Is it safe to say now that the ADC rework was a complete and utter failure?

Nausicäa ·Oct 4, 2018·225 votes·26,239 views

Just like pretty much every other 'class rework' Riot has done over the last couple of years?

Goal to increase diversity in bot occurred initially but has now reverted back to ADCS 100% of the time. Failure.
Failed to make all ADCs viable, just switched out what the 'op' ADCs are. ( not equally strong, but have some niche where they can get picked and have success)
Goal to reduce early power spike by ADC's is a failure due to Stormrazor
Goal to reduce ADC damage to squishes is a massive failure. ADC's like Jhin, Kai'sa and MF still 2-3 shotting squishy champions.
Goal to increase cost of ADCs items occurred initially and then Riot decided to basically reduce them back to their previous super low values as a buff.
Introduced a bunch of broken items that are abused by non ADCs

174 Comments

WøOxerOct 4, 201877 votes

It is a fail, results shown it.

BIFFOct 5, 20186 votes

All of season 8 was a fail.

saltranOct 4, 201853 votes

Goal to increase diversity in bot occurred initially but has now reverted back to ADCS 100% of the time. Failure.

Vel'Koz has already been played on the Worlds Play In with a win, and Heimerding has been banned 9 times for his botlane strenght considering that on pro play he's only viable bot (thank you mr G2 Hjarnan) Of course that non adc botlanes are less popular now, you needed some adcs at 45% winrate and being non viable in any lane to have champs that already had a lane be good on bot aswell.

Failed to make all ADCs viable, just switched out what the 'op' ADCs are.

Was that even one of their objectives? Because it made no sense if they also wanted non adc botlanes. But yeah, they didn't made this point.

Goal to reduce early power spike by ADC's is a failure due to Stormrazor

With the base stats nerfs every adc has a worse lane fase on top of the FleetF nerf, and StormR gives them a earlier power spike by the cost of being a obsolete item later that literally any adc outside Jhin sells.

Goal to reduce ADC damage to squishes is a massive failure. ADC's like Jhin, Kai'sa and MF still 2-3 shotting squishy champions.

Jhin and MF does this for their kits, DarkHarvest MF with lethality isn't caused by the adc's changes, and Jhin always had his dmg burst for how his aa are (but now with the 600ms that is full bs, but that's movement speed, not more burst dmg and they are already nerfing it). And Kai'Sa sure is a problem.

Goal to increase cost of ADCs items occurred initially and then Riot decided to basically reduce them back to their previous super low values as a buff.

Because they changed their goal, they realized that making a wholes class ultra lategame with trash early-mid was a bad idea so they reduced the cost but also nerfing the lategame power. And dont forget that Zeal items are still worse than on pre 8.11 and that Inifinity Edge now gives 10% true dmg convert which makes this IE version the worst version we have seen and the one that gives less dmg, compared to the old +50% crit dmg or the 15% true dmg convert.

Introduced a bunch of broken items that are abused by non ADCs

ER rework was a total failure that is niche on his best user that is Lucian, they failed miserably right there. And StormR being abused by assasins is like adcs abusing lethality, it just needs some tweaks.

AirKingNeoOct 4, 201810 votes

assassins aren't buying Stormrazor.

saltranOct 4, 20188 votes

Well, I didn't wanted to go in in that particular topic but it's true that the non adc that uses the most StormR is Rengar and has a 21.7% buyrate, being his third most bought item.

It's also worth to mention that they've made it worse for non crit users with some patches but yeah, I shouldn't say that overall assasins abuse StormR.

AirKingNeoOct 4, 20182 votes

I was implying relevant assassins, but then again that's Kha'zix, Talon, and Zed.

ZackTheWaffleManOct 4, 20181 votes

kass is a relevant assassin lol

BârdOct 4, 20188 votes

And if Kassadin buys Stormrazor he's high.

ZackTheWaffleManOct 4, 20183 votes

item 3095 item 3042 item 3040 item 3100 item 3094

BârdOct 4, 20189 votes

Sounds about as strong as Rageblade Elise.

saltranOct 4, 20183 votes

Rageblade Elise is free elo on Iron IV

SEKAIOct 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Vel'Koz has already been played on the Worlds Play In with a win

In that match where KBM vs DFM, that was a clown fiesta with Vayne and Soraka on the DFM bot lane, and both teams played like they'd walked straight out of Bronze?

Ofc Vel'Koz worked, just like it could work in any Bronze match. It doesn't simply mean Vel'Koz is suddenly "played on the Worlds" or somehow implying that it's "Worlds-approved".

That match literally doesn't mean anything, and you'd be extremely and intellectually dishonest to suggest that it does.

MizayaOct 5, 20182 votes

DFM hasn't looked that bad at all so far though, and I'd say the level of play here is above anything you'll find at the highest ranks of NA solo queue, or OCE for that matter. So yeah, this is pretty relevant imo.

Of course, I doubt Velkoz would work well in challenger solo queue because I doubt people would be willing to play around it. ADCs are the best for solo queue precisely for that reason (though in KR there has been a couple counterexamples against that). In competitive however we've seen Yasuo bot win a game against a top 2 team in the world not too long ago, as an example.

FurriesAreHotOct 4, 201828 votes

Critical Strike Chance as a mechanic ruin ADC.

Necro Warrior87Oct 4, 20187 votes

{quoted}

Critical Strike Chance as a mechanic ruin ADC.

So the thing that's been in the game sense the beginning ruins the class that was designed around them, error 404 logic not found

FurriesAreHotOct 4, 201820 votes

Because its been in the game since the beginning makes it healthy...

Remember when Dodge was a mechanic?

The laning phase and fights in general shouldn't be determined by something as blatantly random as crit chance. especially in the laning phase.

ThilmerOct 5, 20186 votes

{quoted}

Critical Strike Chance as a mechanic ruin ADC.

This.

How is this massive RGN allowed to exists in a competitive game? Things like Tryndamere killing people at random in early because he does two critical strikes on a row…

OtterlyLostOct 4, 201814 votes

8.11 was a massive stinky failure, yes. It was lazy, sloppy, and poorly handled. It gutted a decent chunk of the ADC class. It introduced an extremely problematic item that, let's be real here, was ineptly designed for ADCs and better suits Assassins. It ruined ADC build paths and made them feel more samey than ever before; the only correct choice every game is to build storm razor and they removed the crit version of ER, essentially making it useless for caster adcs who still wanted to build crit(Xayah primarily but also kind of murdered Crit MF, Crit Varus, Sivir, Crit Lucian, and removed CDR that many people wanted on Ashe). And early game stat nerfs took a class that is already lacking in early game agency and expounded that issue 10 fold. ADCs are more reliant on their supports than ever though the laning phase which sucks because they also went and systematically nerfed all of the enchanters that would have alleviated this issue slightly.

8.11 was garbage and someone at Riot hopefully had their head on a pike for it.

DragonSheaOct 4, 20184 votes

{quoted}

8.11 was a massive stinky failure, yes. It was lazy, sloppy, and poorly handled. It gutted a decent chunk of the ADC class. It introduced an extremely problematic item that, let's be real here, was ineptly designed for ADCs and better suits Assassins. It ruined ADC build paths and made them feel more samey than ever before; the only correct choice every game is to build storm razor and they removed the crit version of ER, essentially making it useless for caster adcs who still wanted to build crit(Xayah primarily but also kind of murdered Crit MF, Crit Varus, Sivir, Crit Lucian, and removed CDR that many people wanted on Ashe). And early game stat nerfs took a class that is already lacking in early game agency and expounded that issue 10 fold. ADCs are more reliant on their supports than ever though the laning phase which sucks because they also went and systematically nerfed all of the enchanters that would have alleviated this issue slightly.

8.11 was garbage and someone at Riot hopefully had their head on a for it.

FTFY.

On a serious note, When classes other than ADC's came to the bot lane it was refreshing to see, especially since they sometimes go top and try and chess the lane. Riot once again proved to have become slaves to the very meta that old players made.

OtterlyLostOct 4, 20187 votes

It was refreshing only for the people who didn't play bot lane. As someone who did play botlane, it was the worst thing ever and it was the closest I've ever come to quitting a game. Its refreshing to see because no one actually did it and this is supported by the fact that, for weeks after 8.11, bot lane was the least mained role globally. Even support was beating it out by a solid 4% or so.

Spank the FoxOct 4, 201812 votes

I mean, ADCs don’t work in other lanes due to their nature so unless you change the fundementals of the game, they’re not going anywhere.

The rework was successful in the sense IE + Zeal upgrade no longer blows up people, but a failure everywhere else. Which is fine. ADCs are never healthy in a solo lane.

ThefrostyvikingOct 4, 20183 votes

Zeal and IE never really blew people up, even if you scored a lucky 2 crits in a row deal.

But IE+static shiv sure did, at least when you scored a crit easily demolishing a squishy´s healtbar.

And while stormrazor+rapidfire doesnt do that as well it does its poke deal worlds more reliably and whoever gets that combo first basically dominates lane with little contest.

Kanzaki RankoOct 4, 20188 votes

ADC's are garbage though lol, aside from kaisa

saltranOct 4, 201819 votes

OtterlyLostOct 4, 20185 votes

No what? Not most of the marksmen roster has a sub 50% winrate. Even kaisa, who is supposedly broken. Statistics show that most ADCs are, in fact, garbage.

saltranOct 4, 20189 votes

Yeah I'm looking at my dear redhead bounty huntress with Dark Harvest + lethality and weak is the last thing that comes to my mind.

For not talking about other adcs that are aswell great on soloQ like Jhin aka The Fast, Lucian, or even if less popular that fucking rat I despise. And Kai'Sa with 50% winrate is still strong considering her pickrate.

Are adcs now weaker than pre 8.11? Sure, but I like it as an adc main because I want them to not be as strong as they were but neither as weak as they were when abominations like Heimerdinger-Fiddlesticks were meta on botlane.

OtterlyLostOct 4, 201811 votes

Oh good cherry picking, sir. Picking the strongest ADC in the game and using that as an example of all ADCs are fine. Good on you. Now how is Tristana, Varus, Xayah, Kog, Ashe, Sivir, Cait, and the rest doing?

Yes clearly, though, because MF is doing well it means most ADCs arent garbage.

saltranOct 4, 20182 votes

If rest of the adcs were garbage you would see more non adc botlanes as it happened on 8.11 and 8.12 mostly. It doesn't happen anymore usually and I'm glad of it.

I already said that adcs are overall weaker than pre 8.11 and I think that that's a good thing because adcs were too strong back then, you have to understand that adc is the most team reliant class, if you make it that adcs are great on soloQ aka uncoordinated play they will be bonkers on coordinated play.

I said it more clear here when I was angry: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/uVhz3bxt-who-else-hates-infinity-edge?comment=00000000000000000000

OtterlyLostOct 4, 20186 votes

Oh so you advocate balancing for professional play when it benefits you. The general consensus has always been that the game should be balanced around the average player and not Faker and his lot. Especially when champs like Sejuani, Ryze, Azir, Galio, and Shen are continually and systematically nerfed over and over and over again to the point that they're a joke in soloqueue.

ADCs are team reliant as hell and that's pretty expansive and decent counter play to the class as a whole. They do not also need to be garbage to play as and be trash tier to keep the balanced for soloqueue. Especially since soloqueue is what every average Joe is going to be playing.

As for the lack of other options outside of ADCs being bot lane, they are there. Swain and Yasuo are both played bot with 52% winrates and this is soloqueue. People also play heimer bot in both solo and professional play and you even mentioned that in pro play that they took velkoz bot and won off that. So your point that if they were garbage, other things would be showing bot as well is moot. Other things are showing up bot. And other things are winning and winning hard bot.

Necro Warrior87Oct 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Oh so you advocate balancing for professional play when it benefits you. The general consensus has always been that the game should be balanced around the average player and not Faker and his lot. Especially when champs like Sejuani, Ryze, Azir, Galio, and Shen are continually and systematically nerfed over and over and over again to the point that they're a joke in soloqueue.

ADCs are team reliant as hell and that's pretty expansive and decent counter play to the class as a whole. They do not also need to be garbage to play as and be trash tier to keep the balanced for soloqueue. Especially since soloqueue is what every average Joe is going to be playing.

As for the lack of other options outside of ADCs being bot lane, they are there. Swain and Yasuo are both played bot with 52% winrates and this is soloqueue. People also play heimer bot in both solo and professional play and you even mentioned that in pro play that they took velkoz bot and won off that. So your point that if they were garbage, other things would be showing bot as well is moot. Other things are showing up bot. And other things are winning and winning hard bot.

I would advocate for professional balancing when it helps us, because that means it's good balancing that helps us all.

OtterlyLostOct 4, 20183 votes

Except this isnt helpful. Most balance changes for pro play are not helpful to soloqueue

saltranOct 4, 20186 votes

It doesn't happen anymore usually and I'm glad of it.

Now look at the pickrates of the non adc botlaners, I dont say that they are not viable, I say that they are not popular because now only ppl that knows and wants to play it will play a non adc botlane unlike when adcs were actually garbage and everyone could pick a double mage botlane and smash botlane with no brain or effort.

The general consensus has always been that the game should be balanced around the average player and not Faker

I mean, balancing around Faker would be balancing around soloQ because he has a nice holydays watching Worlds from his home and not playing there (sry, had to make this pun, dont take this one seriously)

BestPudgeNAOct 5, 20182 votes

{quoted}

No what? Not most of the marksmen roster has a sub 50% winrate. Even kaisa, who is supposedly broken. Statistics show that most ADCs are, in fact, garbage.

How can ADCs have "bad" win rates when only ADCs get played bot lane. You realize that 99% of the time when an ADC loses he loses too another ADC right?

OtterlyLostOct 5, 20182 votes

No he loses to an entire team. Or are there not 4 other players on a team?

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2880278133/228066420?tab=overview

Did this 19/6 Draven lose to me, the 4/4/10 Tristana or did he lose to my team which had a fed Ahri and a fed Irelia?

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2871536532/228066420?tab=overview

Or this game. Did I, a 9/6/10 Tristana, lose to the 3/9 Jhin or did I lose to the Jhin's team with the fed Syndra and the fed Hecarim?

This happens all the time. Winrate doesn't exist just in the vacuum of laning phase people. There is a support botlane as well and there are three other players elsewhere on the map. An ADC can have bad winrates just facing other ADCs in lane by virtue of this is a team game and there are two people bot.

Just because the bot lane comprises of primarily marksmen and supports does not suddenly, by virtue of that, make ADC winrates unimportant.

Edit: Another one: https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2866604437/228066420?tab=overview

Did I lose to the Draven who was 6/10 or the the fed jungle Graves who was 21/3?

Don't want to look at a silver ADC mains match history because she's a scrub? Fine. Let's look at a pro level player.

https://www.probuilds.net/guide/show/BR/1483824073/1724409 16/8 Lucian still lost the game and not because his laning opponent, a 8/7 Tristana, magically got fed but because there was a fed Aatrox. https://www.probuilds.net/guide/show/BR/1483777296/1724409 8/4 Kai'sa did not lose her entire match in laning phase; instead it was likely lost in teamfights against the collosally fed 13/3 Irelia and 12/2 Renekton. https://www.probuilds.net/guide/show/EUW/3787467791/44256841 5/1 Lucian also clearly didn't lose his game in laning phase if the 10/2 Syndra and the 13/5 Nidalee are anything to go off of.

All of these half decent KDAs in lost games; its almost as though bot lane isn't a vacuum and laning phase isn't the only factor that matters in a game for an ADC.

BestPudgeNAOct 5, 20182 votes

{quoted}

No he loses to an entire team. Or are there not 4 other players on a team?

... If one ADC is each team ever game the total combined WR for ADC will be 50%.

Did this 19/6 Draven lose to me, the 4/4/10 Tristana or did he lose to my team which had a fed Ahri and a fed Irelia?

You won and draven lost so the ADC win rate for this game was 50% since one ADC lost and one ADC won

Or this game. Did I, a 9/6/10 Tristana, lose to the 3/9 Jhin or did I lose to the Jhin's team with the fed Syndra and the fed Hecarim?

You lost and the Jhin won. Which makes the ADC win rate for that game 50%

See the pattern if bot is ADC vs ADC every game the total combined WR for ADCs is always going to be 50%

So when you say most ADC have low win rates, the only way this is possible is if the ADCs that have higher win rates are being picked more and they're the one lowering the win rates of the other ADC.

OtterlyLostOct 5, 20184 votes

In a vacuum your logic works just fine. If League was a 1v1 all the time, sure, ADCs vs ADCs would be the only deciding factor in a particular ADC's winrate. But that's not league. .-. League is 5v5 and sometimes the thing lowering an ADC's winrate isn't just another ADC. I literally showed you proof of games where its clearly not another ADC causing the stronger ADC to lose and you continue on this same dumb, variable ignoring rhetoric of,"Herp-a-derp, there are two ADCs so they must control each other's winrate; nop i dont caer that theres a sup and a jung and mid and a top that also can affect this!"

There are variables outside of,"There are two ADCs, they are the only contributing factor to each other's winrates." What supports are meta? How are tanks? How over tuned are junglers? What items are good right now? What's the meta like?

None of this in any way, shape, or form is just black and white ADCs have 50% winrates because its only ADC vs ADC. And you're an idiot if you honestly believe that.

And again, I'm done arguing with you because you can't see the forest for the fucking trees and don't know how to make a logical argument.

AggressiveWolfOct 4, 201811 votes

Draven Kaisa Lucian Jhin Jinx MissFortune Twitch Vayne

I don't really need an argument here. These images probably gave most people PTSD of being two shot at some point

Leto GTOct 4, 20185 votes

I love playing with a good Jinx when I supp. She's so underated atm.

Sex With AnnieOct 5, 20186 votes

"ADCs like Jhin, MF, and Kai'sa still 2-3 shotting squishy champions" as opposed to...what? Theyre squishy champions, they die fast, what kind of statement even is this? Is Jhin supposed to have to RELOAD before he can kill a champ like evelynn?

Nausicäa Oct 5, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cobalt Entity,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1bXj9mbs,comment-id=0026,timestamp=2018-10-05T04:45:00.306+0000)

"ADCs like Jhin, MF, and Kai'sa still 2-3 shotting squishy champions" as opposed to...what? Theyre squishy champions, they die fast, what kind of statement even is this? Is Jhin supposed to have to RELOAD before he can kill a champ like evelynn?

Its the fact that Riot explicitly stated they wanted to reduce the burst damage that ADC's do to squishy champions as part of the ADC rework.

Maybe get informed and have some basic knowledge before you comment, thanks.

Curious KatOct 5, 20184 votes

This entire season has been a utter complete failure. Ever since the mastery/rune reforged bullshit this game has just been a fucking joke.

Sad ChihuahuaOct 5, 20184 votes

Both ADC reworks and itemization changes were failures. Third time's a charm, I hope.

Sexy Jack RabbitOct 5, 20184 votes

I gotta say that even those who are SURVIVING the current meta like Caitlyn , it doesn't mean they feel fun to play.

Like besides the top 4 right now, the Rework just served to make all ADC's really monotonous.

BALDG1VEN BOOMEROct 4, 20182 votes

Aside from Twitch, MF, Draven and Jhin no other ADC aid even above a 50% win rate, so why are you crying?

Critmaster GarenOct 4, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Aside from Twitch, MF, Draven and Jhin no other ADC aid even above a 50% win rate, so why are you crying?

they arent above 50% winrate because they get beaten by lucian, vayne, mf and jhin?

how does that equate to them being weak? just weaker than other adc.

http://www.op.gg/champion/statistics

by the way, i count a lot more above 50% winrate.

BALDG1VEN BOOMEROct 4, 20182 votes

Out of the 17 champions in their role only 5 are in a reasonable spot because literally everything has been nerfed countless times for Marksman, they have nothing good for them anymore.

The ones who are above 50% are the ones abusing pen/bc or Conquer which are non-binary things that aren’t meant for Marksman. Aside from Twitch and Jhin which leaves only two real stand outs.

Yet people are baby crying for more nerfs when regular crit scaling Marksman are literal trash tier.

GlaricionOct 5, 20181 votes

Introducing meaningful turn rates to certain ranged champions may be the answer. Allowing for more abilities to harm structures under the right conditions may also help.

You cannot revamp many ADCs to be viable solo early game when their siege power and 1vs2+ potential is so high once they get items.

Turn rates dampens their kiting potentials that allows them to solo multiple champions at once later on, thus allowing for better early game power and for more lane diversity.

lil kodaOct 5, 20184 votes

do you mean turn rates as in that shit dota has like when you click it feels like ur lagging but its ur hero turning around to move, yea no fuck that shit LMAO thats why half the people prefer league over dota, dota is slower while league is faster.

GlaricionOct 5, 20181 votes

If you want to feel like the game is EXTREMELY responsive, you should check out HoN. Both League and DotA feel laggy and unresponsive compared to it, too bad the game's all but dead.

Also, are you sure it's the turn rate you hate in DotA? Ever since Reborn there's been complaints everywhere that champions seem to take at least an extra .2s to do anything. It makes champions like Puck unplayable.

lil kodaOct 5, 20183 votes

i did get some enjoyment out of dota, i hated the turnrate, but yes i know what you're talking about with the lag, inputs were being ridden nearly fast enough or w/e they fucked shit up lmao