Daily reminder that riot needs to revert rammus Q nerf that happened on preseason

DropFill·Sep 25, 2015·100 votes·4,013 views

They thought he would be way too strong on the new jungle. Not at a SINGLE point of this year he has been relevant. Riot please

69 Comments

KrinuSep 25, 201527 votes

Put it this way: ADCs and AD juggernauts are a big thing right now.

Rammus is the tank for fighting AD foes.

He's nowhere to be seen.

DropFillSep 25, 201513 votes

{quoted}

Put it this way: ADCs and AD juggernauts are a big thing right now.

Rammus is the tank for fighting AD foes.

He's nowhere to be seen.

Mordekaiser does magical damage. Darius has plenty of armor pen plus true damge Fiora shits on rammus so hard that is not even fun GP has a way to get out of his taunt AND armor pen

The only ones that can't kill rammus.... can't be killed by him either. Both Garen and Skarner can simply ignore rammus on a teamfight

canpan14Sep 25, 20154 votes

Fiora does not shit on rammus haha. My friend loves when people pick fiora so he can destroy them with rammus.

LankPantsSep 25, 20156 votes

It's harder to outplay Fiora as Ramus than it is to outplay Ramus as Fiora.

Ramus's ball is basically a giant 'riposte this' sign, Ram can turn and dodge but it's harder for him to time that properly.

DropFillSep 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Fiora does not shit on rammus haha. My friend loves when people pick fiora so he can destroy them with rammus.

So maximum health true damage....with flat sustain.....doesn't counter rammus? Can you see that what you said makes no sense?

canpan14Sep 30, 20151 votes

Thornmail + W and she just kills herself. I've seen the matchup a number of times, try it out some time.

TotalJerkSep 25, 20155 votes

Remember how long it took after the Sejauni and Nautilus buffs before people start playing them? People are slow to adjust to patches unless something is blatantly broken.

AnidanSep 25, 20152 votes

Or alternatively: Rammus simply isn't useful right now with the monsters currently filling up the roster. DropFill gave a good list of reasons Rammus isn't used right now, and there's even more than that (Trundle support being a pretty good reason by itself).

LankPantsSep 25, 20152 votes

It took 5 minutes on Sej. The Sej buff was the introduction of Cinderhulk.

TotalJerkSep 25, 20156 votes

She was crazy strong BEFORE Cinderhulk. The fact that you think it was Cinderhulk that did it proves my point.

WookieJesuzSep 25, 20153 votes

I might be one of the only people who thinks this, but in a way Rammus is stronger against AP combo mages like brand, vel, syndra etc. His taunt completely shuts all their abilities down, it's pretty crisp. ADC usually have QSS so they can just remove taunt. Rammus op vs AA reliant and combo mages.

On a sidenote, I completely agree. REVERT THE RAMMUS Rammus

qetzelSep 25, 20152 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Rammus/Jungle

It looks like the armour changes really helped him. Buffing him seems... unnecessary?

DropFillSep 25, 20154 votes

{quoted}

http://champion.gg/champion/Rammus/Jungle

It looks like the armour changes really helped him. Buffing him seems... unnecessary?

look at his play ratio. If that miserable amount of people who play him suddenly loses more than win for a while.... his win ratio would be trash right? You can't say he is decent because of win ratio with such a low pick ratio. He is basically played as a counter to full AD comps because people are too lazy on solo queue to make decent teamcomps

qetzelSep 25, 20152 votes

The sample size in 10,000. That is a big enough number that random fluctuations won't affect it. There are enough people playing him for an informed decision about his win rate.

You could say he is played as a counter to comps with a large amount of AD. That gives him his niche. However, the statistics are from plat+ where people are at least able to consider team comps.

It is specifically unlikely that the people with over 50 games of Rammus (about 2600 games as a sample size this patch) have only chosen him against all AD comps. It takes a lot of time to get play rates up that high. These people are sitting at 54%+ win rate.

manbearswineSep 25, 20153 votes

{quoted}

The sample size in 10,000. That is a big enough number that random fluctuations won't affect it. There are enough people playing him for an informed decision about his win rate.

You could say he is played as a counter to comps with a large amount of AD. That gives him his niche. However, the statistics are from plat+ where people are at least able to consider team comps.

It is specifically unlikely that the people with over 50 games of Rammus (about 2600 games as a sample size this patch) have only chosen him against all AD comps. It takes a lot of time to get play rates up that high. These people are sitting at 54%+ win rate.

"We want more variety,and to see different champions in games,but don't buff that one,he has a high winrate,and don't buff that one he is toxic,and don't buff that one he's good but has a high skillcap" Rammus like many other champions "works" right now because he has something he works different in than some other champions(is very weak in the jungle,but is harder to ward against due to his speed),so people need to adapt to him,but since he is almost never played(because some people can adjust to him,making his players aware of the fact the champion is in fact weak) people don't do that.

I hear this shit winrate argument constantly,and this is the biggest factor on why picks get so stale,the playerbase itself is causing the problem,they don't play the champion,they don't want it buffed cause winrates,and yet they want variety,yet we just end up chocking on lee sin and thresh till the end of times.

Good job with that attitude,you people are the reason this game is stale,you won't let unique picks ever get into the meta since they require adapting to.

Silents429Sep 25, 20152 votes

Yeah, that's why Rammus isn't getting played. Totally. Yep.

manbearswineSep 25, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, that's why Rammus isn't getting played. Totally. Yep.

How about you play him,and then come back here telling us how great he is.

What? No? I wonder why...

Silents429Sep 25, 20152 votes

Wonderful in AD comps, bad against mobility and burst comps.

Clears okay enough.

Is a mad man with item 3742

He struggles against mobility and his predictability. He speeds up at you, it's not hard to avoid him.

manbearswineSep 25, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Wonderful in AD comps,

What do you mean full ad comps? That sounds more like the job from armor than for a champion.

bad against mobility and burst comps.

I don't think you understand,immobile comps destroy him as well,tank just blocks him and he's done.

Clears okay enough.

His clear is absolute shit compared to other junglers.

Is a mad man with

I'm unimpressed.

He struggles against mobility and his predictability. He speeds up at you, it's not hard to avoid him.

All he has is his early gank pressure,that's it,and he has his shit clear to limit him,some champions are plain better at him at that with a better early clear and not being so weak to invades,he might be good against full ad comps,but honestly shit comps are more of a job for items than a champion,and a champion shouldn't be kept weak because "if you make a really dumb comp it can be countered by him". Should we nerf armor cause it counters full ad comps? should we nerf mr because it counters full ap comps?

Tell people that amumu is op and people will tell you to git gud and stop playing arams in summoners rift,tell people that rammus is good because his winrate is high and suddenly you're a genius.

Rammus is bad,and plenty of high winrate champions share this state.

Silents429Sep 25, 20152 votes

What do you mean full ad comps? That sounds more like the job from armor than for a champion.

I said AD comps, and what better person to build armor then someone who can get 400 armor and taunt them.

I don't think you understand,immobile comps destroy him as well,tank just blocks him and he's done.

Okay, assuming this actually happened enough where that was a problem, thats 1 tank stuck dealing with Rammus, either way Rammus i causing problems for the enemy as he should be.

A tank can't block his taunt either.

His clear is absolute shit compared to other junglers.

Compared to who? It isn't the best, but it isn't the worst. He can clear at a moderate speed and have enough HP on his first clear to get off a gank. Not every jungler is suppose to clear greatly his strength as a jungler lay with his ganking.

I'm unimpressed.

The fuck do I care?

All he has is his early gank pressure,that's it,and he has his shit clear to limit him,some champions are plain better at him at that with a better early clear and not being so weak to invades,he might be good against full ad comps,but honestly shit comps are more of a job for items than a champion,and a champion shouldn't be kept weak because "if you make a really dumb comp it can be countered by him".

Never said full AD comp, you just interpreted it that way and ran with it for some reason. His clear is fast enough where he can have 3 camps down at about 3:10 - 3:15 with over half health. Same as every other tank jungler, and a few fighter junglers.

What's more disappointing is that you say early gank pressure as if that was a meaningless good quality, when that's really powerful on junglers. Problems arise when we have champions that clear fast, gank early and aren't weak to invades.

Should we nerf armor cause it counters full ad comps? should we nerf mr because it counters full ap comps?

The hell are you ranting on about?

Rammus is bad,and plenty of high winrate champions share this state.

Except he isn't bad, he isn't even suffering. All he is right now is meh, he isn't doing anything crazy, but he isn't crying in a corner somewhere. It's not a meta he is going to excel in, and a lot more factors exist outside of those god damn winrates and playrates everyone loves so much.

manbearswineSep 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I said AD comps, and what better person to build armor then someone who can get 400 armor and taunt them.

What exactly is an ad comp? Your general comp is some ap something,some bruiser(so magic+ad somewhere),adc(always),support(not much damage,but most of it magic)+something. I mean you sometimes heavy ad assassins or something like that,but these guys tend to stack armor shred.

Okay, assuming this actually happened enough where that was a problem, thats 1 tank stuck dealing with Rammus, either way Rammus i causing problems for the enemy as he should be.

He's not dealing with him,he's just blocking his initiation if rammus tries anything,on the other hand if the opposing tank tries anything rammus most likely isn't very effective there.

A tank can't block his taunt either.

Once his q is down he will get easily kited,people love calling it range but it's basically melee ranged.

Compared to who? It isn't the best, but it isn't the worst. He can clear at a moderate speed and have enough HP on his first clear to get off a gank.

Are you kidding me? his clear speed is abysmal,any meta jungler is an obvious choice as far as clear speed goes,then a bunch of off meta ones,xin,yi,reksai,lee/etc.

Not every jungler is suppose to clear greatly his strength as a jungler lay with his ganking.

And then you have lee who is both,or reksai,or elise.

The fuck do I care?

He's still very easy to completely screw over with it,the way ms stacks means he doesnt get too much from it in q form,then a tank blocks it,then he gets slowed,so overall meh.

Never said full AD comp, you just interpreted it that way and ran with it for some reason. His clear is fast enough where he can have 3 camps down at about 3:10 - 3:15 with over half health. Same as every other tank jungler, and a few fighter junglers.

What's more disappointing is that you say early gank pressure as if that was a meaningless good quality, when that's really powerful on junglers. Problems arise when we have champions that clear fast, gank early and aren't weak to invades.

It's not a meaningless quality,you just have junglers who clear better early,have as much pressure,and when in good hands,scale better.

The hell are you ranting on about?

People seems to think that just because a champion might be good against some spectacularly shit comps it makes him a solid niche pick,it doesn't.

Except he isn't bad,

Except that he is.

he isn't even suffering.

He very much is.

All he is right now is meh, he isn't doing anything crazy, but he isn't crying in a corner somewhere.

He actually is.

It's not a meta he is going to excel in,

And why is that,what about this meta is so bad for him? in what meta is he going to be good?

and a lot more factors exist outside of those god damn winrates and playrates everyone loves so much.

Name one which makes rammus a good pick,everyone I've talked to so far seems to see him as bad,and I actually used to play him,again,go play some games on him,then come back here and tell me how great he is.

Silents429Sep 26, 20152 votes

The gist of your responses is your failure at jungling mixed in with stubborn "Nuh uh's"

If you don't know what an AD comp is but will derail your train of thought to complain about something separate from the subject, you shouldn't even be trying to discuss balance.

Rammus has 2 forms of hard CC and you bitch that it isn't enough. "Oh woe is me the enemy tank is doing his job waaaah"

Rammus can finish his first clear at about 3:10 yet you complain it isn't fast enough.

Rammus can get "kited" yet he is one of the few tanks with actual mobility and means to overcome that weakness. Apparently you will still list it as a glaring negative.

Rammus is a great ganker, especially early on.

Rammus is devastating against any team with a fed ad carry, or people reliant on auto attacks.

You make a common mistake of pretending to understand balance when you whip out negatives left and right without actually understanding them and instead apply your failed experiences as fact.

DropFillSep 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The gist of your responses is your failure at jungling mixed in with stubborn "Nuh uh's"

If you don't know what an AD comp is but will derail your train of thought to complain about something separate from the subject, you shouldn't even be trying to discuss balance.

Rammus has 2 forms of hard CC and you bitch that it isn't enough. "Oh woe is me the enemy tank is doing his job waaaah"

Rammus can finish his first clear at about 3:10 yet you complain it isn't fast enough.

Rammus can get "kited" yet he is one of the few tanks with actual mobility and means to overcome that weakness. Apparently you will still list it as a glaring negative.

Rammus is a great ganker, especially early on.

Rammus is devastating against any team with a fed ad carry, or people reliant on auto attacks.

You make a common mistake of pretending to understand balance when you whip out negatives left and right without actually understanding them and instead apply your failed experiences as fact.

First, rammus has two forms of hard CC. One being a very low duration knockup with a very low radius. Second being a short range single target taunt.

Rammus can finish his clear at 3:10 WITHOUT ganking. And what is a first clear? gromp or golem, red or blue, wolf?

Sejuani has her Q, gragas has his E, Amumu has his Q ( assuming a target ), Naut has his Q, Vi has her Q and R, Rek'sai has her passive ms from W and E, Maokai has his W. ALL this abilities I noted are more reliable to reach a carry than rammus Q. His Q is only better is terms of reaching someone when you take as a example Volibear, Malphite, Mundo, Sion, Skarner and Udyr. But all this champions have better clear and teamfight presence (except udyr) than rammus.

Rammus is only strong against HEAVY AA reliant champions that don't do damage with abilities or/and don't have mixed damage or don't have/don't synergize well with BC. Champions that come to mind are Tryndamere , Tristana, Twitch, Graves, Lucian , Talon , Riven ( when not ahead ) , Rengar , Aatrox ( assuming when not ahead because of flat sustain ) , Quinn , Jayce ( too squishy ) , Ashe,Draven,Cait, MF ( terrible state at the moment ) , Varus , jinx , Ezreal ( when he is not blue ez ). Other ADCs are not listed because they can easily kite rammus by themselves on a 1v1 situation. ALL adc's listed, with a little bit of peel, can ignore rammus at teamfights. I listed 18 champions. This is such a small sample.... that makes rammus VERY niche I don't think I understand 100% about balance....But I know for sure, more than you.

Silents429Sep 26, 20151 votes

Actually he can clear and then go gank, his HP is typically 70-75% after clearing.

His clear is starting Red > Chickens > Blue

First, rammus has two forms of hard CC. One being a very low duration knockup with a very low radius. Second being a short range single target taunt.

They are still hard CC and he is given the means of getting close enough to his targets.

Sejuani has her Q, gragas has his E, Amumu has his Q ( assuming a target ), Naut has his Q, Vi has her Q and R, Rek'sai has her passive ms from W and E, Maokai has his W. ALL this abilities I noted are more reliable to reach a carry than rammus Q. His Q is only better is terms of reaching someone when you take as a example Volibear, Malphite, Mundo, Sion, Skarner and Udyr. But all this champions have better clear and teamfight presence (except udyr) than rammus.

What's the common occurrence with these? While Rammus speeds past they rely on having targets to hit otherwise there gap closers are short and worthless.

Also Maokai has a short range on his W and no means of getting into range, as do a lot of tanks with gap closers.

I don't think I understand 100% about balance....But I know for sure, more than you.

You haven't said anything the least bit unique for yourself these have been common issues for Rammus even when he was considered "OP" towards the end of season 4

If you want to think you understand balance because you can recite common reasons most tanks struggle in this game, then congrats?

DropFillSep 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Actually he can clear and then go gank, his HP is typically 70-75% after clearing.

His clear is starting Red > Chickens > Blue

They are still hard CC and he is given the means of getting close enough to his targets. ALL this abilities I noted are more reliable to reach a carry than rammus Q. His Q is only better is terms of reaching someone when you take as a example Volibear, Malphite, Mundo, Sion, Skarner and Udyr. But all this champions have better clear and teamfight presence (except udyr) than rammus.

What's the common occurrence with these? While Rammus speeds past they rely on having targets to hit otherwise there gap closers are short and worthless.

Also Maokai has a short range on his W and no means of getting into range, as do a lot of tanks with gap closers.

You haven't said anything the least bit unique for yourself these have been common issues for Rammus even when he was considered "OP" towards the end of season 4

If you want to think you understand balance because you can recite common reasons most tanks struggle in this game, then congrats?

When he was considered "OP", his taunt lasted 3s. Not a single moment after this, rammus has been op or relevant. Yet riot nerfed his Q CD.

Silents429Sep 26, 20151 votes

He hasn't had a time where he thrives this season. He still got 2 buffs, and minor nerfs when he was considered OP

Don't mistake my defending him as saying he is perfectly fine, but he is far from anything to worry about.

BTW that taunt nerf was way back in Season 3, Reverting the CD nerf on his Q won't solve anything.

manbearswineSep 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The gist of your responses is your failure at jungling mixed in with stubborn "Nuh uh's"

You do realize I'm a WAAAAAAAAAAAY better jungler than you right? Your response is basically "the winrate is high so it must be good,I'm going to list minor strengths the champion has".

Lee sin clears better,has better early gank pressure AND scales better into the lategame,because rammus is an early game champion who brings very little late,lee can still make picks.

If you don't know what an AD comp is but will derail your train of thought to complain about something separate from the subject, you shouldn't even be trying to discuss balance.

If you can't understand that these ad comps you speak of are shit comps you shouldn't discuss anything.

Rammus has 2 forms of hard CC and you bitch that it isn't enough. "Oh woe is me the enemy tank is doing his job waaaah"

One of which is exceptionally short and both of which are melee ranged on a champion with no mobility.

Vi has 2 hard cc abilities,2 dashes,better clear,and very strong early ganks on top of scaling better into late.

Rammus can finish his first clear at about 3:10 yet you complain it isn't fast enough.

How about you compare him to actual meta junglers instead of in a vaccum?

Rammus can get "kited" yet he is one of the few tanks with actual mobility and means to overcome that weakness. Apparently you will still list it as a glaring negative.

Are you fucking kidding me? All fucking jungle tanks have either gap closer or ranged cc. Naut hook is ranged,also a gap closer,sejuani ult is ranged,her jump is also a gap closer,zac has his jump which is big gapcloser,gragas has a jump and his ult is ranged,what the hell are you talking about,how clueless can you be?

Rammus is a great ganker, especially early on.

That's the only thing he has going for him and he is held back by his clear+weakness to invades+lee/elise/vi/etc have very strong early ganks as well.

Rammus is devastating against any team with a fed ad carry, or people reliant on auto attacks.

Why would anyone even let him reach the adc,a tank will break his q and he is done. Hell? have a shit comp with no tank? you get qss and now rammus just does nothing.

You make a common mistake of pretending to understand balance when you whip out negatives left and right without actually understanding them and instead apply your failed experiences as fact.

You make the mistake of being a bronze thinking he is challenger,who once again thinks that by looking at his winrate he can tell everything about the champ is great,you wouldn't be saying this if his winrate was at 47%,your opinion is worthless,you're basically a talking lolking/champion.gg

Silents429Sep 26, 20151 votes

Again, just like before you make 1 misconception and ran with it.

I don't care about his winrate, that has nothing to do with anything I said.

How about you compare him to actual meta junglers instead of in a vaccum?

Name the champions clearing in under 3 minutes, that makes 3:10 SOOO slow.

One of which is exceptionally short and both of which are melee ranged on a champion with no mobility.

His roll just flies over your head constantly doesn't it.

How about you compare him to actual meta junglers instead of in a vaccum?

Because the meta is stupid, it's an arbitrary set of "rules" the stupid community forms up based on what they deem popular at the time.

If you can't understand that these ad comps you speak of are shit comps you shouldn't discuss anything.

How uncommon is it to have a marksmen and either an AA jungler or fighter top? Those would make AD comps, and it's heavy opinionated on whether these comps are shit.

Are you fucking kidding me? All fucking jungle tanks have either gap closer or ranged cc. Naut hook is ranged,also a gap closer,sejuani ult is ranged,her jump is also a gap closer,zac has his jump which is big gapcloser,gragas has a jump and his ult is ranged,what the hell are you talking about,how clueless can you be?

You cited that Rammus has no mobility and easily kited..

Then I tell you he has mobility and can overcome the kiting weakness.

Now you are ranting on that I said no other tank has gap closers, and even still. Few of them have actual mobility, you can't just say their abilities without thinking about them.

In order for Naut to hook he has to land it. Unlike Rammus he can't use it effectively to bring him closer to his targets, because then he is down a hook.

Zac uses his leap to get into the fight but has little means to sticking against mobile targets after using it.

Gragas either has to waste his ult or run into someone with his slam, but again it's a wasted ability that covers little ground.

Rammus isn't limited in these regards.

That's the only thing he has going for him and he is held back by his clear+weakness to invades+lee/elise/vi/etc have very strong early ganks as well.

Oh suddenly early clear isn't a "minor" strength anymore.

And yeah, so what he is weak to invades? On the off chance a jungler bothers in the first place. But again 3:10 - 3:15 clear time. Who is doing better then him exactly?

Why would anyone even let him reach the adc,a tank will break his q and he is done. Hell? have a shit comp with no tank? you get qss and now rammus just does nothing.

Every game is different and forcing the scenario of 1 into this doesn't change anything. I have seen games where Rammus is useless and others where he is devastating. A tank blocking Rammus is a tank not locking down my team, and in the end a tanks job is to cause as much disruption as they can.

You make the mistake of being a bronze thinking he is challenger,who once again thinks that by looking at his winrate he can tell everything about the champ is great,you wouldn't be saying this if his winrate was at 47%,your opinion is worthless,you're basically a talking lolking/champion.gg

I have no ranked but congrats for being one of those people.

Also. Winrate and Playrates mean jackshit and I haven't once implied they mattered.

manbearswineSep 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Again, just like before you make 1 misconception and ran with it.

Oh please,you're bronze,without winrates you wouldn't have the confidence to stick to your bullshit,I know your kind.

I don't care about his winrate, that has nothing to do with anything I said.

nice joke there.

Name the champions clearing in under 3 minutes, that makes 3:10 SOOO slow.

Lee,vi,reksai.

Oh here's some bonus points: right now double jungle(where the top laner helps the jungler clear) is VERY popular at decent levels of play,dealing damage to the camps helps a lot with that.

Oh and other junglers(hell even sejuani) will clear camps very fast in the mid-lategame,rammus will still sit there for a couple of years.

His roll just flies over your head constantly doesn't it.

No,it's just blocked by a tank.

Because the meta is stupid, it's an arbitrary set of "rules" the stupid community forms up based on what they deem popular at the time.

Nice shinny bronze badge you have there.

How uncommon is it to have a marksmen and either an AA jungler or fighter top? Those would make AD comps, and it's heavy opinionated on whether these comps are shit.

So he counters darius right now? he works vs garens? You know they are fighters right? Should I pick him vs j4 or vi?

All fucking jungle tanks have either gap closer or ranged cc. Naut hook is ranged,also a gap closer,sejuani ult is ranged,her jump is also a gap closer,zac has his jump which is big gapcloser,gragas has a jump and his ult is ranged,what the hell are you talking about,how clueless can you be?

You cited that Rammus has no mobility and easily kited..

THAT'S BECAUSE HE HAS NO MOBILITY AND IS EASILY KITED.

Then I tell you he has mobility and can overcome the kiting weakness.

And I tell you he is blocked by a tank because his mobility is so fucking telegraphed,I want to see a tank block gragas ult,sejuani and naut also have much less time tor react(aka not 10 years) for their initiation.

Now you are ranting on that I said no other tank has gap closers, and even still. Few of them have actual mobility, you can't just say their abilities without thinking about them.

What the hell are you talking about,vast majority of them has some sort of gapcloser.

In order for Naut to hook he has to land it. Unlike Rammus he can't use it effectively to bring him closer to his targets, because then he is down a hook.

If he misses it nothing happens,if rammus goes in and get's blocked he gets chunked. naut can also still be effective from range with his ult.

Zac uses his leap to get into the fight but has little means to sticking against mobile targets after using it.

His ult? Besides,at least he can reliably get himself into a fight,rammus can't.

Gragas either has to waste his ult or run into someone with his slam, but again it's a wasted ability that covers little ground.

Rammus isn't limited in these regards.

Are you fucking real?

Oh suddenly early clear isn't a "minor" strength anymore.

Since when was early clear a minor strength?

And yeah, so what he is weak to invades? On the off chance a jungler bothers in the first place. But again 3:10 - 3:15 clear time. Who is doing better then him exactly?

Do people in bronze even invade? Do you even know what an invade is? Lee/shaco/whatever clears his first camp then goes to kill you at red/blue.

Hell? have a shit comp with no tank? you get qss and now rammus just does nothing.

Every game is different and forcing the scenario of 1 into this doesn't change anything. I have seen games where Rammus is useless and others where he is devastating. A tank blocking Rammus is a tank not locking down my team, and in the end a tanks job is to cause as much disruption as they can.

You only block his Q,that's it,you then go off on your business while rammus is busy being useless.

I have no ranked but congrats for being one of those people.

"I'm a shit player who has no idea what he is talking about and people bring it up,how dare they" Gee,I don't know.

Also. Winrate and Playrates mean jackshit and I haven't once implied they mattered.

Great,I'm guessing the great knowledge of trenchies is the best thing to go by.

DropFillSep 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, that's why Rammus isn't getting played. Totally. Yep.

Play Rate 2.43% WOW so much play.

Silents429Sep 26, 20151 votes

Lot more then a lot of other champions.

But continue convincing yourself that you have all the needed information with just 2 statistics.

BakedLotionSep 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

http://champion.gg/champion/Rammus/Jungle

It looks like the armour changes really helped him. Buffing him seems... unnecessary?

Armor changes were nerfs across the board. How did it improve him? Seems more like a coincidence.

qetzelSep 26, 20151 votes

Actually, I think the Thornmail changes were a buff to Rammus because of his W. Because Thornmail is core on Rammus, the armour changes were a net buff.

DropFillSep 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Actually, I think the Thornmail changes were a buff to Rammus because of his W. Because Thornmail is core on Rammus, the armour changes were a net buff.

The armour nerfs?No Also, before, thornmail used to do 30% of the damage. Now it is 15% plus 25% of your bonus armor. Assuming a basic attack of 500 before mitigation, old thornmail reflected 150 of damage. New one reflects 75 and in order to reflect the same thing as the old one, you need 300 BONUS armor. Since ALL armour items were nerfed, it is pretty hard to get it. And this only gets worse as the damage of the basic attack goes higher. New thornmail will NEVER be better than her previous version

EvilMerodachSep 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The armour nerfs?No Also, before, thornmail used to do 30% of the damage. Now it is 15% plus 25% of your bonus armor. Assuming a basic attack of 500 before mitigation, old thornmail reflected 150 of damage. New one reflects 75 and in order to reflect the same thing as the old one, you need 300 BONUS armor. Since ALL armour items were nerfed, it is pretty hard to get it. And this only gets worse as the damage of the basic attack goes higher. New thornmail will NEVER be better than her previous version

Except Rammus gets 120 bonus armor for pressing W (at max rank/endgame) 100 for thornmail, 120 for W, one more armor item...like item 3742 He can hit 300 bonus armor easy.

Rammus, Taric, and maybe Malphite are probably the only champs that can use item 3075 effectively now.

Which..is a problem..but not for Rammus.

HaIlMonitorSep 25, 20151 votes

This is like trying to get them to revert Ahri because they were she would become weak after DFG was removed lol.

DropFillSep 25, 20153 votes

{quoted}

This is like trying to get them to revert Ahri because they were she would become weak after DFG was removed lol.

Not even close. People claimed ahri was going to be weak, and bla bla bla. Turns out she is one of the best midlaners for the entire season Rammus hasn't been relevant since last season

HaIlMonitorSep 25, 20154 votes

That is my point.... She didn't NEED the buff but they jumped into stupid ideas and made a bad choice

DropFillSep 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That is my point.... She didn't NEED the buff but they jumped into stupid ideas and made a bad choice

But she didn't got nerfed.... Since DFG was removed to EVERY single mage mid, all of them got nerfed, so it balanced itself out. Rammus on the other hand got nerfed.

SquidblimpSep 25, 20152 votes

She got the 20% bonus damage on charmed targets removed, so she was actually nerfed. Just turns out that the Foxfire buff along with the bonus movespeed on Q buffed her more than her damage nerf actually nerfed her.

Battlecast SonaSep 25, 20153 votes

Honestly, I always thought that Ahri's true strength was in rushing 40% CDR and using her Q as often as possible (with Rylai's, probably). The changes just buffed this gameplay style (which, incidentally, was always strong, just not what was being played at the time) and that playstyle only loses a bit from the Charm damage buff. The mobility makes her a safer, more all-around pick while her kit already reinforces that and the Q rewards her for staying alive as long as possible and getting as many Q's off as possible for dat true damage.

Slamurai JackSep 25, 20151 votes

"Rammus sucks and I don't care if all the available numbers disagree with me. Just like Aatrox and Vel'koz."

Bouffon dAnglaisSep 25, 20153 votes

Vel'Koz is nowhere near Rammus in any aspect. Aatrox is a problematic "champion". Champion with "" because Riot will never allow him to be a champion in his current state.

Slamurai JackSep 25, 20151 votes

You say that, and yet Aatrox mains are doing quite well. Better than mains of nearly any other champion, in fact. That sounds pretty good for a champion that Riot is supposedly "now allowing to be viable".

Battlecast SonaSep 25, 20153 votes

The problem with using Aatrox "mains" as an argument is that it's like arguing that "poppy mains do pretty well with her". Well, yeah, but that doesn't mean the champion doesn't have intrinsic problems in her kit - it just means those people have put in the time to learn to play around her weaknesses. I feel like the same thing can be said about Aatrox - his lategame and midgame are okay, but I feel his early game is pretty bad. People who play a lot of Aatrox know how to work around these weaknesses, but because he's not very popular people don't really know how to play against him. There's a reason Aatrox isn't popular right now...

Vel'Koz is in a slightly different boat where I don't think there's really any problem with his kit, he's just not strong against mobility creep and there's a lot of mobility in the meta right now. Having all skillshot abilities when you're playing against someone like Yasuo or Ahri is... pretty hard.

Slamurai JackSep 25, 20151 votes

Aatrox has a weak early game? Are we playing the same champion? Just because he's not the broken overpowered mess that he was on release doesn't mean he's terrible. As for Vel'koz, he's actually done extremely well against Yasuo statistically since his release. That matchup is a counter on paper only and trends heavily in Vel's favor in game.

Battlecast SonaSep 25, 20151 votes

Having played the matchup many times, this is true until the enemy Yasuo knows the matchup as well/better than you do. Yasuo v Vel'Koz is one of the game's fated SKILLMATCHUPS, where if Yasuo knows what his wind wall blocks and what your power spikes are he can dumpster you, assuming he plays the matchup perfectly... But if he doesn't, or if you outplay him, vel definitely has the ability to beat him. I just think it's lame because Yasuo has the fallback of just clearing the whole wave instantly (which Vel can do too), but it generally devolves into a farm lane.

Akali is SO HOTSep 26, 20151 votes

>Not relevant >Has never dropped below a 50% winrate

DropFillSep 26, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qtpQNacL,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2015-09-26T02:32:31.948+0000)

>Not relevant >Has never dropped below a 50% winrate

Being relevant or not is when your play ratio is REALLY high, which shows you have something really good to offer. LB was relevant before, and her win ratio was like 47,48%. Her play/ban ratio was VERY high Rammus Play Rate is 2.43% and ban ratio is 0.17%. LB NOWADAYS pick ratio is 8.34% and ban ratio is 2.62% , but her win ratio is 46.57%. Stop using only win ratio as information to a champion being relevant or not

Battlecast SonaSep 26, 20152 votes

win ratio has nothing to do with a champions relevance to the meta.

For the reasons listed above, win ratio is and always will be an incomplete view of how useful/good/relevant a champ is, because, as other people have explained... Let's assume 2% of the playerbase is playing Rammus. Because of his offmeta status right now, it's safe to assume that the people playing him are probably pretty good at him/have some experience on him (hence why they play Rammus)... Which means his winrate will be high, as he's only played by people who play him well. Meanwhile, champions like LeBlanc, who is more popular, are going to have lower winrates because people who don't know how to play her will pick her because she's strong/Bjergsen picked her/whatever.

This is why a lot of times the really fotm champions do not have high winrates - people start playing them because they're fotm and lose because they don't know how to play, disguising the fact that the champion is actually strong with low winrates. For example, Annie is constantly quoted as an "OP" or "easy" champion, but her winrate is at 49%. Meanwhile, Vel'Koz' winrate is a full percent higher at 50%. Does this mean Vel'Koz is better than Annie? HELL NO, it just means more people are picking Annie then are picking Vel.