These last set of changes prove that Riot has no idea what to do with Elise

metaworldpeace10··26 votes·1,312 views

For anybody wondering, here are the proposed buffs for Elise on surrenderat20.net

Elise: Cocoon (E) stun now 1.5 seconds at all ranks from 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 Cocoon (E) cooldown now 14/12.5/11/9.5/8 from 14/13/12/11/10

While these buffs are nice to see, they do NOT address the issue with Elise at all. In fact, these changes solidify her as a "stun bot" late game. She's suffering from an identity crisis and these last set of changes do not help her achieve that identity. Before we try and balance her, can we please find out WHAT she is first? As of right now, you can't build her AP because she has no durability and gets blown up instantly, when she builds full tank, she becomes a stun bot. Even when she's building full tank, you can pick a handful of other champions who are tanks and bring as much utility as her, but are MUCH more durable. To name a few, Sejuani RekSai Hecarim These champions also have much more reliable mobility abilities than Elise's Rappel. Can we find an identity for Elise? What do we want her to be?

  1. AP Assassin?
  2. Tank?
  3. Bruiser?
  4. Maybe a dual assassin/mage style with one style favoring a certain form? For example human = mage and assassin = spider?

These are the questions that the balance team needs to answer, rather than push through these useless "band-aid" fix buffs that don't fix the actual core problems that Elise currently has.

27 Comments

Flying Buntcake3 votes

Oy geez she is tricky to handle. Give Riot some credit here.

Vistha Kai2 votes

All they had to do in the first place was to not squash her like a petty bug with nerfs.

Rico Nasty2 votes

Idk but she needs her ult cooldown lowered significantly. It takes like 15 seconds to kill someone in a teamfight. Honestly make her into an assassin, that's what she seems most fit for.

Mandang02 votes

Does anyone else think it's actually refreshing when Riot lets a very strong early champion actually fall off?

I think the #1 thing Riot needs to worry about is Elise building full tank and still popping people like she used to. I don't care which identity people decide on, that just wasn't/isn't healthy.

Erockandroll1 votes

Can the community even Agree on what she should be? What was She before the end of the season? Cause from what I remember, the Old SotAG, gave her Tankyness And Sustain based on her base damages. Yet the only thing that seemed to kill her was the range nerf on the Rappel.

Flying Buntcake7 votes

I think agreeing on what she should be is a harder task that people realize.

metaworldpeace101 votes

[{quoted}](name=Flying Buntcake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rE7AxL2O,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-07-08T02:39:20.806+0000)

I think agreeing on what she should be is a harder task that people realize.

I agree, that's why I want to open a discussion about her identity. I want us, as a community and Riot to come together and discuss what we would like to see her become. She's a generalist, buffing her numbers will only make her a headache later when she's been buffed a couple of times in a row and she becomes what she was in early season 4.

Flying Buntcake1 votes

I see. The discussion would be tricky though, because it not always easy to get clear headed people.

Silents4291 votes

{quoted}

I agree, that's why I want to open a discussion about her identity. I want us, as a community and Riot to come together and discuss what we would like to see her become. She's a generalist, buffing her numbers will only make her a headache later when she's been buffed a couple of times in a row and she becomes what she was in early season 4.

Pretty sure the community normally doesn't know what they want.

Darkwind1 votes

Honestly, the only identity I can see Elise having is a duel assassin/bruiser style. Something like this:

Human Q: Base Damage changed to 100/135/170/205/240 + 60% AP. Percent missing health damage removed.

Spider Q: Base damage changed to 130/170/210/250/290 + 60% AP. Percent missing health damage removed.

Human W: Damage reduced to 75/115/155/195/235. Scaling increased to 100% AP

Spider form passive: Damage Scaling changed to ~1% bonus health. Health restore scaling changed to ~1% bonus health.

Suddenly, Elise has two viable build paths; an assassin build, made more viable by the increased scaling on her W, and a tanky/bruiser build made more viable because she'll still do actual damage without having to build magic pen items. Yes, she loses her % enemy health damage, but the build path that those numbers require makes her completely impossible to use unless she's just overbearing. Elise maintains her flexibility, which is imo core to her identity, as difficult as that is to balance around, having the ability to choose bewteen the two builds game-to-game; something like:

item 3020 item 3716item 3285 item 3089 item 3116 item 3135 or item 3047 item 3717item 3022 item 3110 item 3190 item 3143

Not sure how well those numbers work, and it'd definitely be a pretty large change to Elise, but I think a significant change like this is definitely needed

Partholonian1 votes

{quoted}

As of right now, you can't build her AP because she has no durability and gets blown up instantly, when she builds full tank, she becomes a stun bot.

I don't think this makes much sense. People who are intended to be built full AP often have no durability, because they don't need it, because it is their target that gets blown up even faster. Leblanc Katarina Syndra etc. Elise doesn't really seem to fit this, but lack of durability isn't why.

On the other hand, Elise's sustained DPS is too good to consider her a "stun bot". Especially with the Rappel buff from last patch. If you Rappel onto an ADC, they are going to have to pay attention to you whether you stunned them or not -- you've already taken them out of the fight.

And that's not even counting her real strength is in picks, I feel like she is intended to be not that great in 5v5 (which makes her pretty out of meta right now, but they're clearly trying to bring back more strategies than just "stay as 5 constantly after 15 minutes", whether or not they succeed this patch or not).

I think Elise's biggest problem is the lack of an ult. It limits her ganking because she has the same gank power all the time, so Riot is afraid (with reason) to make it as strong as other junglers bring when their ults are up. (Except Udyr, who has the same problem.) And it also limits her teamfight contribution compared to someone like Rumble who has a similar indecisive mix of a little bit of tankiness, single target CC but nothing to write home about, some damage but not really 100-0 burst... but when he lays down that ult people know it.

LankPants1 votes

I don't think this makes much sense. People who are intended to be built full AP often have no durability, because they don't need it, because it is their target that gets blown up even faster. Leblanc Katarina Syndra etc. Elise doesn't really seem to fit this, but lack of durability isn't why.

Katarina does have inbuilt durability, her E gives her 15% damage resistance. Leblanc and Syndra both don't need durability. In LB's case it's because she has reliable disengage and in Syndra's its because she does everything at a range.

It is worth noting that Katarina has higher base HP and MR per level and all 3 of the champs you mentioned have better base armour at all stages in the game than Elise. In fact Elise's base armour is super low, she only gets 79 at 18, which puts her more in line with the average ADC than most melee champs, other melee champs with armour as low as her tend to be guys like Garen with large defensive steroids.

More to the point at the moment I don't think it's fair to compare Elise to standard casters and assassins, she could be balanced around this but at the moment she's not. It's most fair to compare her to high damage tanks like Sejuani and Gragas or AP fighters like Vlad, Swain and Rumble. All of the AP fighters do build 'full AP', in that their standard build paths consist of items like item 3151 , item 3152 , item 3116 , item 3157 , item 3001 ect.

Every one of those champs has some form of defensive ability on their kit, Elise theoretically does too but her healing is so weak that it's borderline unnoticeable. That's then compounded by the fact that healing is innately weaker than shielding/extra defensive stats since it offers you little to no protection against burst. This also the reason why Swain is a competitive rarity while all of the other champs I mentioned are played often.

I think Elise's biggest problem is the lack of an ult. It limits her ganking because she has the same gank power all the time, so Riot is afraid (with reason) to make it as strong as other junglers bring when their ults are up.

That's really more of a strength than a weakness. Having accesses to 3 extra abilities is stronger than the majority of the ults in the game on both Nidalee and Jayce. The problem with form shifting as Elise is that you never really have more than 4 useful abilities. If you want to build enough AP to make your Human W useful you make your Spiderform Q trash since you're to squishy to ever use it. Your Spiderform W is basically trash unless you stack up on-hits to make use of the AS (building extra AP doesn't help as you wind up to squishy to utilise it anyway), but if you do that all of your AP scaling abilities wind up being worthless.

kDrakari1 votes

For that last part, I think he's agreeing with you actually. What he said was "Elise doesn't spike at 6, so she's either ungodly broken before then or absolutely trash after then compared to other junglers."

Partholonian1 votes

Having accesses to 3 extra abilities is stronger than the majority of the ults in the game on both Nidalee and Jayce.

Nid is a crappy ganker unless she hits one miracle skillshot (probably from fog of war), arguably even then; and Jayce doesn't jungle at all. You can be a champion with no ult or a weak ult, but can you be a good jungler with no ult or a weak ult? Junglers in particular seem to have a pattern of ult dependence for ganks. Because Riot is afraid of making someone who can get near guaranteed kills at level 3. Which they should be.

But I don't agree that 3 extra basic abilities are usually better than an ult anyway; nothing Nid or Jayce ever does has the teamfight-turning impact of a good ult from Rumble, Sejuani, Gragas, Amumu, Gnar, Hecarim, Malphite, Orianna, Vel'koz, Wukong... notice how several of the top junglers are on that list? (And also a bunch of non-junglers, of course.) Even junglers who don't have a super strong teamfighting ult usually have an ult that is at least strong single target, like Lee Sin, Skarner, Jarvan, Vi, or Warwick. Which they then rely on to gank people.

Your Spiderform W is basically trash unless you stack up on-hits to make use of the AS (building extra AP doesn't help as you wind up to squishy to utilise it anyway), but if you do that all of your AP scaling abilities wind up being worthless.

If only there were an item that granted an on-hit, AP, AND AS. And was getting buffed this patch.

I do agree that her lack of baseline tankiness is a problem and often leaves her with build issues, though. Maybe she should get defensive stats for transforming, the way Gnar and Shyvana do. Even though she has access to it at any time, she's still trading off range for toughness.

B3ER1 votes

Riot failed the spider queen idea completely. They should give her spiderlings 100% uptime, give her more and let her control them with her W. Volatile spiderling is a crap skill. Just another filler.

LankPants1 votes
  1. Maybe a dual assassin/mage style with one style favoring a certain form? For example human = mage and assassin = spider?

IMO this is how Elise should act, but both of her forms would have to be reliant on the other to function properly. Basically Elise can't be able to pick someone off Zed style without first setting up with her human form and can't be allowed to be a strong control mage in her human form, although I think her lack of a true ult helps with this I think it can be further exaggerated. The way I'd go about this is with some sort of mark interaction similar to Nidalee's hunt.

My idea for this would be something like (numbers could be way off)

Neurotoxin:

Now deals its damage over 3 seconds

Now a single target skill shot

Damage: 40/75/110/145/180 + (8% (+ 3% per 100 AP) of target's current health) > 90/120/150/180/210 + (75% of AP) or 30/40/50/60/70 + (25% of AP) per second

Now slows enemies for 20/25/30/35/40% For its duration

Cooldown: 6 > 12/11/10/9/8

Mana Cost: 80/85/90/95/100 > 60

Range: 625 > 800

My rational for these changes is mostly just that the ability really can't be that strong as it is now because if it's a strong ability it makes top Elise overwhelming. All these changes make Elise's human form a bit stronger as a mage and hopefully less of a stunbot, along with the other buffs to her ability to itemise AP. It also serves as the basis for the 'hunt like mechanic' I'll discuss now

Venomous Bite:

Damage: 60/100/140/180/220 + (8% (+ 3% per 100 AP) of target's missing health) > 100/140/180/220/260 + (50% AP)

Now deals bonus damage equal to 20/40/60/80/100 + (5% ( + 2.5% per 100 AP) of targets missing health) if target is suffering from Neurotoxin.

Slight de-prioritisation of the %HP damage but overall a stronger assassination ability with a much better AP scaling.

Skittering Frenzy:

Now deals 10/20/30/40/50 + (10% AP) magic damage on Elise's next auto attack, increased to 25/50/75/100/125 + (25% AP) if the target is suffering from Neurotoxin and heals Elise for the same amount

Still grants the same attack speed buff

Giving this ability some burst that's mostly locked away if Elise fails to land Neurotoxin re-enforces the assassin that requires self set-up identity that the rest of this kit is aiming for.

Spider Queen (passive):

No longer restores 4/6/8/10 + (10% AP) HP on hit

Now grants 4/6/8/10 + (5% AP) armour and 8/12/16/20 + (5% AP) magic resist in Spiderform

The healing is removed due to the healing on spider W. The healing will most likely be a little weaker over the course of a fight but is more instantaneous, which I believe is a lot better for an assassin. The extra armour and magic res is implemented in such a way that it rewards Elise for building extra AP without making her unkillable. She'd require 620 AP to reach 120 armour off of AP alone. It also make human form clearly more squishy than spider form, making it an obvious time to catch her out.

WutsKraken1 votes

Idk what anyone even wants her to be, Riot and community Her nerfs threw her into such a weird spot she's basically a slightly inferior tanky Lee Sin. Tons of early damage before falling off. Unlike Lee Sin, she has less utility and less mobility. The time she was still strong was when her damage was significantly higher than Lee Sin's enabling her to duel even into the lategame

Or when she could lane mid or top and crush people...

SoMNia3 votes

How does Elise have more mobility than Lee Sin?

WutsKraken1 votes

Scuse the poor wording, less mobility

SoMNia1 votes

Oh! Okay, then. No arguments here. Rappel is super clunky. :(

Silents4291 votes

It's a revert on a past nerf, calm down.

kaykalos1 votes

Elise can be balanced only as fighter and maybe as mage, as assassin PLS NO. She has so many tools at her kit gap closers, good cc, potential untargetability , burst damage and sustained damage.

CatSith1 votes

They want us to wait til after 5.13 changes are released to see how it affects Elise and THEN buff her. Everyone knows those changes aren't helping her, just another excuse to make us wait.

Troy2426211 votes

I'd really discourage reworks promoting a bruiser build. Bruisers are already hard to balance, especially mobile bruisers. That'd just make an already difficult to balance champion even more difficult and wouldn't really resolve the identity crisis in the grand scheme.

Partholonian1 votes

Well, she clearly can't be designed to QWER delete people. Her R doesn't work that way, and therefore, can't limit her ability to global people the way it does for the likes of Kat, Ahri and Syndra. Even Leblanc has SOME R CD.

And she has crappy poke and AOE. She has one spell that technically can do those things and it is REALLY slow.

That pretty much means she has to be based around getting in and staying in, as some kind of fighter/bruiser. Which means sustained damage and decent survivability. The sustained damage she has, from Skittering Frenzy and the new Rappel steroid.

Auroramancer1 votes

I'd really like to solidify Elise as an AP jungler.

Diana and Eve also fill those roles, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head. We need more AP junglers, and Elise has a kit to work for that.

She doesn't need to be a tank, we have enough other champions who are tank junglers and fill that role better than Elise does.

Hard4Hamsters1 votes

To fit her identity, I think she should be an Assassin, and I think she does fit that to some extent in the early game, but she lacks the power to keep that up throughout the game with her kit. She doesn't have the mobility to be an effective assassin nor any inherent durability outside the jungle.

I want her to be an effective AP Bruiser, but the itemization kinda sucks for that. Especially for a jungler. I think she needs to have slightly more durability to make this possible (more HP/lvl/ or armor/lvl?), but it is difficult to put this into her kit without breaking her. In my experience, Elise usually DOES build one or two damage items and then health and resists. Her AP scaling is pretty terrible though right now, and I always feel like I have to sacrifice a lot for items that are not optimum on her just because I wanted some M-pen so I could do meaningful damage.

If the Abyssal rework ever makes it to live, I would like to see Elise pick it up: item 3709 item 3001 item 3110 item 3151 would end up giving her about 1350 bonus health (with HP/level seals), 100 Armor, and 60 MR as far as tankiness, and she would have a decent amount of AOE damage on top of 120 AP and MRshred/M-pen to further increase her base damages. With the build currently, you have 30 more AP at the cost of 300+hp and 10MR. 300hp and 10MR is equivalent to 1000 gold worth of tank stats, and 30 AP is only 652 gold's worth of stats that aren't very useful on Elise while still getting (conditionally) all of the Mr reduction and Magic Pen you used to with some strong passives to boot. She could be a really good Tank buster with this build.

I really like her current kit as far as how it feels to play, though I think her R has a little too high of a CD (lower it to 3 seconds to make her kit feel more fluid). I do think she should maintain a somewhat strong early game, but she should have some more to contribute if she is unsuccessful in the early game. What that entails would be readjusting some of her power from her Q's to her W. I like the idea of giving it lower %HP base damage ~6% (from 8%), but upping the scaling to 4% per 100AP (from 3% per 100AP); this would make it so she would not be as oppressive early but have a little more power if she builds some AP. By reducing the damage on Q, one can add an AOE Slow to Human W and give her some actual in-fight sustain as the recent "buffs" are only effective in the jungle and don't help her fighting capability as much as the old Spider W active. This coupled with some stat boosts will make her tankier builds more worthwhile which I think is the only way she can be super effective with her current kit. If she were to get a complete overhaul to her kit, a more AP stacking assassin build might be possible, but with her current state, I don't think this is possible without overloading her more than she is or her just being completely ineffective as an AP assassin.

That's my opinion. I know it might not be shared by everyone, but I'd appreciate it if you read this and shared your thoughts on this matter. Good job to the OP for opening up a discussion about what people think that Elise is or should be right now. It is an important topic as a lot of people disagree on what Elise is supposed to be. I think it is important that people realize that Riot probably don't have the resources to rework such a new champion (relatively new at least), and that we will mostly have the same kit to work with, so we can only move around numbers and add small effects. I think that with her current kit, she cannot be an effective Assassin after the early parts of the game, but her AP Fighter build is possible to improve upon with some small changes to the champion. Peace.

TL;DR: I want her to be an AP Fighter/AP Tank as I think it's the only thing that can be improved without breaking her/overloading her or her being completely ineffective. New items can help her out here such as the PBE Abyssal that has been "iceboxed", but some changes to the champion herself would still need to happen to redistribute some of her power to compliment this style.

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