According to them its too hard to win games where you have a lead and will inevitably win. You know what would fucking solve this problem better than buffing objectives and nerfing turrets?
MAKING IT SO EVERY FUCKING GAME WASNT DECIDED BY 10 MINUTES AND PEOPLE ACTUALLY HAD A FUCKING CHANCE TO COME BACK.
potchiker38 votesWhy are people downvoting this?
heroikc54 votesWhy are people downvoting this?
No doubt because they are mindless one-tricks and braindead no skill assassins who revel in snowballing.
TempName5484610 voteshow do one-tricks revel in snowballing?
Galihan7 votesbecause "ggez, i carried hard"
heroikc8 voteshow do one-tricks revel in snowballing?
With assassins, instaburst anyone in reach, maybe two or three. Never fall behind and be godlike.
Azeranth5 votesThat's a valid playstyle, the game design should not cater to or shun them. Getting ahead, killing the enemy on cooldown, and 1v9ing the game is a total valid way to play the game. It should not be consistent, but it should be fun and plausible if you have the skill to execute and the enemy provides you the opportunity to do so.
Troll for Trump3 votesYeah, those are the only things that snowball in this game. /s
Auz the Ripper3 votesI’m pretty sure most assassin mains want longer games too. You see, if the games are long we can get more kills and more and MORE
heroikc2 votes[{quoted}](name=Auz the Ripper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qlkAhYBu,comment-id=000000000003,timestamp=2018-06-19T15:53:01.441+0000)
I’m pretty sure most assassin mains want longer games too. You see, if the games are long we can get more kills and more and MORE
In Snowball metas, they can kill anyone and not give a darn. Also, longer games would invalidate leads and give teams time to recover if possible. Seriously. What stops them (Zed, Kat, Talon, etc) from getting a 10+ kill lead by 20 minutes?
Azeranth1 votesassassins are late game champions, what sets them apart from a bruiser like renekton, who has similar burst potential, is whether or not the have the kit to continue executing the enemy in the late game. Assasains are most effective when they can create large power deficits by eliminating a member who is more valuable than them.
heroikc1 votesassassins are late game champions, what sets them apart from a bruiser like renekton, who has similar burst potential, is whether or not the have the kit to continue executing the enemy in the late game. Assasains are most effective when they can create large power deficits by eliminating a member who is more valuable than them.
They do that well...but do they have to keep doing it with no repercussions or no means to consistently halt them?
Azeranth1 votesWhy would riot provide a reliable way to deny someones reward for picking a high risk champion, that requires mechanical skill and superior gameplay to get a lead. Assassins can't assassinate unless they're ahead, or at least they shouldn't. Once they reach that, they earned it, and ifthy steam roll you, too bad, they're a better player
heroikc1 votesWhy would riot provide a reliable way to deny someones reward for picking a high risk champion, that requires mechanical skill and superior gameplay to get a lead. Assassins can't assassinate unless they're ahead, or at least they shouldn't. Once they reach that, they earned it, and ifthy steam roll you, too bad, they're a better player
What about for players who made one small mistake and are disallowed recovery by any means? Are you saying that just because they died once, they have to die so many more times because the assassin just got a lead?
Besides, you said it yourself; assassins are high risk, high reward. There's no problem with adding at least a little more risk to their initiations, particularly for champions that can be comparatively easy to outplay (lone ADCs, immobile mages, etc.) An item or rune that gives some sort of active (a la stopwatch or Barrier, but something that can build into something mildly utilitarian) should do just fine.
Azeranth1 votesNo, if they've beaten you once, you must beat them from the disadvantaged position to prove that you are actually the better player. I said 9/10 times. If they get you 1/2 times, you should still be on fairly even footing, except in cases where external conditions made their kill more valuable such as the status of the minon wave
heroikc1 votesNo, if they've beaten you once, you must beat them from the disadvantaged position to prove that you are actually the better player. I said 9/10 times. If they get you 1/2 times, you should still be on fairly even footing, except in cases where external conditions made their kill more valuable such as the status of the minon wave
Kill them to prove you are better? Is this a game of egos?
How do I do that? Buy stopwatch and hope they're stupid enough to dive me? Get jungler to help, assuming they don't judge your lane "unsalvagable"? Gank another lane to farm up and hope the assassin doesn't follow you or gank a separate lane using their lead?
I mean, "even footing" may account for a level, maybe two, but how about items? Gold?
I mean, it is not like they can't roam from their lane to a HVT like bot lane. It's not physically possible and illogical, is it?
Azeranth1 votesAssassins are (or at least should be) balanced around the idea of small victories. Whether its forcing you out of lane, getting off an invade, making a roam, or just killing you they gain a small victory each time. They should start from the disadvantage, then after the first victory, be even with you. You must either knock them back down by winning some victory over them, or, they will end up with the advantage in all subsequent fights. Then you're on the ropes. If you lose again, you had 3 chances, and you flubbed all of them. The other player earned the victory. So if you want to tear them back down, you're gonna have to pull off something just as impressive as them beating you all those times in a row, even when they themselves were on the back foot, you have to win from behind once, which levels out the playing feild a little bit. Its now easier, and the hole is not as deep. Then you have to do it again. And remmber the assassin depend on constantly extending their lead. If you manage to halt their lead, for even 3 attempts, it doesnt matter that you're behind because you've put them on a downward spiral. Thats what makes it balacned
heroikc1 votesAssassins are (or at least should be) balanced around the idea of small victories. Whether its forcing you out of lane, getting off an invade, making a roam, or just killing you they gain a small victory each time. They should start from the disadvantage, then after the first victory, be even with you. You must either knock them back down by winning some victory over them, or, they will end up with the advantage in all subsequent fights. Then you're on the ropes. If you lose again, you had 3 chances, and you flubbed all of them. The other player earned the victory. So if you want to tear them back down, you're gonna have to pull off something just as impressive as them beating you all those times in a row, even when they themselves were on the back foot, you have to win from behind once, which levels out the playing feild a little bit. Its now easier, and the hole is not as deep. Then you have to do it again. And remmber the assassin depend on constantly extending their lead. If you manage to halt their lead, for even 3 attempts, it doesnt matter that you're behind because you've put them on a downward spiral. Thats what makes it balacned
And that's what is so unfun about assassins (and snowballing in general); they're unfun to play as because one loss=deadweight. They're unfun to play because one loss=i'ma going to die again. And what's stopping an assassin from securing a lead from somewhere other than their own lane? They can roam bot and get two more kills, invade the jungler, quash the top lane, just to name a few options. You can't just hope they be dummies and die, you're right, but most aren't stupid enough to stay in one place; they got a small victory, now they press their advantage. What's the point of pinning someone down if they either can roam away or just ambush you later?
heroikc1 votesAssassins are (or at least should be) balanced around the idea of small victories. Whether its forcing you out of lane, getting off an invade, making a roam, or just killing you they gain a small victory each time. They should start from the disadvantage, then after the first victory, be even with you. You must either knock them back down by winning some victory over them, or, they will end up with the advantage in all subsequent fights. Then you're on the ropes. If you lose again, you had 3 chances, and you flubbed all of them. The other player earned the victory. So if you want to tear them back down, you're gonna have to pull off something just as impressive as them beating you all those times in a row, even when they themselves were on the back foot, you have to win from behind once, which levels out the playing feild a little bit. Its now easier, and the hole is not as deep. Then you have to do it again. And remmber the assassin depend on constantly extending their lead. If you manage to halt their lead, for even 3 attempts, it doesnt matter that you're behind because you've put them on a downward spiral. Thats what makes it balacned
OK, here's a compromise; I own a few assassins that I bought offhand (including Zed...I had two shards of him for some reason, so don't ask) and enough to maybe buy a few more. I learn to play and use them in normals and see if you are right. If you are, I'll shut up about assassin burst being broken. If not, you'll never hear the end of it. Sound fine?
AirKingNeo4 votesgreat stereotyping people
heroikc7 votesgreat stereotyping people
Not like I'm not wrong; Riot made a fast-paced meta that rewards early initiative and securing early leads. Who can do this the easiest? Mostly assassins, sometimes divers. The result? A 2-3 level lead on them, deadly roams, and a feeling of dread as no one can either a.) pop off fast enough or b.) do anything to actually stop them.
AirKingNeo6 votesCalling people "mindless one tricks" and "braindead no skill assassins" is still stereotyping.
Azeranth1 votesA game which rewards early aggression and good play making to gain an advantage is very healthy. The issue is when assains begin stepping on the toes of other roles, in their capacity to extend this lead to others.
heroikc1 votesA game which rewards early aggression and good play making to gain an advantage is very healthy. The issue is when assains begin stepping on the toes of other roles, in their capacity to extend this lead to others.
Don't get me wrong; such rewards, I'm fine with. Riot is just giving too much in this sense and disallowing proper recovery.
Azeranth1 votesTo be a carry, an assassin must be ahead. To get there, they had to consistently outplay you and keep doing it to maintain this lea. This also does not refer strictly to mechanical skill in the moment. It also means vision, map control, and positioning. Just because you beat the assassin once, doesn't mean their streak should be over. They beat you 9/10 times, and you only beat the once. YOu have to win 8 more times before you return to even footing. Thats fair
heroikc1 votesTo be a carry, an assassin must be ahead. To get there, they had to consistently outplay you and keep doing it to maintain this lea. This also does not refer strictly to mechanical skill in the moment. It also means vision, map control, and positioning. Just because you beat the assassin once, doesn't mean their streak should be over. They beat you 9/10 times, and you only beat the once. YOu have to win 8 more times before you return to even footing. Thats fair
You do realize that "constantly outplay you" is not as hard as you make it sound, especially when playing against the solo queue population. Assassins have plenty blinks (Kat, Zed, the trash clown, Kass) or means to become invulnerable (Kayn, Fizz, trash clown again, Eve). And it's not like the towers can protect us forever.
Also, I rather think of it as "beat a snowballer once, the field is even". Having an opponent 5 levels ahead of you for three deaths may or may not be fair, but it is hardly "fun".
Azeranth1 votesWell, If you're willing to sacrifice fun for fair, then thats how you get Yi with early game power and overloaded champions like Rakan, Camille and Irelia. No one like to be told they suck, and even few like to have it proven to them, but sometimes you really are just the inferior player, and there is nothing wrong with having that demonstrated to you by being bent over by a 10/0 Zed.
The assassin starts from the disadvantage, gets one victory over you, whatever it is, and your level, the next puts them ahead, and the next further ahead and this keeps stacking over and over. You had 3 chances, now if you want to undo everything the other player worked so hard for, you better be damn ready to beat them, kill them, and use their death window to level the playing feild
GinormousVner2 votesI see nothing wrong with people who revel in snowballing. If you allow someone to snowball early then that's your own fault for sucking at the game.
It's much better than the game becoming "Lol, remember when you dumpstered me in the 1v1 early game? Well I guess i'm gonna outscale you now, LOL OUT PLAYED"
Done2515 votesWhy are people downvoting this?
Because his post makes no sense and is overtly hostile.
Naono9 votesIt's getting downvoted because he does not propose a solution. Instead he rejects a (bad) one and insert none, which is worst. Might as well said nothing.
Karunamon5 votesTIL you have to design the game to point out what sucks about it
FutureCreator3 votesExcept no one is arguing that games SHOULD be decided at 10 minutes. Buffing objectives is a proposed solution to this (though maybe not the best). Saying "don't solve the problem this way, JUST SOLVE THE PROBLEM" isn't constructive and is just pointless.
Amoc6 votesExcept no one is arguing that games SHOULD be decided at 10 minutes. Buffing objectives is a proposed solution to this (though maybe not the best). Saying "don't solve the problem this way, JUST SOLVE THE PROBLEM" isn't constructive and is just pointless.
Voicing a complaint isn't pointless. That's silly to say.
Even sillier is the idea that you need to have a proposed solution in order to voice a complaint. We're not game designers or programmers. Our suggestions, more often than not, aren't even remotely helpful.
NaturesMayhem2 votesThat's not the point at all... He's saying that it doesn't take much effort to point out the issues in a game, anybody can do it. The issue is solving the problem; by just complaining about the issue, you aren't exactly helping the situation. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the statue of league atm, I fucking hate it. But these constant posts that only complain and whine, they don't do anything to solve the issue, so they're just constant repeats of the same complaints.
HeeroTX4 votesI completely, utterly, 100% agree with OP's all caps statement. That said, the post doesn't make sense. IF both teams have a chance in every game and IF the "losing" team has a chance to come back, then how the HELL does that solve the "problem" of games being too hard to close out when you're ahead?!? IMO, not being able to close out means you're not good enough or you're not good at using your lead. That is not a PROBLEM that needs to be solved, that's players being bad.
BigSquirrell2 votes{quoted} IMO, not being able to close out means you're not good enough or you're not good at using your lead. That is not a PROBLEM that needs to be solved, that's players being bad.
I've been playing for three-and-half years, and this was the attitude players and Riot had for pretty much my first year of playing and it was great. When Riot shifted to making it easier for games to finish when ahead (way back in patch 5.23 with the minions being stronger for the team that's ahead to make it easier to push towers when ahead and harder to manipulate your minion wave to push out and buy time when behind), things started slowly going downhill a bit as far as game quality for me, and that just got worse and worse as more changes were made to make closing out games easier because it makes snowballing so much more important.
It's particularly sad because they said sometime around pre-season 6 (I think, it may have been a little later) that they didn't want stalling to be such a strong tactic but that they didn't want to eliminate it as a possible option. It's felt more and more as time has gone on that playing safe isn't supposed to be an option even when at a small deficit, though, with the very notable exception of earlier this year when late-game wave clear made defending sieges far too easy.
Caretaker Jack1 votesWhy are people downvoting this?
Because that's how we got here in the first place.
8.12 is just like the first few seasons where you could bring anything to bot lane... All that changed when people stuck labels on champions and decided people had to play them where they were best. Then it escalated to people wanting it to be about team play and that made games longer. People didn't like 40 minute games and they hated that their skill expression depended on other people... From there it was the whole, "a good player cant win the game anymore." and "it's not fair that the better team win instead of the better player."
So now were back in the cycle. And here comes this guy upset that good players are snowballing too hard and there aren't enough chances to come back in the game because it's set to end at 20 minutes and decided at 15... I'm not saying he's wrong, but do you see why some people would be upset?
potchiker1 votesNow its still the same, A good player really cant carry its still a coinflip Its just that gzmes end too fast and one side wins too hard
Caretaker Jack1 votesNow its still the same, A good player really cant carry its still a coinflip Its just that gzmes end too fast and one side wins too hard
from my experience. its a lot more likely... but ill digress
Vekkna16 votesFirst they'll need to fix the problem with champs whose only win condition (or macro counterplay, in the reverse) is crushing early or crushing late.
In mid right now, the only counterplay to assassins is to rush Zhonya's and try to not die very many times before you hit 2900g + mana item. Then you're mostly useless because you have 75 AP and none of the items in your core build. The only real chance you have is by stalling out.
LegitBusinessman3 votesFirst they'll need to fix the problem with champs whose only win condition (or macro counterplay, in the reverse) is crushing early or crushing late.
In mid right now, the only counterplay to assassins is to rush Zhonya's and try to not die very many times before you hit 2900g + mana item. Then you're mostly useless because you have 75 AP and none of the items in your core build. The only real chance you have is by stalling out.
I don't think that would be good. Win conditions are just that, win conditions. It's exciting to have your spike early and feel like time is against you. It's exciting to play an immobile scaling marksman and slowly grow into a big boy who gets to bully the bullies. What your suggesting is just homogenization of champ pool which would be less strategic and less exciting tbh.
GigglesO5 votes[{quoted}](name=Nausicäa ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qlkAhYBu,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-06-19T04:35:35.632+0000)
According to them its too hard to win games where you have a lead and will inevitably win.
Wait, does that mean they want higher snowball?
CasterGilgamesh3 votesyes basically yes they actively made snowball worse lol
Wacky92 votesYes, but the intent is high snowball late-game, but right now the snowball is showing up early game.
Pika Fox1 votesGames arent decided by 10 minutes. Unless a late game teamcomp beat your earlygame teamcomp early game you can still win. Hell, the longer the game goes on the higher the chances youll actually win because gold leads mean less and less the closer to 5 items you get.
Baron of Bread1 votesThe issue they are trying to solve is that if a team has a lead and will inevitably win then the inevitability will kick in sooner and you won't be stuck in a lost game for 20 minutes more than necessary.
Automated Riven4 votesHow about making it so a team is never going to inevitably win? That's what Is cancer about this game.
BigSquirrell2 votes[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qlkAhYBu,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-06-19T19:16:04.918+0000)
How about making it so a team is never going to inevitably win? That's what Is cancer about this game.
The best games I've had in League are the longer games with a lot of back-and-forth where it wasn't clear who was going to win. There were so many moments of positive intensity back then even if I was losing because I knew I had a chance if I played it right and it felt great to go through those rises and dips. The game feeling like there's an inevitable outcome early now just creates negative intensity for whoever starts losing and getting the snowball going on my side feels boring very quickly. I really miss the days when either team could win even if one side was a bit ahead.
Think it Thru2 votesBest game I had this season. Was when my team snowballed like crazy, but the other team stayed on point had insane vision, and successful ly stalled out the game till we fell off, and even tho we got their Nexus to 75 health we lost.
