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Proof that Riot has abandoned their design values on Counterplay

Nausicäa ··183 votes·25,141 views
Dev Blog: The Design Values of League of Legends

Counterplay Rich and exciting fights need to be two-sided, not one-sided. In order to dominate your opponent, you need to consistently outplay them, not just pull off that one perfect kill. League isn’t won at champion select and no phase of the game should be decided before a team steps up to fight. We strive to ensure a player's decisions, actions, and reactions matter.

While counterplay is a type of meaningful choice, it’s so important to League of Legends as a competitive multiplayer game that we consider it a pillar of our design values. A fight loses its excitement if the first punch wins – it's what you can do after that adds depth and complexity. We try to prevent hard counters and abilities with no room for reaction, as no game should be over without a real show of skill.

Their own words stand in contrast to current state of the game where damage is absurdly high. One shots are prevalent and there is no room to outplay, let alone react 'after the first punch'.

If you read Rioters comments their current interpretation of counterplay basically amounts to stay 2 screens away from everyone that can one shot you.

Seems to me like the first punch is winning most of the time...

139 Comments

Akumu44 votes

Deleting this because its derailing the discussion. You're arguing about Diana as a champion and what she may or may not have done in the clip but thats not the topic at hand.

I stand by my comments and believe its utterly absurd that a champion can point and click gap close you while; ignoring their own reset mechanics, being behind in gold, not landing their full combo, not even using summoner 14 and still instantly kill you through summoner 21 with no ability to react. Which is basically the situation that the Rioter said was working as intended.

I shouldnt have to build defensive items to avoid getting killed within a single second to champions with 1 item or 2 items, particularly when they dont even land a full combo, arent even 'assassins' AND i have barrier. Not to mention that even WITH defensive itemzation, particularly the meager ones available to Mages, you'll probably still get one shot anyway.

That is completely counter to Riots explanation of counterplay and is by definition 'losing to the first punch' which as they say themselves its not fun. The point of my post was to highlight that Riot appears to want damage to be absurdly high despite it completely undermining their own design values, specifically that of counterplay.

Rins Thigh Socks26 votes

{quoted}

Heres Riot Penguin telling me that a Diana without a single item completed, only item 1058 item 3113 item 3145 and who lost lane and only landed ONE R should be able to one shot me on Lux through barrier and Lux W shield otherwise the game 'isnt working properly'

He also tells me that AP items on Diana are 'useless in any teamfight' and I just need to 'adjust my positioning' Agiainst a champion with an 800 range gap closer when i was 4-0-1 and killed him in lane multiple times.

Incompetent people like this on the playtest team are whats wrong with this game.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/UTA3hAXP-riot-is-this-really-the-direction-you-want-to-take-your-game?show=nested&comment=0011

Also notice how i was complaining about damage 6 months ago and got 0 traction..... just look at the boards now.

I hit Master this season

Diana built a ton of damage, you had no defenses, and his full combo was up.

Also, he has 102 cs at 15 minutes so he isn't really BEHIND in gold, just not ahead.

That should definitely be a kill on you. Looks 100% fine.

NineTailedMystic13 votes

It shouldn't even be close with Barrier. Note in the old runes, he would have had +12 MR.

Rins Thigh Socks6 votes

{quoted}

It shouldn't even be close with Barrier. Note in the old runes, he would have had +12 MR.

  1. 12 MR isn't going to save you.

  2. That's even if he did have MR. Every ranged midlaner stopped using MR near the end of the previous rune system and ran CDR/lvl blues.

  3. Like the Rioter said, he invested a ton into upfront burst. If Diana gets a QRR + auto off on you, it's going to hurt. A lot. She's also proccing her W damage and her TLD/Electrocute. It doesn't matter what you buy or use unless you go full MR. I really hate the champion because of how simple and stupid she is at killing things. She's pretty much always been like this.

  4. Let's not forget most assassins have a 100-0 combo at level 9. Diana is level 10, meaning her Q is max base damage as well.

I've been in this matchup a million times before. Nothing saves you from Diana except for dodging the Q or getting your jungler before she hits 6.

Kynami14 votes

Extra MR from old style defensive masteries and rune page setups went amazingly far actually... Because shields and barrier by extension take resists into account for how much damage the shield actually soaks.

I remember on a few occasions seeing some burst monkey pop on the other side of the draft to counter me with a hit six and all-in and win mentality. What would I do? Take barrier, load up my Galio runes and play it defensively on my side of the river so I either got jungle assistance pre-six or they'd hit six and blow cooldowns overestimating their actual damage. Amazing feeling when you have an Annie pop everything and you come out of it via barrier and W toss with 75% health remaining and the Annie is now 20% health and zero lane priority until that flash is back up.

The problem is that the game has been set up so that all purchased bulk is always behind purchased damage. There really isn't some pre-game bricking you can stuff in anymore to tilt that balance to deny an all-in or assassin type their early cheese that you outright expect.

Akumu4 votes

[deleted]

Crescent Dusk2 votes

Honestly I'd rather they remove electrocute and conqueror and just keep utility keystones, and balance champion numbers accordingly.

I was playing Talon and jumped a Xayah. I IW'd, she got hit by the first shuriken which isn't much damage but she ulted the second part, I Q'd in to her, she kited back but I used tiamat active and even without proccing my mark passive those 3 hits (the Q was a leap so it wasn't even empowered) electrocute procced and she just died whereas she would have successfully kited away.

I'd rather assassins have more base itemization giving them increased durability and mobility than this current scenario where you either 3 shot things in 2 seconds or die in the same time yourself.

Madsin2535 votes

Wow that is a depressing read.

Time to just quit league I guess. Riot is ignoring the situation because in their mind there isn't one.

Illabethe11 votes

The problem with her argument is that she let Diana hit a Q > Ult. Diana never just R's in. It puts it on cooldown. In reality, the Diana most likely hit a Q, and then R'd in and then quickly R'd again, because as long as moonlight is on, she can spam R. And you don't notice the animation of subsequent R's, because she's already at the position she originally landed at.

She also took a chance getting hit. You dodge Diana or you die. Simple. And she's not that hard to dodge.

Akumu4 votes

[deleted]

Wimbledofy3 votes

hard to tell when the video isn't even available

Sire Hippington2 votes

Diana can Reset R once per Q, so she can't "spam" it, and it move her always to the oppsite side of her target, so you can easily notice the recast.

Though for a 100-0 burst with no reset, she probably had the passive proc ready befor dashing in or she was quite far ahead

VoraciousX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ai6GYA0b,comment-id=0001000100000002,timestamp=2018-07-09T13:10:22.194+0000)

Diana can Reset R once per Q, so she can't "spam" it, and it move her always to the oppsite side of her target, so you can easily notice the recast.

Though for a 100-0 burst with no reset, she probably had the passive proc ready befor dashing in or she was quite far ahead

Ummm... you're mistaking Akali's ultimate with Diana's. Yes, as long as moonlight is on the target she can use her R with no cooldown. The only way to get moonlight on a target is with her q so this is right. However Diana's ultimate moves you straight to the front of the target every time, meaning you can use it twice in succession with it occasionally being hard to tell the difference. I agree though she probably did have her passive up when she R'd in as that would deal quite a bit of damage especially with revolver. Another thing to note is that Lux should be able to Q Diana mid ult(I can't remember if this is 100% the case but I'm almost sure it is). There's definitely counterplay in that matchup, but one thing I'll agree on is that Riot has constantly failed trying to make Diana a bruiser. The only way they will possibly succeed at that is likely moving her shield scaling to health instead of AP, which might see her building Abyssal Mask. They could also make it MR to incentivize her to build Wit's End instead, but until they can incentivize her more to build tankier with attack speed they're not really gonna succeed in making her a bruiser. AP champions don't have enough AP defensive options for that kind of Diana to exist. Until they get better options, she will always be an assassin(and probably the best AP assassin you can ever hope for imo)

Sire Hippington7 votes

Sry, but you have no idea of either akali or diana it seems. Akali has up to 3 charges and gets a free charge on takedowns, it has nothing to do with her Q or anything.

And for Diana, yes, her ult resets when hitting a target with moonlight, BUT IT ALSO REMOVES MOONLIGHT FROM ALL TARGETS, so every Q can only give 1 reset to her ult.

VoraciousX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ai6GYA0b,comment-id=000100010000000200000000,timestamp=2018-07-09T20:14:55.081+0000)

Sry, but you have no idea of either akali or diana it seems. Akali has up to 3 charges and gets a free charge on takedowns, it has nothing to do with her Q or anything.

And for Diana, yes, her ult resets when hitting a target with moonlight, BUT IT ALSO REMOVES MOONLIGHT FROM ALL TARGETS, so every Q can only give 1 reset to her ult.

I don't think you read the entire thing of what I said, and completely assumed random things. I was saying that Diana's ult brings you to the FRONT of the target, not the back. Akali's ultimate is what brings you to the other side of the champion. I never said Akali needed to land her Q to ult, I also never said that Diana could use her ultimate infinitely, and even said myself that Diana's Q is the only thing that gives moonlight. Yeah I know it removes moonlight when she uses her ultimate, and maybe that gave you some odd impression of what I was saying, despite me saying you were right about that point. But to be clear, I was saying that you were mistaking Diana's ultimate with Akali's because Diana's ultimate brings you directly to the target, and Akali's ultimate is what brings you to the other side. So again, you're wrong about that point. Downvotes won't change the fact that Diana's ultimate brings you directly to your target.

Sire Hippington2 votes

I also never said that Diana could use her ultimate infinitely,

Sorry for the missunderstanding, 'Illabethe' who i respondet to originaly said "because as long as moonlight is on, she can spam R", then you said "Yes, as long as moonlight is on the target she can use her R with no cooldown." with no notion of her ult removeing moonlight, so i assumed you also thought diana could spam R on a target after landing Q

Diana's ultimate brings you directly to the target

I was partially wrong as it's true that a high ranged ult moves her infront of the target. However, once Diana is in AA range, her ult causes her to dash through the target, ending on the oppsit side, which is the important part when it comes to kowing whever she double cast it or not, as useing it twice will cuase her to end in a different spot than useing it once.

Leto GT7 votes

May just wanna check the first seconds of that vids.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVi2RR32OUs

Eye Of Terror5 votes

{quoted}

Heres Riot Penguin telling me that a Diana without a single item completed, only item 1058 item 3113 item 3145 and who lost lane and only landed ONE R should be able to one shot me on Lux through barrier and Lux W shield otherwise the game 'isnt working properly'

He also tells me that AP items on Diana are 'useless in any teamfight' and I just need to 'adjust my positioning' Agiainst a champion with an 800 range gap closer when i was 4-0-1 and killed him in lane multiple times.

Incompetent people like this on the playtest team are whats wrong with this game.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/UTA3hAXP-riot-is-this-really-the-direction-you-want-to-take-your-game?show=nested&comment=0011

Also notice how i was complaining about damage 6 months ago and got 0 traction..... just look at the boards now.

Lol, the amount of upvotes on that idiot working on balance team.

Conclusion: dumb game, dumb balance team, dumb players. I should quit for good too.

Saianna6 votes

and the rioter dude only got upvoted lol

Shows that common players would upvote any rioter, no matter what he says.

Rins Thigh Socks11 votes

{quoted}

and the rioter dude only got upvoted lol

Shows that common players would upvote any rioter, no matter what he says.

? You're the common player.

You're the average joe who shows up on Gameplay when you're pissed about how Riot has balanced the game in every meta you don't like.

I've seen Rioters get downvoted. I've seen Ghostcrawler get -200 something because people don't like him.

But don't assume for one second you're any smarter or cleverer or well versed than anyone else who posts here unless you've got the rank or position as a Riot analyst to back it up.

Lakega2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Lover Rock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ai6GYA0b,comment-id=000100050000,timestamp=2018-07-09T05:11:28.612+0000)

? You're the common player.

You're the average joe who shows up on Gameplay when you're pissed about how Riot has balanced the game in every meta you don't like.

I've seen Rioters get downvoted. I've seen Ghostcrawler get -200 something because people don't like him.

But don't assume for one second you're any smarter or cleverer or well versed than anyone else who posts here unless you've got the rank or position as a Riot analyst to back it up.

You can't say Riot Analysts will say anything intelligent. They'll say whatever the fuck they are paid to say, and nothing more. they wont trash riot, and point out endless walls of problems. That will get them fired.

IcyPepper5 votes

Dude, if you facetank Vi's entire combo without armor you're going to take damage. I read the Rioter's response, you are taking their comments out of context and deliberately leaving information out to mislead us. I don't agree with the current state of the game, but this isn't the way to do this.

He also tells me that AP items on Diana are 'useless in any teamfight' and I just need to 'adjust my positioning' Agiainst a champion with an 800 range gap closer when i was 4-0-1 and killed him in lane multiple times.

QRR isn't "one-shot" and you had no MR

Like, the rioter even said

When you're playing squishy artillery mages, you are vulnerable to assassin burst patterns and need to adjust your positioning accordingly :).

Not a problem with that statement... if you want to complain about Diana's range, then that's another issue entirely.

I think upfront burst can be problematic in our game currently (Dark Harvest in tandem with Duskblade feels ridiculous to play against), but don't think either example here is sufficient to prove your argument.

Here even the Rioter is saying that he thinks there's a problem but your examples weren't really all that good.

SennaFirstPick4 votes

tbh you complain about getting oneshotted as zoe, but you say no words on the fact that zoe is the oneshot queen.

the rioter was right. in the current state of the game , it was obvious that you were gonna die, you should've played accordingly

NA Darklarik33 votes

Good lord thank you i read this a long time ago and it infuriates me that i couldent find it to remark Riot about how they have just sold their soul and game to the devil of "Lets make games faster in pro play" and ruined the whole game. Gonna bookmark this.

Clear show of difference between Meddler and Morello. Things where fun when Morello was in charge. Meddler just has steadily set the game on fire. Really hate the guy with all my soul.

Darkone70013 votes

Hate is a strong word, I will say I think he needs to resign as he does not have the best vision for the game, he's effectively ruined my will to play the game, I don't hate him he is a human and we all have flaws. He just does not relies the impact he is having on the health of the game. I think in his mind he is making the game better because of pro play and the income generated but when he "ruined" WoW it was because of similar reasons as to why LoL is starting to tank, world of warcrafts class system and balance has gotten WAY better since he left, there is no doubt in my mind this man needs to go. Just don't hate him ;P

YourAreMyQueen30 votes

That's what happens when you hire Ghostcrawler

Aptest25 votes

"assassin that** waits for the perfect engage** "

Rayet24 votes

That adc is full hp and surrounded by 4 other players? A free kill.

Daddy Ants6 votes

{quoted}

"assassin that** waits for the perfect engage** "

Perfect engage being "Which target can i mongoloid my cooldowns on and kill before they can react"

Teridax6821 votes

It's impressive how so much of what is said in that post seems to be exactly what players find to be missing in the current game. There have been a ton of complaints about fights being so short-lived that the first move often tends to dictate the outcome, as well as how games often turn out to be one-sided when a team gets a lead the other can no longer fight against. Additionally, the current state of champion balance, and the vast differences in power across the roster, means that some games really do feel won or lost at champion select, because of that one champion that's either too heavy to carry, or so good that it becomes difficult for them to lose in the hands of a decent player. As such, it feels like Riot could take a page from Riot four years ago, since at this point it's pretty clear there's been a change in design and balancing philosophy, one that has not turned out so successful.

DNFVixen16 votes

Thanks to you I am gonna have people share this everywhere. Maybe some people will actually get through to the blind Riot.

Darox16 votes

2 screens away isn't enough, Zoe can still 1 shot you from that far.

MadSeer14 votes

I'm having fun with League, but it is frustrating that I came back in this particular state of the game. On one hand I really love the new rune system, I believe the concept is much better than the old masteries and runes for reasons that I won't delve into here. However this new system turns some champions into "must bans" because, even if they lose lane and fall behind, the minute they get one or two items that synergize perfectly with their kit and keystone, they steamroll over everyone.

Counterplay was a much more important thing and rune customization allowed for more options when facing a traditional lane counter. Now if a champ's kit naturally counters another's, he can just yolo through the minion wave and force the other player out of lane. It was still a thing before, but it took more consideration than running Conqueror on Irelia and going in when your passive was stacked.

I feel like the Keystones shouldn't explicitly increase damage. The early game burst you can get through electrocute + ignite is just dumb so is being able to dish out a bunch of true damage because you hit a minion twice in 4 seconds. Keystones should be utility based like the rest of the runes, but stronger and with more variety to synergise with a wider selection of champions and playstyles.

Utility abilities encourage creativity and it'd be a good start to scale back the snowballing and reduce that crazy damage. I miss the days where Trinity Force was the only true source of tons of damage.

muramasamune8 votes

I've said this before, but I think they should make conquerer only proc on champions and make it like 2-2.5 seconds instead of 4. Having it work on minions makes for a stupid laning phase. And I shouldnt be asking for a nerf because I play Darius, I can abuse it so bad by leaving my bleed on at least one minion.

Mordepool12 votes

I've been calling them on it for several years

Ok sure but why9 votes

This kinda does make one think

People hate Yasuo because "His only weakness is the user not being good at him," which essentially means his weakness is getting outplayed

So what if every champion was as strong as Yasuo, so everyone would always have enough utility to outplay each other? People hate him because he has the utility others lack, and if everyone was overloaded, no one would be

Madsin259 votes

Exactly.

They are taking the bitches way out of balancing a game. Make everyone one shot everyone.

TheSingularity11 votes

We don't out play yasuo, yasuo out plays himself. The kill is a happy side effect

IceAYon7 votes

They don't know how to fix it. They know about the early snowball.

koshkyra10 votes

They dont DO know how to fix it, and just refuse to

Ftfy

GigglesO9 votes

You mean unnerf tank items?

Give us back 70 armor 500 hp Randuins, give us back force of nature, give us back 1500 hp warmogs. Give us back old armor pen calculations where you take off flat pen, then percentage, while we are at it reduce the amount of armor pen in general.

Yea there are lots of things they could do to fix it... they could even remove most of the cdr on items so that there is more time to punish the enemy if they blow their load and don't kill you.

Shazzbot697 votes

League Counterplay

i laugh

Frontline Fury7 votes

They are fully aware of how bad balance is. They simply have absolutely no idea what to do about it.

SweedishGunner5 votes

When shit like Yi and Mundo are meta you know something's wrong, these archaic designs need to be underpowered until they're reworked.

3TWarrior2 votes

not underpowered but at least on par. it's their lack of utility that means their downfall and they require a lot more attention to the game at hand and what you can or can not do than many of the more overloaded kits

FixHealsRemoveGW4 votes

They are talking about team vs team, not 1 vs 1. If anything this proves that players like you don't fully understand counterplay.

Hazy Shade12 votes

{quoted}

They are talking about team vs team, not 1 vs 1. If anything this proves that players like you don't fully understand counterplay.

"... no phase of the game should be decided before a team steps up to fight."

If anything, this proves that people like you struggle with reading comprehension.

rtbf2256182413 votes

This blog was posted when i joined the game. No wonder the game was in a much better state durings seasons 4 - 5.

Leto GT3 votes

Remember when an assassin had to wait for ppl to engage and carefully check the cc used before going in. Now you can just yolo because you'll kill someone before they can even realise you're on them.

It could happen back then but they had to be fed af. It feels to me that they do not need to reach that fed state to do that currently. They just need to be okay-ish but can also afford to to be slightly behind.

The aspect of feast or famine has been gutted which is terrible in regard to assassin design in lol.

In any case, I find playing assassins pretty boring in that regard because the feeling of tactical achievement has been gutted somehow.

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