Why are Juggernauts designed to depend on allies?

Ahristocats·Nov 10, 2016·15 votes·1,918 views

They are just like ADC

ADC are designed to depend on supports and on front line, they go full AD/crit, and they need a frontlane to take damage and supports to protect them.

Juggernaut's damage are really good when building offensive items like but they just can't do this. they need to build tanky items like . and even if they do, they still need people to throw crowd controls or they will just get kited to oblivion.

I just realised this while talking about . You have the ability to completly remove mordekaiser's weakness if you help him with lantern, and building items like to increase his AP while he can go into defensive items, you can also build to remove CC/makes him ignoring slows.

But you can't , because you need to cast knight's vow on your ADC for example, you need to focus on CC'ing what is killing your ADC.

So why is so much depending on his allies? for example he gets bonus movement speed only if someone is with him is nearly the same, gets kited, and he's extremely squishy because he doesn't have a defensive steroid or something like that. in late game he can be killed before the 0.75 second of his Q allows him to heal (and you can buy ).

the Good juggernaut for me is . He is less depending on allies, more depending on where he fights (passive) and his kit is less punishing if he manages to catch you (except if he drags you into his team).

71 Comments

Teridax68Nov 10, 201611 votes

Everyone needs their team to some extent, and juggernauts are no exception. I do agree, however, juggernauts are often left behind in favor of the ADC, even though both are meant to specialize in damage. On top of that, the marksman will often end up being the larger threat even when both them and the juggernaut are within range of you, which defeats the point of the subclass entirely. I think this has more to do with marksmen being over the top than with juggernauts being weak, though -- perhaps they could be less binary with respect to kiting, which would allow them to be competitively viable, but otherwise it's good that they rely on their team to set up fights for them, and when they do get to participate, they tend to be quite strong.

Sona x RubickNov 10, 20166 votes

wow, everything you said was true

D357R0Y3RNov 10, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qoA2cLXW,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-11-10T13:24:16.472+0000)

because you need to cast knight's vow on your ADC for example,

wow would have been good if riot didn't force us to play those broken champs and actually allowed us to do a team centered around a juggernaut

BastionKrossNov 10, 20166 votes

They did allow us to do a team centered around a juggernaut, see Morde around the same time as season five worlds. Rather than let the meta change to one where marksmen aren't safe botlane (thus forcing them into other lanes and opening up the meta) they nuked Morde so badly he failed to be a champion for several months.

But hey, at least that's better than the last time a champion attempted to drive marksmen from bot lane, right Urgot? Oh silly me, Urgot can't hear me. He's still sitting on the "don't let this champion be viable" bench that he's been on since season 2.

Riot has an established record of protecting marksman from meta changes. For some reason known only to themselves, Riot absolutely refuses to let marksmen be driven from bot lane; let alone be an optional part of the game at large. If only other classes were so coddled.

Sona x RubickNov 10, 20162 votes

not sure about you, but when morde was op i was countering him with jax (and jax was op at this time)

only bullshit thing was that morde ended up lvl 13 while i was lvl 11. but they olafed his entire kit.

RalanrNov 10, 20164 votes

Because it's a team game and Riot is trying to remove the solo carry mindset?

Big LincolnNov 10, 20162 votes

probably one of the biggest reasons their game has lost players

it's absolutely retarded that solo carrying can't happen anymore. if I get fed, and then outplay the other team who is also fed, I should be able to come out on top despite my team's feeding. also provides us with needlessly limited, prohibitive kits like Mordekaiser and Kalista

RalanrNov 10, 20164 votes

Honestly that's a bit selfish. No matter how good the quarterback is, he can't do his job if the linemen can't do theirs worth a damn.

Whenever someone goes out of their way to announce that they're leaving they usually give a rant that leads me to believe that the game is better off without them or that the game doesn't suit their tastes.

I can understand the desire to solo carry, but I don't think that should be something that happens except in extreme scenarios.

Tychusfindlay919Nov 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Honestly that's a bit selfish. No matter how good the quarterback is, he can't do his job if the linemen can't do theirs worth a damn.

Whenever someone goes out of their way to announce that they're leaving they usually give a rant that leads me to believe that the game is better off without them or that the game doesn't suit their tastes.

I can understand the desire to solo carry, but I don't think that should be something that happens except in extreme scenarios.

I'm starting to take a hiatus from League of Legends in favor of Fallout 4. Honestly though, it has nothing to do with not really being able to solo carry.

My issue with the game is that with every patch that comes out, believe it or not, Darius just goes a wee bit further into the dumpster. I used to be able to feel good about playing Darius knowing that at least I can scale into some real teamfight potential with a rough laning phase. But now that tanks and melee fighters have lost so much prevalence in top lane compared to ranged douchebags and I have little to no itemization counters against ranged because item 1054 sucks ass and the masteries we got in the resolve tree compared to the masteries the ferocity tree got (fresh blood, ugh), laning has become an absolute bitch that I can almost never recover from because it's almost always highly unfavorable (sorry for that massive run-on lol).

And now whatever scale I had has been dampened too because of the consistent watering down of tank items (this has been occuring throughout season 6 and the end of season 5) and juggernaut items partially because ranged assholes abuse them (juggernaut items in particular). Another dampening factor is that ranged items have only gotten better or were barely nerfed.

Now Riot plans on buffing bork back to what it was. Why, for the love of god, can't tanks have any expensive late game options that are weak early game? As it is right now, tanks aren't even strong early game anymore. Melee tanks and juggernauts get absolutely fucking cucked to hell by ranged, and late game they just get outscaled in general. If you play a tank or juggernaut, you either make something happen mid game, or you were just a dead weight throughout the entire game.

I don't care about the solo carry potential, I just want juggernauts to stop losing viability with every new patch that comes out. I'm not MaliciousMetal, I won't just stand around for seasons waiting for some item changes or champ kit changes (TBH darius's kit is perfectly fine, it's the meta and current/future item changes that are making him slowly lose win rate, play rate, and ban rate). I'll just, even if only temporarily, quit the game.

I'm sorry, I know your post wasn't addressing me, I just figured I'd share and you're a fellow melee main I respect. Q_Q

RalanrNov 10, 20161 votes

Again I don't think juggernauts don't need help, I just feel that giving them some hard CC would be too much. The only juggernauts that actually have hard CC are Darius and Volibear, which help them stand out a little.

I don't exactly want to be stunned by Mundo, Garen, or Nasus and get smacked hard without being able to fight back (Nasus's slow late game is painful enough when trying to run).

I think buffing their items or maybe finding more ways to apply the grounded CC could help juggernauts out.

Tychusfindlay919Nov 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Again I don't think juggernauts don't need help, I just feel that giving them some hard CC would be too much. The only juggernauts that actually have hard CC are Darius and Volibear, which help them stand out a little.

I don't exactly want to be stunned by Mundo, Garen, or Nasus and get smacked hard without being able to fight back (Nasus's slow late game is painful enough when trying to run).

I think buffing their items or maybe finding more ways to apply the grounded CC could help juggernauts out.

The best way to buff juggernauts without any potential of breaking them would be to buff tank items in general (particularly, by creating or strengthening later game tank items) and to put gates on current juggernaut itemization that punish ranged abusers (cleaver should be half effective with ranged users).

The only juggernaut I care about, darius, is actually fine in terms of kit (maybe a slight revert on his q nerf, but nothing drastic). It's really just itemization, Im really fighting for tanks and juggernauts, not just juggernauts, even though my only goal is keeping darius as viable as possible.

RalanrNov 10, 20162 votes

I'm the same with Sion. I don't want him to get nerfed because suddenly juggernauts got stupid.

Riot really should just add a melee only limitation. After the Steraks nerf marksmen don't build it anymore.

Having a class that scales on items is a pain in the ass.

Tychusfindlay919Nov 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I'm the same with Sion. I don't want him to get nerfed because suddenly juggernauts got stupid.

Riot really should just add a melee only limitation. After the Steraks nerf marksmen don't build it anymore.

Having a class that scales on items is a pain in the ass.

Agreed, I know riot doesnt like pidgeon-holing builds, but if we're to continue on with the existence of tanks and juggernauts with current itemization, we need to make certain concessions, and the biggest ones we have to make is changing items so that ranged abusers can fuck off what was intended for fighters and tanks.

RalanrNov 10, 20162 votes

Especially since fighters and tanks rarely have equal build diversity.

Sure there's full AP Alistair and Zac here and there, but those builds only make them squishier and weaker to their kiting weakness at the cost of more damage.

Steraks on Vayne? Lol what weakness?

Ravenous HowlsNov 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Especially since fighters and tanks rarely have equal build diversity.

Sure there's full AP Alistair and Zac here and there, but those builds only make them squishier and weaker to their kiting weakness at the cost of more damage.

Steraks on Vayne? Lol what weakness?

That is exactly the problem though. You can't abuse ADC items as a melee the same way you can abuse juggernaut items on an ADC. By giving the melee only treatment to IBG, BC, Frozen Mallet and Sterak's you are ensuring that the class that is intended to use them can and that ranges carries can't abuse their offensive and defensive stats.

Vayne deals %health true damage. She doesn't need a 50% base AD steroid from Steraks with a shield that's better than blood thirster making her extremely tanky and giving her even more burst. Would you want Nasus's Q to proc multiple times with Runuin's Hurricane for all of it's on hit effect? No and people would be clamoring for an instant nerf but wait! The item is ranged only so no dice anyways.

These items were intended to make juggernauts, bruisers and fighter beefy enough to slog into a fight and not die instantly because the source of their power is all in melee range. They generally don't have a way out and if they do have a good engage they are probably not getting out until the fight is over.

Point is marksman should be more high risk with their builds. they should only be able to do terrific damage if they build for damage. They shouldn't be hard to kill b/c they bought steraks and frozen mallet/ IBG.

RalanrNov 10, 20162 votes

Agreed. But for some reason Riot can't seem to approach this.

This might be why melee carries don't work.

Ravenous HowlsNov 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'm starting to take a hiatus from League of Legends in favor of Fallout 4. Honestly though, it has nothing to do with not really being able to solo carry.

My issue with the game is that with every patch that comes out, believe it or not, just goes a wee bit further into the dumpster. I used to be able to feel good about playing Darius knowing that at least I can scale into some real teamfight potential with a rough laning phase. But now that tanks and melee fighters have lost so much prevalence in top lane compared to ranged douchebags and I have little to no itemization counters against ranged because sucks ass and the masteries we got in the resolve tree compared to the masteries the ferocity tree got (fresh blood, ugh), laning has become an absolute bitch that I can almost never recover from because it's almost always highly unfavorable (sorry for that massive run-on lol).

And now whatever scale I had has been dampened too because of the consistent watering down of tank items (this has been occuring throughout season 6 and the end of season 5) and juggernaut items partially because ranged assholes abuse them (juggernaut items in particular). Another dampening factor is that ranged items have only gotten better or were barely nerfed.

Now Riot plans on buffing bork back to what it was. Why, for the love of god, can't tanks have any expensive late game options that are weak early game? As it is right now, tanks aren't even strong early game anymore. Melee tanks and juggernauts get absolutely fucking cucked to hell by ranged, and late game they just get outscaled in general. If you play a tank or juggernaut, you either make something happen mid game, or you were just a dead weight throughout the entire game.

I don't care about the solo carry potential, I just want juggernauts to stop losing viability with every new patch that comes out. I'm not MaliciousMetal, I won't just stand around for seasons waiting for some item changes or champ kit changes (TBH darius's kit is perfectly fine, it's the meta and current/future item changes that are making him slowly lose win rate, play rate, and ban rate). I'll just, even if only temporarily, quit the game.

I'm sorry, I know your post wasn't addressing me, I just figured I'd share and you're a fellow melee main I respect. Q_Q

This is truly the biggest offender of the juggernaut class is their items have been nerfed so hard due to ranged carries abusing them.

IBG is a great piece of evidence in this regard. It makes Ezreal and Karma extremely tanky, taking away an intended weakness and gives them a crap ton of damage due to the on hit mechanics in their kits.

Black Cleaver is another on being abused on Lucian and MF. It gives them beef and an absurd amount of early game power with the shred on their ults.

Honestly the way to fix this is simple. Make them both melee only. Problem solved.

AhristocatsNov 10, 20165 votes

can you explain to me how?

because i don't see any mages relying on allies. neither do ranged top laners.

RalanrNov 10, 20166 votes

The amount of times I've had to peel for my Syndra last night says tells me otherwise.

As for ranged top laners, they tend to fall off after laning phase if their team has no frontline (which is likely because they took a ranged top laner) against a team that knows how to teamfight. If up against an uncoordinated mess or a team that's constantly splitpushing, a ranged top laner is probably not going to look like they fall off.

Note that I really do despise ranged top laners, but using them as an example as not needing their team isn't really strength to support that juggernauts don't need their team. It means that ranged top laners need to get a look at.

Tychusfindlay919Nov 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

The amount of times I've had to peel for my Syndra last night says tells me otherwise.

As for ranged top laners, they tend to fall off after laning phase if their team has no frontline (which is likely because they took a ranged top laner) against a team that knows how to teamfight. If up against an uncoordinated mess or a team that's constantly splitpushing, a ranged top laner is probably not going to look like they fall off.

Note that I really do despise ranged top laners, but using them as an example as not needing their team isn't really strength to support that juggernauts don't need their team. It means that ranged top laners need to get a look at.

(which is likely because they took a ranged top laner)

Not at all. If anything, top lane is no longer confined to bruisers and tanks. The LCS showed us very clearly that the trend is starting to go heavily towards ranged top laners.

Tanks and juggernauts are being taken jungle many of the time because that's the only place they have any real safety anymore. Many teams are being drafted with a one man frontline because having ranged is too good to pass up. Even melee supports have been looked down upon for the most part.

Chamuel85Nov 10, 20164 votes

Read the actual Juggernaut class update. They explain pretty much everything.

Juggernauts = kill you if you get up close. however lack mobility in their kits.

Big LincolnNov 10, 20163 votes

becus we aren't allowed to have CC or, apparently any defensive steroids.

2bh juggernauts don't have enough in their kits to be viable unless they're strong as fuck at what they have

VoidStaresBackNov 10, 20163 votes

Every juggernaut has some kind of sustain or defensive steroid in their kit. Nasus has Soul Eater and Fury of the Sands, Darius has Decimate, Mordekaiser and Illaoi have pretty much their entire kit giving them sustain in some form or another, Trundle has Subjugate, Olaf has Ragnarok and Vicious Strikes, Garen has Courage, Shyvana has Dragonborn, Udyr has Turtle Stance, Dr. Mundo has Masochism, Volibear has Chosen of the Storm, and Yorick has Last Rites.

Big LincolnNov 10, 20162 votes

it's mostly sustain; they aren't given shields to absorb any burst or any means of negating damage. they're expected to take whatever burst comes their way and in Darius Illaoi 's case, to heal before they get bursted again

RalanrNov 10, 20161 votes

Sometimes it works really well. Other times (Garen) not so much.

Big LincolnNov 10, 20162 votes

garen needs a way to heal in fights, is the problem.

I will suggest at every opportunity that a successful execute with his ult give him a heal

RalanrNov 10, 20163 votes

But then he's got in combat and out of combat sustain built into his kit. I'm not sure it's a good idea to have both.

Tychusfindlay919Nov 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

But then he's got in combat and out of combat sustain built into his kit. I'm not sure it's a good idea to have both.

Rework his dumbass passive.

No juggernaut should have an out-of-combat sustain built in to their kit. They're immobile fighters that get in the fight and never leave.

MordepoolNov 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Every juggernaut has some kind of sustain or defensive steroid in their kit. Nasus has Soul Eater and Fury of the Sands, Darius has Decimate, Mordekaiser and Illaoi have pretty much their entire kit giving them sustain in some form or another, Trundle has Subjugate, Olaf has Ragnarok and Vicious Strikes, Garen has Courage, Shyvana has Dragonborn, Udyr has Turtle Stance, Dr. Mundo has Masochism, Volibear has Chosen of the Storm, and Yorick has Last Rites.

Morde only has his W sustain. His most boring ability

VoidStaresBackNov 10, 20161 votes

On top of his refreshable passive, his actual defensive steroid.

Malicious MetalNov 10, 20167 votes

Damage and durability doesn't really help if you lack A) mobility B) CC

As you won't be able to get it off

That's why the best bruisers are those who have one of those with similar damage output to classic juggernauts.

Big LincolnNov 10, 20166 votes

pretty much.

i don't see a problem with giving juggernauts short-ranged stuns, but for all the free shit that ADCs and a good handful of bruisers have gotten, they're surprisingly conservative about letting juggernauts have anything else.

Malicious MetalNov 10, 20162 votes

I feel Juggernauts should have CC, but only single target more often than not and only in their comfort zone, a.k.a melee ranged/400 range tops.

All your damage won't mean shit if you can't make use of it, that's why most Juggernauts last worlds were only working because they were enabled through picks like Lulu.

Hell, Morde Jungle this year only worked because of Karma and their team having strong cc themselves.

Big LincolnNov 10, 20161 votes

that's what I said. very short-range CC. I would prefer if it was powerful to compensate for their immobility; and in that range the only way a single-target CC will work is if it's targeted. not that i have a problem with that; too much aoe in the game anyway.

SpecterVonBarenNov 10, 20161 votes

So basically pre juggernaut Skarner.

Big LincolnNov 10, 20161 votes

Pretty much yeah.

Conditional CC would be perfect for these dudes

RalanrNov 10, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qoA2cLXW,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2016-11-10T13:50:51.866+0000)

pretty much.

i don't see a problem with giving juggernauts short-ranged stuns, but for all the free shit that ADCs and a good handful of bruisers have gotten, they're surprisingly conservative about letting juggernauts have anything else.

Picture someone with the damage output and CC of Riven but now has the stats of a juggernaut. That's what giving a juggernaut a short range stun would be like.

It'd basically make every duel one sided for them and they'd be nerfed to basic fighters again to compensate.

Big LincolnNov 10, 20162 votes

they aren't mobile enough to apply it on anyone that doesn't run into them.

Renekton JarvanIV aren't particularly offensive despite having good bases and high damage. And mobility.

RalanrNov 10, 20166 votes

So suddenly we're going to compare divers to juggernauts?

I'm not saying juggernauts aren't weak at the moment. The game really makes their weakness easy to abuse. But I feel that giving them CC would dangerously blur the lines between a tank and a juggernaut.

Why play a tank to lock someone down for your team to kill when you can play a juggernaut that can lock someone down and kill them alone?

I think that some juggernauts need some better numbers and more self benefiting utility (or easier access to more tenacity). Anything to help them that prevents them from stepping on the toes of tanks.

Big LincolnNov 10, 20163 votes

because most tanks offer AoE to lock down multiple people; a single target stun wouldn't be particularly offensive. it's especially generous given how strength heroes (juggernaut equivalent) in other games very commonly have hard CC that works on multiple people.

juggernaut CC can be balanced out by having higher than average cooldown, short range (no tank has short range other than Shen, who's shit anyway), and either single target or a low likelihood of hitting more than one person

RalanrNov 10, 20161 votes

Idk man. It could work but it negates their intended weakness in fights. They'll just become tanky short ranged divers.

Big LincolnNov 10, 20162 votes

not really, they would still have it easier fighting other melee

just makes it so for a brief moment they can stop hyper mobile champs from """outplaying""" them or have a little more time to reposition

MordepoolNov 10, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qoA2cLXW,comment-id=000000010000000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-10T16:00:40.308+0000)

not really, they would still have it easier fighting other melee

just makes it so for a brief moment they can stop hyper mobile champs from """outplaying""" them or have a little more time to reposition

I have been very vocal about adding the grounded CC on Mordekaiser.

Critmaster GarenNov 10, 20163 votes

and this is why it was a good choice to design a juggernaut around duo laning and replacing the marksman on the team.

im actually fine being reliant on the support of my team to carry. but this is why marksmen update sucked. it buffed them to shit op levels, when at the end of season 5 you could basically carry from any lane. including with a jugg on top lane. the team could just decide to support the bruiser in fights and skirmishes instead of the marksman when he got ahead in lane, and he was able to carry just as well.

LlaniteNov 10, 20163 votes

In a vacuum, DPS, defense and utility is a triangle and you can only have two.

Yi, Tryn, Riven -> High DPS, high uitlity, low defense. Darius, Garen -> High DPS, high defense, low utility. Leona, Thresh, Blitz -> High defense, high utility, low DPS.

Commit SudokuNov 10, 20162 votes

why are champions required to have other champions on the team to win the game....

cuz its a team game?

Swiftstrike4Nov 10, 20162 votes

Juggernauts are going to be on the rise this preseason and I think they are going to be really, really strong in the next few patches.

I think riot sees this occurring and is viewing the juggernauts as a foil to keep assassins in check.

Why do I think that?

- First this item change and the removal/altering of flat armor penetration to lethality effectively reduced the early damage of several items. Lethality scales better, but its early use is being capped or lowered than several other flat armor pen items.
- just received a buff and has a buff in PBE - I wouldn't be surprised if we see tweaks on other juggernauts
- This item will be changing in the near future, and with the change less mages will probably build it and the potency of its slow will likely be reduced - this helps this class specifically
- Items will also change - some items that juggernaut build have become cheaper on PBE - I think we will see more items become a little less costly
- The heavy play of the assassins - juggernauts are largely a perfect counter to this class and with all the assassins being played we will see a rise in juggernaut use. I think the win rates of several will begin creeping up

I think the class was a little weak for most of season 6 and riot saw this as well.

They said they will be revisiting the juggernauts in the past and they never did. They are probably doing that this preseason. They will be seeing buffs, direct or indirect over preseason and by the end of it they should be all in pretty good spots. Well everyone except Mordekaiser . He needs a rework and will continue to stink until then.

I think at the start of the season the juggernauts will be relatively strong compared to other classes.

TequilaZombieNov 10, 20162 votes

Because they are supposed to deal ADC levels of damage while being tanky as hell to survive in melee. They are the new melee carries.

Just like ADCs need peel so they can kite, Juggs need CC and initiation so they don't get kited.

AhristocatsNov 10, 20161 votes

so what you're telling me is that they should replace adc in some strategies?

TequilaZombieNov 10, 20161 votes

I'm telling that they possibly could.

An AD jugger could do enough phisical dmg to nullify the need of an ADC. However, it would fall on the mid laner the duty of damaging turrets on sieges. And it's possible that the Jungle and the support would have to be tailored for it. It would also bring the question: who's bot and who's top?

I'd go with the following comp:

Jugger Top (most likely Darius, as he's arguably the strongest one now) CC/utility heavy Jungler CC/poke mage Mid Siege Mage Bot CC heavy Support

Something like Darius Top, Naut/Malph/Amumu jungle, Liss/Syndra/Xerath/Viktor (with Rylai's) mid, Ziggs bot with a Lich Bane, Ivern support.

Can work, but it wouldn't be easy.