing becomes unstoppable, but the events leading up to the start of that snowball are still skillful.

That said, I do wish that you had more room for skill expression throughout the entirety of the game.

XonraAug 31, 20172 votes

Top has flat out turned into "farm up because you go aggro or push the lane and you WILL die to a gank, then be a tp bot" or "die to constant tower ganks because you either play passive and bored or you end up with a bad/good matchup and one person completely stomps" It's kind of boring, and I'm tired of swapping around roles to find the one that isn't jungle where I can feel useful before 25 minutes in without stomping my lane.

GrizzlpawSep 1, 20171 votes

I honestly just freeze in every game. I do not expect to get help from my jungler, so i make it so that the enemy cannot receive help from their jungler.

BeatzBoyFTWAug 31, 20179 votes

item 3340 ?

morris1Aug 31, 201722 votes

It's also worse than the old item 3361 , which they removed because bad people never upgraded it and instead gave us all a worse version at the start.

ABlueQuakerAug 31, 201712 votes

I miss item 3362 - it was basically a defensive item 3364 . As a Support/Jungler I could use all 3/2 charges of item 2303 item 1409 and then a Pink Ward and try to maintain vision control of that area.

Dr PoroSep 1, 20171 votes

Or you could buy a pink ward and use item 3364 for other areas. The item 3362 was just underpowered and a noob trap so they removed it.

RaiyzaAug 31, 20179 votes

Thats why you don't see laners trying to make fights often in the LCS. because they KNOW the enemy jungler might be around the corner. Plays are only made if they see the enemy jg across the map. I only wish people in my games understood that.

DivewingAug 31, 20173 votes

It's unfortunate really.

I notice so many openings where the jungler isn't there (spectator hax) for mid laners to get a kill that I bet they would go for in solo queue, but without that knowledge it's just too great a risk.

Weasel KenseiAug 31, 20176 votes

I both agree and disagree to some extent.

While it is harder to keep vision up, its still manageable. In season 5 you couldnt gank unless you had a pack of assclowns that had "ONLY SUPPORTS WARD" nonsense mentality. This would lead to the junglers sitting and power farming their infinity scaling Devourer for 20 minutes in the jungle playing near other players, but effectively in a separate game till the two collided.

Now vision is taking a bit too much of a beating from item 3147 in my opinion. Disable and reveal of wards every 90 seconds... Kinda toxic when its often carried by the kind of champs you need wards to protect you from.

Vision sub game is something Iv spent a fair bit of time on, and I know there was too much vision available to allow for much pressure from junglers, and furthermore the "purchasing of wards" was making supports the "ward bitch" or "ward mule" that made them fairly unfun to play for a lot of people. Now I make warding videos, and they are the most popular videos on my channel. Vision is achivable, it just takes more effort/skill now, and more importantly, a bit of team mentality.

I can tell you right now were not getting purchasable stealth wards again, and even if we did it would drive away a decent amount of players form support making them more rare than it is now, and Riot is pretty much forcing players to play support with autofill to keep que times down.

When I saw the vision changes, I knew it was going to let a lot of jungle ganks threw, and I hated that. I also like the idea of unburdening supports with the "bag of wards" nonsense. Top and midlane suffer the most, and many of the more potent junglers have seen nerfs to curb their dominance.

I know it sucks when a feature in the game changes in such a way that you cant appreciate it, but if you could have a perfect circle of vision you have to think how that would make jungler players feel. Sure youre thinking "Sucks I cant ward enough to see that jungler prick!" The thing is when you have that perfect circle of vision, it makes the jungler think "Sucks I cant get past that warding pricks vision!"

So I think a decent balance between vision and gaps in vision was found, at least until item 3147 started punching a few too many extra holes in vision.

TheorcheroAug 31, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Weasel Kensei,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hwyhy8Zw,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-08-31T17:37:56.400+0000)

snip

Oh please, even before season 5 you'd have 2-3 people on your team warding. "Only support ward" is a fucking meme and always has been, no one outside of low bronze actually believed that shit, and the people there wouldn't benefit from wards anyway.

Weasel KenseiSep 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Oh please, even before season 5 you'd have 2-3 people on your team warding. "Only support ward" is a fucking meme and always has been, no one outside of low bronze actually believed that shit, and the people there wouldn't benefit from wards anyway.

What are you on about?

I think you read something else than what I wrote? I think you read some kind of internal bias, and changed it inside your head into... IDK.

What I wrote:

...you couldnt gank unless you had a pack of assclowns...

This means ganking was hard unless... there were some less than intelligent people that...

...had "ONLY SUPPORTS WARD" nonsense mentality.

What you wrote:

...you'd have 2-3 people on your team warding.

So... yeah, my point is that ganking was hard because youd have 2-3 people warding... and to get a gank off... it ugh... it took a pack of assclowns with a nonsensical and ignorant mentality to get past vision to gank... and thus why they would spend 20 min afk farming the jg to power farm to get Devourer stacks.

I think if you went back and carefully read what I wrote you would find there was no need for your response. Not trying to be condescending, just seems like you over-reacted to a specific part of what I wrote and then backed up my point...

Ben SharpioAug 31, 20175 votes

why not just remove the stupid shitty plants that should have never been added in the first place? THESE ARE A HUGE PROBLEM DO PEOPLE NOT REALIZE THIS?

GayFluffyUnicornAug 31, 20176 votes

Apparently not. Whenever i watch high elo gameplay the first thing any laner does is walk to the blast cones and kill them xD

La Belle SauvageAug 31, 20173 votes

I'm a low elo players and when it's safe, I kill them.

CytheGuyAug 31, 20173 votes

People just outright kill them because they have the confidence in themselves to say "I won't need this later, so I'll destroy it in case the enemy team might use it."

KhristophorosAug 31, 20171 votes

{quoted}

People just outright kill them because they have the confidence in themselves to say "I won't need this later, so I'll destroy it in case the enemy team might use it."

idk I kill them because I want information. Confirming that a big area has no wards is arguably even better information than finding a ward.

DivewingAug 31, 20171 votes

At the least it's equally as useful

CytheGuyAug 31, 20171 votes

Blast cones don't reveal wards -_-

Dr PoroSep 1, 20171 votes

They kill the blast cone on the opposite side of the jungle because that's what their jungler will probably use to gank.

KyunseiAug 31, 20173 votes

Up trinkets. Nerf catch-up experience and make it linear through each camp.

Problem solved. But... You'll have to wait pre-season

TILTMASTEREXDEEAug 31, 20173 votes

It's also worth reconsidering the upgraded warding totem trinkets from season 5, god i miss those so much item 3361 item 3362

PePsiLemoNNAug 31, 20172 votes

Ward enemy jungle. Done.

AuraCreedAug 31, 20174 votes

You make it sound like it's that easy.

arc95Aug 31, 20172 votes

please for the love of all things holy revert the vision changes

revert control back to pinks

give us greens

leave the sweeper and blue

and give us back the pink ward totem

DeerGreenwoodSep 1, 20171 votes

Agree with everything except the 1 charge totem. Seriously, please don't do that.

arc95Sep 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Agree with everything except the 1 charge totem. Seriously, please don't do that.

I say revert totem back to a charge because my changes would actually be a pretty sizable vision buff by keeping the sweeper and orb the same while reverting to the old wards... but honestly, I do agree with you I like vision being op/over available actually, I agree with you with the more powerful sweeper and the scrying bloom vision denial has also been buffed quite a bit so 2 charges is solid

Sire HippingtonAug 31, 20172 votes

I could live without steakthwards to buy - IF trinkets actually gave atleast somewhat decent vision. But with the current shit totem that only provides 33% uptime for a single ward early on, it's pathetic. With better totems(atleast as good as in S5) and finally an aditional slot for controllwards would already go a long way without creating the old ward-war scenario where lot's of gold is throw into wards on both sides.

PentaDenierSep 1, 20172 votes

The old vision trinket was better once upgraded then this current one. I would rather have the old one back myself even though it starts with only 1 charge it got better at level 9.