So all mages are getting nerfed hard on the PBE

Nausicäa ·Apr 17, 2018·141 votes·22,304 views

Meanwhile ADCs, the most broken and impactful class with the highest no cooldown, no mana cost damage in the game go untouched?

Seriously what the fuck???????

158 Comments

Death by GlamourApr 17, 201890 votes

so they nerf Archangels staff because every mage bought it in one patch

and then force every mage into buying it in the next

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

MAGA MAN X 2020Apr 18, 201821 votes

Seriously! They can fire their entire balance team, buy a roulette wheel, and do an equally good job.

DessemApr 18, 20181 votes

They triple-whammy'd Archangel's.

Step 1. Nerf the Mana-to-AP percentage until Seraph's Embrace from 3% to 1%.

Step 2. Nerf Mana efficiency from 15% refund to 10% refund.

Step 3. Nerf mage total Mana numbers so the AP damage gained is reduced.

If a Mage got 1500 Mana before, she'll get 1200 now, or a 9 AP difference from what Seraph's used to give you. I wouldn't be surprised if Seraph's Embrace returns to being very niche.

I know many expect this forces Mages to buy Archangel's, but I predict Mages like Orianna, who have low Mana costs and are easily able to waveclear on low mana expenditures, will continue to shine without Archangel. Mages who suffered Mana problems before (like Lissandra or Lux) might see those issues exacerbated, but I expect the higher starting Mana will mitigate that.

d9u7c1anhApr 23, 20181 votes

But how about some champion that only shine post level 6, like my main Anivia (and trust me even Tear right now Anivia still very mana hungry). It would be great if Riot notice those post level 6 mage.

Nausicäa Apr 17, 201866 votes

"We want item diversity mid so we're gonna do a rework" "We also want to nerf the shit out of mana to force all mages to buy Archangels"

Genius.

Nausicäa Apr 17, 201864 votes

"We want to increase conflict around map objectives that provide sustain (Blue Buff and Ocean Drake), where recently the cost for ceding those objectives to the enemy has been much lower."

So mages are forced to get objectives just to be effective while no one else is? Cool.

VekknaApr 17, 20187 votes

If they gave blue buff a power level in the same universe as red buff, they might be contested.

FrostQueensPlaneApr 17, 201845 votes

Delete the 2 core AP items and replace them with half assed overpriced garbage.

Buff the living shit out of assassins because they can't kill ADCs through their e girl supports, don't nerf supports though meddler.

Nerf mana regen for mages only because why not.

ADC games doesn't want us to play league anymore.

Maybe you should consider why wave clearing mid is a thing. Maybe it's because if you don't wave clear and roam you can't win the game because all the power exists bot. Maybe you've creeped mobility so fucking hard that it isn't satisfying in the least to try and actually lane against the myriad of hyper mobile manaless bullshits you've put into the game. Maybe it's because every new "mage" you release just so happens to use less mana and out range all the "older" mages, so in the end every interaction is just one side garbage.

I dunno, or you can just keep putting your patented shit bandaids on an amputated limb and pray God will save league of legends.

Yo at least some of our posts about how retarded repetoir's -5 damage to creep change was for mages, yo at least that bit of insight leaked through that titanium skull of his.

Flawless FetusApr 18, 20184 votes

Worth pointing out that these mana nerfs hit supports to - indirectly nerfing adcs.

UltîmaApr 17, 201845 votes

That is the absolute worst way they could balance mages. Instead of changing mana costs based on which champions should have resource-management as a strength or weakness, they're making a sweeping changes to lump every mid laner into the same boat, fixing nothing at all. I think all this change will do will make lanes even more passive than before since farming, trading and engaging will be that much more punishing now.

This will also prop up manaless and energy champions even more, so get ready to see a lot more Zed Katarina mid, who have to trade nothing in exchange for their alternative resource.

item 3802 costing more than item 1058 is a complete joke, although now Viktor mains can at least now laugh at everyone else suffering the same kind of misery that they've been in for over a year.

Spicy RiceApr 17, 20186 votes

Ok, kat is stupid, I agree with that that, but saying energy champs trade nothing for their resource is kind of idiotic to put it mildly.

The benefit to mana, is that if you have enough of it, you can use your abilities on cooldown.

For energy, the benefit is having a resource that regents quickly, but the downside is having to heavily micro manage energy consumption in longer fights

NyarlathοtepApr 17, 201816 votes

The benefit to mana, is that if you have enough of it, you can use your abilities on cooldown.

_ is that if you have enough of it, you can use your abilities on cooldown._

** you can use your abilities on cooldown** use your abilities on cooldown are you fking high?

Spicy RiceApr 17, 20183 votes

Are you?

Tell me, can zed spam his rotation more easily than a mage with 1500+ mana?

Can akali, or kennen, or shen?

Hence why i said on cooldown, as while mana needs to be manged early on, later in the game, it requires relatively low management, and allows the player to concentrate on managing cooldowns.

In comparison, energy does not need to be managed much early, but in late game, where fights can be more drawn out, energy management becomes much more important than cooldown management.

AMYS GRAVEApr 18, 20188 votes

Tell me, can zed spam his rotation more easily than a mage with 1500+ mana?

ok, first, where are you getting 1500+ mana from?

Also, if zed hits his abilities he can sustain his energy for ~1:45 using his w on cd and his qe combo on the 6 sec cd. This is thanks to passive energy regen just being comparatively higher than mana regen and the energy returns built into his kit for double hitting his shurikens or shadow. That energy return proc works on minions too so its practically guaranteed because minions don't dodge.

So the answer is yes, yes he can FYI.

Spicy RiceApr 18, 20182 votes

1500+ is from the lowest champions max mana at level 18 (udyr) at 780.4 + the highest at level 18 (kassadin) at 1536.6 / 2 to average it out at approx 1100 and then adding 500 to account for one of the main mage items atm.

AMYS GRAVEApr 18, 20188 votes

ok, gotcha with the 1500 mana thing, but mages still can't spam abilities for as long as energy champions can.

Ahri (as an arbitrary example) using abilities on cd with 1500 mana lasts 65 seconds before going oom which means having to back entirely. As mentioned zed lasts nearly twice as long and when he's ooe, he just stops spamming abilities for 20 sec and is back to full while having to AA minions to farm like a peasant.

None of this is to mention how the mage had to invest several hundred gold into their resource, while energy champions get to build other things without being gated behind item purchases.

SyveApr 17, 20182 votes

Lol, you're getting downvoted for stating a fact. Gotta love these boards. Totally unbiased.

DivewingApr 17, 201825 votes

It's completely out of context.

Go play Karthus and spam wall and q with permanent E on toggle.

WATCH HOW QUICKLY YOU HIT OOM.

The TRUE benefit of energy is it is EFFECTIVELY limitless FROM THE GET GO, whereas mana needs to be specifically BUILT AROUND

NetorareApr 17, 201825 votes

ADC favoritism once again, where is the old balance team when u need it... League dying because of other games? nah, League is dying because of riot. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Dasdi96Apr 17, 20185 votes

{quoted}

ADC favoritism once again, where is the old balance team when u need it... League dying because of other games? nah, League is dying because of riot. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Gotta keep adcs overpowered so riot can jack it to adcs dealing burst per second.

LVL99 Helper TKApr 17, 201821 votes

Better Nerf Mages! LOL!!!!!!!!!

(meanwhile adc hehe)

Dope SoloApr 17, 201821 votes

These people are braindead. At this point I feel like the less they do, the better the game will be.

ProfirixApr 17, 201818 votes

I think the worst part about this is how hosed the bottom lane enchanters are getting. They are losing the mana regen on spell thief, and getting a nerf on frost fang. What is the point of starting the aggressive support item? You are better off getting 2-3 faerie charms and a potion if additional adjustments aren't made. So you can cast 3-4 spells in bot lane (and mid lane for that matter) and just stand there awkwardly while you try to auto the opponent without any mana.

This would be acceptable if bottom lane mages actually did any damage, but they don't. So you diddle the enemy carry while they life steal all of their health back and you can't do anything about it.

MY SUGGESTION: make enchanters in the bot lane more impactful. That way if you are going to destroy their mana pool and regen, they should at least be able to make smart decisions and capitalize all at once.

BestPudgeNAApr 17, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tongue in Cheek,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fEzoEG54,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-04-17T20:34:00.944+0000)

I think the worst part about this is how hosed the bottom lane enchanters are getting. They are losing the mana regen on spell thief, and getting a nerf on frost fang. What is the point of starting the aggressive support item? You are better off getting 2-3 faerie charms and a potion if additional adjustments aren't made. So you can cast 3-4 spells in bot lane (and mid lane for that matter) and just stand there awkwardly while you try to auto the opponent without any mana.

Lets be honest item 3301 and playing passive again is what will happen no fae charms

ProfirixApr 18, 20184 votes

I think you are right. Even though the mana generation from coin line is complete trash now. But it makes sense if you are just going to sit there and cast maybe one spell every minute.

Wild GeeseApr 17, 201817 votes

If they want less waveclear, how about this:

dramatic pause

Give minions more MR over time!! Instead of this mess.

You're welcome.

WolfeurApr 18, 20184 votes

Give minions more MR over time!!

AKA making ADCs even more needed than before while making last-hitting a pain for mages. Brilliant idea

BestPudgeNAApr 17, 201814 votes

Udyr Anit none of you mother fuckers touching my second blue buff summoner 11

no to toxicApr 17, 201810 votes

Guess we will see Lucian mid back soon to bully Zed in lane.

VekknaApr 17, 20189 votes

My favorite part is how they made CSing on a mage with AAs extremely miserable (and occasionally impossible), then follow up with broad mana nerfs to make it even harder to CS with spells.

+5 damage on minion autos is a fucking joke. The entire minion health change was nothing but a gold transfer to ADs.

ModWulf HelhammerApr 17, 20186 votes

ADCs, the most broken and impact class

No.

As for why they are nerfing mana: it's because too much waveclear in mid lane is making it uninteractive, either DPS mages or waveclear roamers. If people want more solo carry assassins and the like, waveclear can't be as strong.

Nausicäa Apr 17, 201825 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fEzoEG54,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:42:02.975+0000)

No.

As for why they are nerfing mana: it's because too much waveclear in mid lane is making it uninteractive, either DPS mages or waveclear roamers. If people want more solo carry assassins and the like, waveclear can't be as strong.

Except you're wrong and would actually realize this if you read the changes?

EARLY GAME MANA IS BUFFED LATE GAME MANA IS NERFED

How does BUFFING early game mana solve wave clear problem mid?

ModWulf HelhammerApr 17, 20183 votes

Level 1 mana is buffed, and that's to compensate for the reduced mana per level.

I read the changes. These are all nerfs with some slight compensation so that mages aren't useless at incredibly early levels.

BestPudgeNAApr 17, 20188 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fEzoEG54,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:47:05.568+0000)

Level 1 mana is buffed, and that's to compensate for the reduced mana per level.

I read the changes. These are all nerfs with some slight compensation so that mages aren't useless at incredibly early levels.

Mages aren't gonna end up with less mana regen though. It's gonna make them buy more mana regen in items and runes and end up with less damage.

ModWulf HelhammerApr 17, 20181 votes

Then that still has the net result of nerfing waveclear.

Which is the entire point of these changes.

And are seriously going to tell me that currently, people are having actual roams at level 6, outside of globals? Because assassins can’t, they don’t have the waveclear to do that. Regular mages are still not strong enough to be roaming around either.

BestPudgeNAApr 17, 201818 votes

[{quoted}](name= Król Wilk Sam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fEzoEG54,comment-id=00030000000000020000,timestamp=2018-04-17T23:38:20.597+0000)

Then that still has the net result of nerfing waveclear.

Which is the entire point of these changes.

And are seriously going to tell me that currently, people are having actual roams at level 6, outside of globals? Because assassins can’t, they don’t have the waveclear to do that. Regular mages are still not strong enough to be roaming around either.

No the net result is they buy item 3003 instead of item 3285 . A mage without mana is a worthless so if mana gets nerfed you buy more mana, a mage without damage is just another ADC peel bitch which is slightly better then worthless yet equally as depressing.

nm1010Apr 17, 20184 votes

Tear changes are just poorly thought out. Mana changes will make early backs more prevalent while simultaneously making early backs really awkward. Nothing changes once mid game hits and manaflow band kicks in.

######Initial impressions from 5 minutes of looking at the changes.

3 TearsApr 18, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nausicäa ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fEzoEG54,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:35:56.587+0000)

Meanwhile ADCs, the most broken and impactful class with the highest no cooldown, no mana cost damage in the game go untouched?

Seriously what the fuck???????

They should rename Lost chapter to needlessly expensive chapter item 3802 item 1058 :D

Attticus FinchApr 17, 20182 votes

Can someone who is not trash at the game explain how mages are being nerfed by these changes?

NyarlathοtepApr 17, 201813 votes

Ez pz. Less mana late game compared to live. D-ring got gutted. For some reason lost chapter cost more that needlessly large rod. And generally the fact that riot wants to nerf mage's waveclear when thats (almost always) their primary niche (together with cc).

xJLx MCHammerApr 17, 20188 votes

[{quoted}](name=Attticus Finch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fEzoEG54,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2018-04-17T22:28:04.239+0000)

Can someone who is not trash at the game explain how mages are being nerfed by these changes?

Basically at level 18, some AP champions won’t be able to make 2 rotations without any AP items

These changes kinda forces majority of AP champs to run Mana items like tear. Yet, riot needed the item till late game

Basically, riot needed early and mid game power of AP mages in hope it forced laners to interact more rather than spam abilities to clear waves. Furthermore total AP late game if you’re buying Serapis has been nerfed because all AP mages have less total mana

Extreme PersonApr 17, 20182 votes

oh god yes please kill the mages too. Mage nerf adc nerf and enchanter nerf and this game might actually be playable. No idea how people can hate OP adcs and love mages at the same time. Theyre both uninteractive time bombs that have way too much control over a game just by being in it.

rtbf221651412Apr 17, 201822 votes

[{quoted}](name=Extreme Person,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fEzoEG54,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2018-04-17T23:23:35.702+0000)

oh god yes please kill the mages too. Mage nerf adc nerf and enchanter nerf and this game might actually be playable. No idea how people can hate OP adcs and love mages at the same time. Theyre both uninteractive time bombs that have way too much control over a game just by being in it.

You serious? When did MR not hard counter mages while armor doesn't almost nothing to ADC's?

VICHEL CHAOSApr 17, 20181 votes

[deleted]

NineTailedMysticApr 17, 201813 votes

LOL. Mages don't have mana regen items anymore, they have flat mana items.

AvdotivaApr 18, 20181 votes

The thing that bothers me most about this (besides all of it) is the change to Spellthief's Edge. They just took away the Bandit passive which "grants gold when nearby enemy minions are killed by allies or when attacking enemy champions". This means I need to poke more with my abilities to get the increased tribute gold when I buy Frostfang. However, now I won't be able to poke in order to get gold because I'll have significantly less mana. Goodbye gold income. I don't get how you're supposed to play support mages anymore after this.

Abraxus followerApr 18, 20182 votes

Dont downvote me but cant you just auto attack towers and champ to get gold from spell theifs?

AvdotivaApr 18, 20182 votes

No, that's a good point. I hesitate to do that for two reasons. 1. You're not always in a position where you can push and auto towers so I don't think that's reliable. 2. I mainly play Lux, Sona, and Morgana. Lux and Sona have auto attack ranges of 550 and Morg has 450. A lot of ADCs have equal or higher range. So by the time I get close enough to auto attack them, they can auto attack me and their attacks do a lot more damage than mine do (and they can attack faster) so I end up losing more damage than I deal and it's not worth the risk for 20 gold.

Abraxus followerApr 19, 20181 votes

i see your point there :)

Abraxus followerApr 19, 20181 votes

see when i fill suport i go either blitz thresh or something troll :D so i mean i dont have the problem of dealing with spell thieves