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Cold Steel shouldn't be so useless-- or negated

The Ecdysiast··35 votes·12,230 views

First, Cold Steel doesn't even give you a full extra second of life unless you're being attacked for 7 seconds-- which you wouldn't survive anyway with the amount of armor penetration and/or magic and true damage available to on-hit fighters even despite it only being on armor items.

Second, one of the most abused on-hit fighters is immune to cripples. Granted, he's also the one most capable of killing you well within 7 seconds so it makes little difference as Cold Steel is now.

It should be made an active effect so the cooldown can be used as a balancing tool, and buffed up to anywhere between 30% total AS and 50% total AS. That, and Master Yi should only be immune to movement slows during his ultimate, not cripples as well-- which makes no sense for balance on a champion whose passive grants an extra auto attack in the first place.

Perhaps this would need to be put on an item without armor, so it's not just the catch-all against on-hit builds.

Please note that introducing more situational counter build items against particular classes allows them room to buff those classes as well. (For example, Zed's allowed to stay incredibly powerful solely because of the existence of Zhonya's, which can halt his snowball early.)

Also, for anyone wondering: 15% of total is around 1/7th (I rounded). So at any attack speed above 1, you would only get 1 extra second of life for every 7 seconds you're being attacked. Keeping in mind that at 2 and above, you would need to be surviving more attacks, but you would still only get an extra one second.

61 Comments

Warlord Rhinark8 votes

This is what I'd like to see being done with Cold Steel:

item 3075 :

Cold Steel: Removed.

Damage reflection increased from 10% bonus armor to 20% bonus armor.

item 3143 :

-20% critical strike damage taken from basic attacks: Removed.

Cold Steel: attack speed slow increased to 25% from 15%.

NEW: Now stacks additively with Frozen Heart, rather than multiplicatively.

item 3110 :

Attack speed slow increased to 25% from 15%.

NEW: Now stacks additively with Randuin's Omen, rather than multiplicatively.

DNFVixen16 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAKeWsn3,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-07-25T18:04:23.385+0000)

This is what I'd like to see being done with Cold Steel:

item 3075 :

Cold Steel: Removed.

Damage reflection increased from 10% bonus armor to 20% bonus armor.

item 3143 :

-20% critical strike damage taken from basic attacks: Removed.

Cold Steel: attack speed slow increased to 25% from 15%.

NEW: Now stacks additively with Frozen Heart, rather than multiplicatively.

item 3110 :

Attack speed slow increased to 25% from 15%.

NEW: Now stacks additively with Randuin's Omen, rather than multiplicatively.

Removal of crit reduction? FUCK NO!

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gentle Lynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAKeWsn3,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-07-25T18:14:02.458+0000)

Removal of crit reduction? FUCK NO!

What do you mean?

Infinity Edge does true damage now anyway.

The damage reduction is useless.

Ayzev9 votes

I'm pretty sure the damage reduction applies before the true damage conversion.

Warlord Rhinark3 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty sure the damage reduction applies before the true damage conversion.

Do you have a source on that?

Ayzev1 votes

Now that you ask for one, I actually can't find any confirmation. I guess I'll have to hop onto practice tool, hope that one of the bots builds Randuin and see if it changes the true damage number.

remakoro2 votes

It was hinted into some rioters response when IE was still on PBE.

But anyway, even if true dmg wont get reduced by randuin, not all dmg from crits converted to true dmg so there is still good portion of that would be negated.

Ayzev9 votes

Alright, done.

Damage before Randuin:

https://image.ibb.co/b37qw8/before_randuin.png

Damage after Randuin:

https://image.ibb.co/cEFM3o/after_randuin.png

SugeMinPikk2 votes

Randuin's crit reduction is calculated before IE's true damage conversion. The order of calculation, afaik, goes scaling > conq conversion > randuins > ie conversion > other forms of mitigation

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

Randuin's crit reduction is calculated before IE's true damage conversion. The order of calculation, afaik, goes scaling > conq conversion > randuins > ie conversion > other forms of mitigation

Really?

Could you give me a source on that?

SugeMinPikk1 votes

Sorry, can't.. I just remember some red post about Randuin's passive still working against IE and IE still working against Randuin's armor, back when the change was still on PBE.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

Sorry, can't.. I just remember some red post about Randuin's passive still working against IE and IE still working against Randuin's armor, back when the change was still on PBE.

I don't know.

I'm a little skeptical.

If it was only while it was still on PBE, there's something that could have happened in-between.

The wikia doesn't say anything.

The wikia even says "if it was a normal critical strike".

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Randuin's_Omen

SugeMinPikk1 votes

That might refer to stormrazor or things like Eve e.. I'm testing it now

SugeMinPikk2 votes

I just tested it, and you'll just have to take my word for it.. apparently replays don't show IE's true damage.. But Randuin's does reduce the true damage dealt by IE.

Both Trists level 18, identical rune pages with no resolve (PTA preset)

Crit trist build: item 3031 item 3085 item 3085 Armor trist build (first test): item 1011 item 3105 item 3105 (60 armor)

Armor trist build (second test): item 3143 (60 armor)

In-game, the true damage (white number) was reduced. The replay doesn't show any true damage.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry6xlcAsCF8

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

I just tested it, and you'll just have to take my word for it.. apparently replays don't show IE's true damage.. But Randuin's does reduce the true damage dealt by IE.

Both Trists level 18, identical rune pages with no resolve (PTA preset)

Crit trist build: item 3031 item 3085 item 3085 Armor trist build (first test): item 1011 item 3105 item 3105 (60 armor)

Armor trist build (second test): item 3143 (60 armor)

In-game, the true damage (white number) was reduced. The replay doesn't show any true damage.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry6xlcAsCF8

Huh.

Strange.

I thought the wikia would say something about this.

Oh well.

Forget what I said about removing the damage reduction from Randuin's Omen then.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

True damage is pre-mitigation by definition.

Ayzev1 votes

If the true damage is coming from something that always deals true damage, like a Cho'gath R or red buff, then yes, it will ignore all damage reduction. But if it comes from magic or physical damage being converted to true damage, then it will only ignore resistances. Or at least that's the case with Infinity vs Randuin.

SugeMinPikk1 votes

Not the case for Randuin's vs IE. You know riot loves exceptions.

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

Randuin's crit reduction is calculated before IE's true damage conversion. The order of calculation, afaik, goes scaling > conq conversion > randuins > ie conversion > other forms of mitigation

Where did you read that?

I've been trying to get an answer on Twitter from Maple or Meddler.

SugeMinPikk1 votes

I just remember some red post about Randuin's passive still working against IE and IE still working against Randuin's armor, back when the change was still on PBE.

SugeMinPikk1 votes

{quoted}

I just tested it, and you'll just have to take my word for it.. apparently replays don't show IE's true damage.. But Randuin's does reduce the true damage dealt by IE.

Both Trists level 18, identical rune pages with no resolve (PTA preset)

Crit trist build: item 3031 item 3085 item 3085 Armor trist build (first test): item 1011 item 3105 item 3105 (60 armor)

Armor trist build (second test): item 3143 (60 armor)

In-game, the true damage (white number) was reduced. The replay doesn't show any true damage.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry6xlcAsCF8

CloudedLogic1 votes

Unless they changed it last I checked Randuins affects any damage that has the crit splat above it, this includes things like Karthus Q bonus magic damage.

Kazekiba1 votes

It used to but yeah they did change it. Anivia's Q-2 and Karthus's single-target Q aren't coded as crits anymore, or they changed Randuin's. I know I tested it once, and again, and the first time it worked but not the second.

TheSingularity1 votes

Better. Master yi is an exception Cold steel works despite his ult. Frozen heart stacks with multiple champs (multiplicitly)

Tahminatrix 1 votes

To be fair that is a 50% damage decrease from auto attacks basically, (stacks additively with eachother, so 25 + 25%)

But ya Id rather have crit strike damage reduction because attack speed slows don't hurt jhin`s ad very much for some reason. (Not nearly as much as attack speed increases)

The Ecdysiast3 votes

  1. Yeah, the thorns on Thornmail needs to be increased. But not by bonus armor. It needs to go back to reflecting a portion of the attack.

  2. Cold Steel is Unique. It doesn't stack.

Ayzev3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAKeWsn3,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-07-25T22:35:51.327+0000)

  1. Cold Steel is Unique. It doesn't stack.

Frozen Heart's aura isn't Cold Steel though.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Frozen_Heart

The attack speed slow of Frozen Heart stacks multiplicatively with Warden's Mail, Randuin's Omen and Thornmail, for a combined 27.75% attack speed slow

The Ecdysiast1 votes

o

GigglesO1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAKeWsn3,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-07-25T22:35:51.327+0000)

  1. Yeah, the thorns on Thornmail needs to be increased. But not by bonus armor. It needs to go back to reflecting a portion of the attack.

^^ This

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAKeWsn3,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-07-25T22:35:51.327+0000)

  1. Yeah, the thorns on Thornmail needs to be increased. But not by bonus armor. It needs to go back to reflecting a portion of the attack.

  2. Cold Steel is Unique. It doesn't stack.

I don't know about going back to reflecting a portion of the damage taken.

This basically discourages you from stacking armor, since it would mean the armor you build would mitigate the damage you would've taken and that would mean your Thornmail would deal less damage.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

No, no. It was never like that.

It reflected damage pre-mitigation.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAKeWsn3,comment-id=0000000100020000,timestamp=2018-07-26T18:50:03.707+0000)

No, no. It was never like that.

It reflected damage pre-mitigation.

Oh.

Nevermind then.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAKeWsn3,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-07-25T18:04:23.385+0000)

This is what I'd like to see being done with Cold Steel:

item 3075 :

Cold Steel: Removed.

Damage reflection increased from 10% bonus armor to 20% bonus armor.

item 3143 :

-20% critical strike damage taken from basic attacks: Removed.

Cold Steel: attack speed slow increased to 25% from 15%.

NEW: Now stacks additively with Frozen Heart, rather than multiplicatively.

item 3110 :

Attack speed slow increased to 25% from 15%.

NEW: Now stacks additively with Randuin's Omen, rather than multiplicatively.

Cool, I will build both of those items and in the face of every single auto attack based champion since I just insta win against them

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

Cool, I will build both of those items and in the face of every single auto attack based champion since I just insta win against them

Yeah that's a good point.

Maybe reduce it down to 20% and go back to multiplicative stacking.

iamsmurfing01013 votes

Riot to nerf damage and buff tank stats? That will make games slower and they will lose money from LC$ because viewers wants to see constant fights apparently. Kids will not quit fortnite to play this "fast paced" League. You can only dream dude.

Game is dying btw, cant wait till it drops dead like the balance team ruining it.

GigglesO3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAKeWsn3,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-07-25T18:04:23.385+0000)

This is what I'd like to see being done

item 3075 :

Partial revert, +100 armor reflects 25% of incoming physical damage, still gives grievous wounds

item 3143 :

-20% critical strike damage taken from basic attacks: Removed.

Cold Steel: attack speed slow increased to 25% from 15%.

Id actually just make it 20% and then add some armor back into the item.

NEW: Now stacks additively with Frozen Heart, rather than multiplicatively.

Not really sure I like this idea... seems kinda op...

Warlord Rhinark3 votes

{quoted}

Partial revert, +100 armor reflects 25% of incoming physical damage, still gives grievous wounds

Id actually just make it 20% and then add some armor back into the item.

Not really sure I like this idea... seems kinda op...

These changes are fine too.

Yeah additive stacking is kinda op. Just forget it.

Vlada Cut2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAKeWsn3,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-07-25T18:04:23.385+0000) item 3143 :

-20% critical strike damage taken from basic attacks: Removed.

NO. WE NEED THAT.

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

{quoted}

NO. WE NEED THAT.

I said later on in my reply to SugeMinPikk that you can just forget I wrote it.

I thought Infinity Edge's true damage made it useless, but that's apparently not the case.

LordGeovanni1 votes

item 3075 Cold Steel: Removed Grevious wounds: removed and made its own item. 15% basic attack damage reflection re instated Still has the Armor scaling increased to 15% and removed Base damage reflect from Thornmails 100 armor back 250 hp kept Cost more gold

I dont agree with the other things much i think item 3143 Would do better with either 20 more armor or 200 more hp or 150 more hp and 10 more armor. Gold cost increased if needed

I dont think item 3110 needs changes i think item 3071 needs armor pen nerfs and ad buffs item 3036 and item 3033 just Penetration nerfs even if you have to buff the gold cost also nerf Cut down and lord dominiks passives.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

item 3075 Cold Steel: Removed Grevious wounds: removed and made its own item. 15% basic attack damage reflection re instated Still has the Armor scaling increased to 15% and removed Base damage reflect from Thornmails 100 armor back 250 hp kept Cost more gold

I dont agree with the other things much i think item 3143 Would do better with either 20 more armor or 200 more hp or 150 more hp and 10 more armor. Gold cost increased if needed

I dont think item 3110 needs changes i think item 3071 needs armor pen nerfs and ad buffs item 3036 and item 3033 just Penetration nerfs even if you have to buff the gold cost also nerf Cut down and lord dominiks passives.

Why remove the Grievous Wounds from Thornmail though?

LordGeovanni1 votes

Because the addtion of Grevious wounds is the reason they used to remove the damage reduction remove 20 armor when they made the passive scale with armor and because Grevious wounds is just too much for one item to be doing Id like to see it on its own item.

Kazekiba2 votes

{quoted}

item 3075 Grevious wounds: removed and made its own item. 15% basic attack damage reflection re instated Still has the Armor scaling increased to 15% and removed Base damage reflect from Thornmails

You forgot why they did this.

It doesn't matter if the attacker takes 15% of the pre-mitigation damage in magic damage if they're also healing for 28% of the damage theyre doing + have boosted heals + Censer's life drain + bloodthirster's shield. Thornmail was not doing it's job, countering auto attackers like Yi or fed Lucians/Dravens because they could literally ignore its damage reflect passive thanks to shields + life steal

LordGeovanni1 votes

Grevious wounds: removed and made its own item.

LordGeovanni1 votes

I already said make The grevious wounds passive its own item. Lifesteal builds early game are not popular any time in the last 4 years like they were in season 3. But that is how bruisers were supposed to beat tanks by out sustaining them in a drawn out fight But rather they ripped the part that helped versus adcs and made it the same versus tanks damage wise while cutting their healing but doing nothing to adcs because of the dps they did and the Overall saftey of their position. The easiest way riot could balance things is to either Add bonus' for melee champions or Cut stats for Ranged champions (both end up with the same conclusion.) But balance isnt in riot's list of priorites

IdveYsUfSK5 votes

The problem now is that cold steel is a joke passive which makes no difference due to how overtuned and cheap attack speed has become. Same goes for frozen heart passive, only useful when superfed and ahead on very early stages of the game. Stop buying tank items, buy tanky damage items instead that will allow you to one shot. Pure defense items lose so much value now unless you have a dedicated followup team that could make use of the micro seconds you bought through "tanking".

SugeMinPikk4 votes

Yi was briefly broken when he started seeing play in high elo and nobody knew how to play against him (because he hadn't seen play in years). He's back down to shit tier now lmao

The Ecdysiast3 votes

You may have a point. But this isn't a "nerf yi" thread, nor is it a point that would serve only to nerf Yi.

In fact, allowing people more counters to a particular champion would give them room to buff that champion up to a decent state.

princeblumpkin3 votes

50% total AS slow Jesus Christ. That's as strong as a fully leveled Malphite E and I feel like I can barely auto when my AS is that slow.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

As strong as a champion ability?

That kinda sounds completely fair.

Though I did also say between 30 and 50, not flat out 50.

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