@meddler "No current plans, he's not crowding out other jungle picks now"

CatSith·Apr 6, 2015·5 votes·724 views

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So back when and were top junglers, there were plans to nerf both of them. They put off nerfing lee sin saying its coming and we will see what happens, but for elise she immediately and constantly received nerfs throughout the season.

So what you are saying now with "No current plans, he's not crowding out other jungle picks now." If elise wasn't nerfed and stayed the same til recent game play changes she would be in the same position as lee sin right now.

why did lee sin get a free pass and Elise didn't?

17 Comments

ModAcademy KaynApr 6, 20155 votes

Considering the increased presence in Tank Junglers, compared to before they were relevant in the new jungle, Lee Sin was powerful because we mostly had fighters in the jungle. Now with the rise of tanks, we have a great downfall of fighters (Yes they are still in the jungle not gone) for a more team fight oriented team comps.

I think that's a bigger nerf to a duelist like Lee Sin than we would expect.

CatSithApr 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Considering the increased presence in Tank Junglers, compared to before they were relevant in the new jungle, Lee Sin was powerful because we mostly had fighters in the jungle. Now with the rise of tanks, we have a great downfall of fighters (Yes they are still in the jungle not gone) for a more team fight oriented team comps.

I think that's a bigger nerf to a duelist like Lee Sin than we would expect.

I understand that lee sin has a lot of good competitors in the jungle now and he doesn't need a nerf anymore. But my point was that Elise was as strong as lee sin last season but she was nerfed constantly and he was barely touched. Overall I am saying if they didn't touch her last season, she would be in the same position as lee sin right now.

Sona PingApr 6, 20152 votes

It's not because: The Cinderhulk did help move the power spikes of the tank junglers earlier into the game by assisting with their terrible clearing and getting them levels and items faster. The Cinderhulk did not help with the early game of the jungle where tanks have the majority of their trouble. The Cinderhulk did not nerf the early game strength of champions who excel at the jungle like Lee Sin The Cinderhulk did not nerf the early aggression and snowballing that has been deemed such a problem by Riot themselves.

To say things are "fixed" with Lee Sin, while never actually addressing him, is to again make the same mistake that Riot made when they created the Season 5 jungle.

CatSithApr 6, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qlOfPPW8,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2015-04-06T09:53:18.230+0000)

It's not because: The Cinderhulk did help move the power spikes of the tank junglers earlier into the game by assisting with their terrible clearing and getting them levels and items faster. The Cinderhulk did not help with the early game of the jungle where tanks have the majority of their trouble. The Cinderhulk did not nerf the early game strength of champions who excel at the jungle like Lee Sin The Cinderhulk did not nerf the early aggression and snowballing that has been deemed such a problem by Riot themselves.

To say things are "fixed" with Lee Sin, while never actually addressing him, is to again make the same mistake that Riot made when they created the Season 5 jungle.

Never said he was fixed. He is still strong in the right hands but tanks do have a chance now.

ErockandrollApr 6, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qlOfPPW8,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2015-04-06T09:53:18.230+0000)

It's not because: The Cinderhulk did help move the power spikes of the tank junglers earlier into the game by assisting with their terrible clearing and getting them levels and items faster. The Cinderhulk did not help with the early game of the jungle where tanks have the majority of their trouble. The Cinderhulk did not nerf the early game strength of champions who excel at the jungle like Lee Sin The Cinderhulk did not nerf the early aggression and snowballing that has been deemed such a problem by Riot themselves.

To say things are "fixed" with Lee Sin, while never actually addressing him, is to again make the same mistake that Riot made when they created the Season 5 jungle.

And, is the Early aggression overpowering compared to the Tankyness that CinderHulk gives Tank Junglers?

Really it's not, not when people are declaring it the tank meta.

The early game strength, and snowballing does not need to be fixed if it's comparable to the Jungle tanks. (cause it would mean we actually have strategic diversity. )

FHMarshyApr 6, 20155 votes

Lee is barely strong anymore lmao

CatSithApr 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Lee is barely strong anymore lmao

Still better than elise's current state.

FHMarshyApr 6, 20151 votes

That is true. Just thought Lee whines need to stop lol

RaptameiApr 6, 20154 votes

Unhealthy =/= overpowered.

CatSithApr 6, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Unhealthy =/= overpowered.

and who are you referring that to?

warpenguin555Apr 6, 20153 votes

Lee sin is alot weaker now that champions like sejauni and hecarim are more common in the jungle now

Laughing FishApr 6, 20152 votes

Lee Sin isn't in the top win rate in any division. He is still one of the most popular picks, but people like Sejuani , Sion , and Hecarim remain more powerful. Does Lee still have problems? Sure. But almost every other jungler but him has been receiving buffs (either direct or indirect), and he is no longer the unbreakable powerhouse he used to be.

Nagoh ShanApr 6, 20152 votes

I don't think it's a Lee Sin QQ thread, more a "Why didn't they show the same discretion with Elise as they did Lee Sin" Thread.

It doesn't seem like he cares about Lee, more is frustrated that both Lee and Elise were in incredibly strong shape with adjustments planned, and only Elise received adjustment, while Lee got to remain a strong meta-defining pick.

The question is why wasn't a wait and see approach taken with Elise in the same way it was with Lee Sin?

CatSithApr 6, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nagoh Shan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qlOfPPW8,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-04-06T17:54:57.684+0000)

I don't think it's a Lee Sin QQ thread, more a "Why didn't they show the same discretion with Elise as they did Lee Sin" Thread.

It doesn't seem like he cares about Lee, more is frustrated that both Lee and Elise were in incredibly strong shape with adjustments planned, and only Elise received adjustment, while Lee got to remain a strong meta-defining pick.

The question is why wasn't a wait and see approach taken with Elise in the same way it was with Lee Sin?

Exactly

UdoIkOSc4uApr 6, 20151 votes

yes riot always shove favoritism towards him

Nameless VoiceApr 6, 20151 votes

I must say that announcement depressed me.

Lee Sin isn't no longer the king of the jungle, partly because tank junglers are strong now, and partly because the meta has shifted away from fighter junglers (whether they are effective or not.)

That doesn't mean that Lee Sin's design issues have simply gone away.

He's much less oppressive when he isn't in nearly every game, so his issues aren't as obvious or as much in the front of peoples' minds, but they are still there.

I still want to see him get a small rework so that he has actual properly defined strengths and weaknesses, rather than being good at everything other than "isn't as strong as other picks late-game."

CatSithApr 7, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qlOfPPW8,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-04-06T17:59:16.227+0000)

I must say that announcement depressed me.

Lee Sin isn't no longer the king of the jungle, partly because tank junglers are strong now, and partly because the meta has shifted away from fighter junglers (whether they are effective or not.)

That doesn't mean that Lee Sin's design issues have simply gone away.

He's much less oppressive when he isn't in nearly every game, so his issues aren't as obvious or as much in the front of peoples' minds, but they are still there.

I still want to see him get a small rework so that he has actual properly defined strengths and weaknesses, rather than being good at everything other than "isn't as strong as other picks late-game."

they were planning to move his damage to late game and showed something a long time ago so i cant remember. Dunno if they still have that planned atm though.